God Paradox

[Jack]

such a thing cannot exist if God does.

And if he doesn't? A pebble would qualify.

[Castle]

Quote by: Isherwood And if he doesn't?

Then, obviously, the point is moot. But the thread assumes God exists, and attempts to explore the properties that He would have if He did. Then of it, if you will, as clarifying the definition of God.

[Jack]

I did say it was fun... :)

[Amuse]

The paradox is only a paradox because of human inabillity to comprehend non-linear thinking. Linear thinking dictates that any thing that can be created, manufactured, built, crafted, erected, formed or any other sort of physical manifestation can be moved, altered, destroyed or changed in any way from its original state. God is not of the physical- linear realm. God is Consciousness itself which is non-linear (without begining or end and of no specific physical form) and only exists in our consciousness. He is the life force in all matter, not the matter itself. He is Creation of physical form not physical form itself.

Energy is the base of All That Is and physical form is that energy manifested at a specific resonance (vibration). Water is a good example. At slower vibration it is a solid capable of holding rigid form, at higher vibration it becomes liquid or fluid and in order to be in form must be held by a more dense physical object. At even higher vibration water becomes a gas capable of rising abouve earths surface and mixing with other gasses. In each case it is a different physical manifestation but is remains to be water.

So the paradox is based on linear thinking and is a mental construct of God with human physical limitations.

[Lunar]

God could simply create a rock. and than make himself unable to lift it.
Seeing how god can do anything the fact he can make himself as powerful or as weak as he wants shouldn't be forgotten.

[Castle]

Quote by: Lunar God could simply create a rock. and than make himself unable to lift it.

I disagree. God is perfect. To decrease God's power would cause him to lose her perfection. Not to mention you'd be changing God, who is immutable (and if you want support for that last, just ask).

[Castle]

Quote by: Amuse Linear thinking dictates that any thing that can be created, manufactured, built, crafted, erected, formed or any other sort of physical manifestation can be moved, altered, destroyed or changed in any way from its original state.

God can operate in the "linear thinking" realm. So if you wish, rephrase the question: In our universe (or a similar system that operates "linearly"), can God create a rock so heavy that it cannot be lifted?

[Jagged]

This is pretty much the pettiest of all arguments, and if anybody actually refutes their faith in god through this argument they should be shot. ughh, just thinking about how people actually use this stuff to argue against god makes me so angry.

Rebuttal (from a friggin atheist): God, if anywhere in our 3 dimensional world, probably resides in space, where there is no gravity. The combination of there not being gravity in space (and lets say heaven too, if provincial people want to consider heaven a world similar to ours with 3 dimensions) and God creating the rock, and the fact that god probably doesnt have muscles to lift the rock defying the gravity he created, causes this question to simply not apply to God.

You could just ask the question "could god make gravity so strong that he couldnt even stand up?". -In this case, you have to opposing forces- how big God makes the rock and how strong he makes gravity- both of which he controls. Asking if he can make a rock so heavy as to him not being able to lift it parallels asking if God can make two rocks that are simultaneously larger than each other, or creating a bridge that goes downhill both ways.

Now, stating that God cant create a street that goes downhill both ways simply isnt fair because, well, as you said, its illogical. If he did make it, it the street would contradict all logic that we know of. Its an unfair question

[Castle]

Quote by: Jagged -In this case, you have to opposing forces- how big God makes the rock and how strong he makes gravity- both of which he controls.

Those aren't opposing forces. They both make the rock heavier.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Castle This is patently false. God cannot create a square circle. Why? Because there's no such thing; the very concept contradicts itself. Does this contradict omnipotence? Of course not. It's absurd to suggest that God could do things that cannot, by definition, be done. By the same token, God cannot do immoral things. And by the same token, God cannot create a rock that He cannot lift; such a thing cannot exist if God does.

Did God create logic? If he created everything, we can assume he created logic. If he created logic, we can assume he isn't bound to it.

If he didn't create logic.. I have to question what logic is. It is a married bond between perception and outcome. He created our perception, and he allowed for cause and effect. Yet.. if he didn't create logic..

[Castle]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Did God create logic?

No.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer If he created everything, we can assume he created logic.

It should be self-evident that God did not create everything. He didn't, for instance, create Himself.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer He created our perception, and he allowed for cause and effect.

Did He create His own perception? And He definitely didn't "allow for cause and effect". Being able to create at all implies the existence of causality (He caused something's creation). Without causality, creation is impossible.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Castle No. It should be self-evident that God did not create everything. He didn't, for instance, create Himself. Did He create His own perception? And He definitely didn't "allow for cause and effect". Being able to create at all implies the existence of causality (He caused something's creation). Without causality, creation is impossible.

So, God was designed? And the universe was designed before God even started?

[Kuroko]

This is exactly the same as the other thread, and the one died some how so it would be my honor to kill this one

Here's the EXACT same example I gave on the other topic about this.
God would create the rock that not even he can move, and put it preciselly where he wanted to put such an immovable rock, now you ask.. if god is omnipotant why can he not move this rock, you may ask god to move the rock to which you know he cannot move and god may ask where it is you would want the rock moved to and for no reason you say fifty metres to the left.

The rock, may be unmovable but omnipotance finds a way, the vary surface to which the rock sits could move beneath the rock, the rock ends up where you ask. God himself did not move the rock, yet god caused the rock to move.

Now, onto another topic I have seen here, asking about the limits of god.. 'god cannot do such and such' why is it you say these words when god has been stated as being able to do all. Then I find the statements you made were concerning the things god could CHOSEN not to do, you think of them as limitations and some how forget that we in gods image have morals why on earth can't he?

I can't hit a woman, doesn't mean I can't.. just means that the seccond I did I wouldn't be me any more, I would be a lesser form of me. I would be the me who did hit a woman and that is not some thing I CHOOSE to be.. and yet suddenly the ability to choose has been removed from god?

I'm almost offended by the lack of thought here people

[Castle]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer So, God was designed?

Umm...no. To be designed, one has to be created. God was not created.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer And the universe was designed before God even started?

What's the relevence? But yes, I would imagine God had some sort of design plan going in.

Quote by: Kuroko The rock, may be unmovable but omnipotance finds a way, the vary surface to which the rock sits could move beneath the rock, the rock ends up where you ask. God himself did not move the rock, yet god caused the rock to move.

God moved the rock. This stands in direct contradiction to the claimed 'immovable' property of the rock. You can't get around this with fancy semantics. You're simply not defining 'moved' the same way in both of your examples. You're equivocating.

Quote by: Kuroko Then I find the statements you made were concerning the things god could CHOSEN not to do, you think of them as limitations and some how forget that we in gods image have morals why on earth can't he?

God does. But His are absolute. They cannot be broken, because of God's perfection. To do that which is immoral would be to lose perfection, and that cannot occur.

If this "limit" on omnipotence troubles you, think of it this way. God's inability to do the immoral is a strength, not a weakness. It is a sign of perfection, not a lack of choice. It is only man's moral weakness and lack of perfection that makes immoral actions possible (for man).

[Amuse]

Quote by: Castle Umm...no. To be designed, one has to be created. God was not created. What's the relevence? But yes, I would imagine God had some sort of design plan going in. God moved the rock. This stands in direct contradiction to the claimed 'immovable' property of the rock. You can't get around this with fancy semantics. You're simply not defining 'moved' the same way in both of your examples. You're equivocating. God does. But His are absolute. They cannot be broken, because of God's perfection. To do that which is immoral would be to lose perfection, and that cannot occur. If this "limit" on omnipotence troubles you, think of it this way. God's inability to do the immoral is a strength, not a weakness. It is a sign of perfection, not a lack of choice. It is only man's moral weakness and lack of perfection that makes immoral actions possible (for man).

Wouldn't total imperfection also be considered perfectly imperfect???

If God is perfect in all things and can't sin then commiting a sin is the rock that can't be moved by God.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Castle Umm...no. To be designed, one has to be created. God was not created.

But he was designed? Logic entails design. You said he didn't create logic.

Quote by: Castle What's the relevence? But yes, I would imagine God had some sort of design plan going in.

No, you said he didn't create cause and effect.

Quote by: Castle Did He create His own perception? And He definitely didn't "allow for cause and effect". Being able to create at all implies the existence of causality (He caused something's creation). Without causality, creation is impossible.

I say again, "the universe was designed before God even started?"

[Castle]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer But he was designed? Logic entails design. You said he didn't create logic.

God started with logic. And omnipotence. And omniscience. And morality. And perfection. And a lot of other things. What's the problem here?

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer No, you said he didn't create cause and effect.

See above.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I say again, "the universe was designed before God even started?"

I think I get what you're going for...maybe. Is it a "If causality existed from the beginning, the universe was predetermined"? That's not so. God chose what causes to apply to create the effect, the universe.

[Castle]

Quote by: Amuse Wouldn't total imperfection also be considered perfectly imperfect???

No. Perfection=/=Imperfection, by definition.

Quote by: Amuse If God is perfect in all things and can't sin then commiting a sin is the rock that can't be moved by God.

The second half of that second makes absolutely no sense. Please reword.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Castle God can operate in the "linear thinking" realm. So if you wish, rephrase the question: In our universe (or a similar system that operates "linearly"), can God create a rock so heavy that it cannot be lifted?

This question is still incomplete based on the premiss of the first question. Besides, the linear realm is illusionary and is only a subjective experience. The physical realm is in constant flux so no-thing is permanent (as in a rock that can't be moved) staying in it's original form. That's why the question is irrelavent and would only be pardoxical if form/ forms never changed. In fact, if something were to be physically permanent (meaning : for all eternity) THAT would be the ultimate pardox. Permanence would lead to the end of Creation.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Castle No. Perfection=/=Imperfection, by definition. I think it does. The second half of that second makes absolutely no sense. Please reword.

If God can't sin, to me then, sin is the perverbial "rock" that God can't move.