Understanding fundamental Christianity

[Kyran]

Greetings ladies and gentlemen,

Let's have a nice discussion on the very basics of fundamental Christianity. We will start with a few ground rules.

1. Your words are not my words.
2. Christianity excludes Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
3. Do not flame me for what some fundie said to you.

I feel that I have to start from the bottom up with this because nearly everyone I talk to about the faith is completely wrong about it. Religion is a very interesting subject that reveals the best and worst of people. The children of today repeat the same arguments that occurred 500 years ago. Some people still believe God is a wicked mean spirit that can't wait to roast the majority of humanity for it's disobedience.

Hell is not an eternal destination. It is the lobby. You can get a good glimpse of what Hell is like from reading Jesus's story about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus. The rich man doesn't appear to be in agony. Note that Abraham actually appeared to this person where he could see him from Hell. Now, if you or I were dead and in heaven where is the last place we'd probably want to go for a stroll? That's right, down under. So, I'm guessing Abraham was up to something; possibly trying to help the unsaved get it right before Judgment Day. Wow that's a completely different conclusion than we'd get from watching South Park the Movie isn't it?

Jesus lived a sinless life and died on the cross for our sins. The famous quote "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" is a reference to the Psalm which prophecizes His death. "They have pierced my hands and my feet..." Yet the notion is prevalent that Jesus "sinned" on the cross. Yeah, whatever.

Salvation (and becoming a REAL Christian) requires faith. God by grace gives us this gift freely, but it is up to us to truly accept it. Faith without works, like a change in personality, is dead. If your faith is dead, so is the rest of you. This is why I cop an attitude with people who SAY they're Christians but aren't. It is not faith to mentally acknowledge the existence of God. It's faith to trust that God with your destination post life. Satan acknowledges God's existence; and logically there is no way he is part of the faithful. Faith is both a gift of the Holy Ghost, and comes by hearing the gospel.

Christians are not doormats. Jesus said if a man smites us on one cheek, turn to him the other. That means "bring it." It does not mean be a pushover. It does not mean forgive that person on the spot and encourage them to smack you again. Yes Jesus said Love our enemies, but Jesus also said Love our neighbor as ourselves, not more than ourselves: that's co-dependency and is not love in the first place.

The bible is not our God. The individual most of you would consider to be a "FFFFFFFFFFFUNDIE" will worship this book as his idol before your very eyes. He will call it the Word of God. He will call it flawless. He will do whatever he can to try to convince you it is perfect. Well I'm here to give everyone the heads up that Christians do not worship the gospel. The gospel is the message we carry. As you can see from the different accounts in it, even we are not above human error. We are not machines and we are never going to be. If God wanted a programmable robot to send his message, then He would have created one.

I don't want to talk very much about the FUNDIES out there in the world. But I do want to cover this. I don't think God is very happy about the picture of Him they have painted for you. Would it be any surprise to you to know that fundies will even tell other Christians to get saved or they are gonna go to Hell? Jesus NEVER ordered us to do this. Christians are supposed to spread the gospel, not doom and gloom. And heck, who originated these ideas that Hell was "eternal punishment" anyway? The fundies did.

Remember, one fundie got on TV and told America that 9/11 happened because we accept homosexuals! BLAH BLAH BLAH. Our God punished you bad bad people cuz you wouldn't let us control you!

Can we agree that the fundies and God are not on the same side then?

Good, then let's get some feedback and questions. You can ask me about anything that doesn't make SENSE at this point. I'd be happy to help. Do us a favor and check the 40 objections section of www.carm.org before asking FAQs here though. That'll save us time and avoid repeating history.

[Paul]

Are all the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons excluded, why are they excluded?

[Gorgo]

Bear with me here. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand, so let me sum up what I'm hearing, and you tell me if that's what you thought you said. You're telling me that Christianity is the thing that you say it is and the rest are not really Christians, much like the rest of the people who say that they understand Christianity and say that you don't really understand what Christianity is and so you're not a real Christian?

[Elijah]

If hell is not eternal punishment, then what is it smartie.

[Kyran]

Paul, read the Book of Mormon. It does not teach the message of Jesus. It teaches the message of Joseph Smith. The message is that polygamy is OKIE DOKEY, and that humans can become gods. It's not the message of Salvation. If you can prove otherwise, I will change my mind. However, I have read Joseph Smith's own words in a trial record before. I do not see any person with his attitude teaching the faith, nor do I believe his following is a part of it.

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm
The JW organization has added stuff into scripture to back up their non-scriptural beliefs. Compare bibles.

http://www.carm.org/jw/false_prophecies.htm
Compare prophecies too.

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Gorgo, I see how you can read it that way. But think about this. There is one gospel with one message. There are divers beliefs about what the gospel says. Who is actually interested in sharing the gospel with you? Is it the people telling you doom & gloom, or is it the people who tell you stuff you didn't already know?

Watch. I'll do it again.

Jesus: Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.

Deut. 10:14 -- To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.

If everything belongs to God, then what rightfully belongs to Caesar? Yet this quote of Jesus is used to justify taxation. Also notice "turn the other cheek" is used to justify being a doormat! Do you see the trend among people who try to use religion to justify their actions? It's the old "I'm just following orders" trick that the evildoer's henchmen use to try to get out of justice.

I'm trying to prove some authenticity here. The only way I can really do that is by spreading the actual gospel, not the code of fundie intolerance and closed-mindedness. Why should you believe their take on the bible without verifying every bit of it? If anyone out there does not believe in God, then why believe the fundie message either? Check the facts yourself. I did.

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Elijah, it's the lobby, einstein. Have you forgotten Jesus said that we shall account for every word we have uttered before He who sits on the Throne? Given what the rich man was saying in Jesus's parable, and the fact that his tongue was suffering, what temperature are you working towards?

[Paul]

There more than a dozen families of protestant denominations, and thousands of individual christian faith groups -- over 1,000 in North America alone. Some of these groups believe that they are the only true Christian church. How would one find the true Christian church There appears to be no clear, obvious choice. But the ones that have already chosen a church believe that their own denominations is the true Christian church. What puzzles me is that they all believe in the same Jesus?, and the same God?

Peace be with you, Paul

[Mia]

Originally posted by Gorgo, Bear with me here. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand, so let me sum up what I'm hearing, and you tell me if that's what you thought you said. You're telling me that Christianity is the thing that you say it is and the rest are not really Christians, much like the rest of the people who say that they understand Christianity and say that you don't really understand what Christianity is and so you're not a real Christian?

Yes, that's exactly what he's saying.

[Samildanach]

[quote]If your faith is dead, so is the rest of you.


I seem to be pretty alive and kicking at the moment. Both of my parents were atheists and I was never brought up to believe in anything except myself.
I have no need of faith. Faith is for weaklings.

[Mia]

[quote=Samildanach,]

If your faith is dead, so is the rest of you. I seem to be pretty alive and kicking at the moment. Both of my parents were atheists and I was never brought up to believe in anything except myself. I have no need of faith. Faith is for weaklings.

Oh, that's where you are dead wrong. Faith is hard. REALLY hard.

[Paul]

Fundamental Christians believe?

Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife,

WIVES, submitt yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over man, but to be in slience.

Womem shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Train the younger women---to be subject to their husbands.

Fundamental Christians believe this is the word of God out of the writings of St.Paul, but many don't follow his this teaching.

[PatrickHenry]

I am not a Bible literalist. Judgement is required in every endeavor. That includes my life journey with God.

[Elijah]

Kyran, try replying to me with something that makes sense. I don't take nonunderstandable Bull. you have explained nothing in my opinion. Yes we shall account for everything, but before heaven or hell. I can't remember the exact verse, but it says(about hell) "...the worm is never quenched..."I think the hell is not punisment, or hell is not eternal is for people who want to feel better about their fate.

[floridian]

The message is that polygamy is OKIE DOKE

My (non-Mormon) Bible seems to say that polygamy is OKIE DOKIE - religious leaders like Abraham and Solomon had more than one wife. The only prohibition against polygamy was directed at Kings, not at all believers. (Kings were also prohibited from breeding horses, and having great wealth).

I am not Mormon or Jehovahs Witness, but I wouldnt go so far as to say they are not Christian. If they belief in Jesus, then they are Christian.

[Mia]

Well, they believe in Joseph smith more than Jesus. And there are huge contradictions to the Bible in the Book of Mormon. Jesus is not their way to the Lord as is Christians.

Just for grins, though, the Bible also calls for stoning to death a woman who cannot prove she was a virgin on her wedding night, stoning adulderors, and for a rapist to marry his victim (as an added bonus for her).

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by floridian, My (non-Mormon) Bible seems to say that polygamy is OKIE DOKIE - religious leaders like Abraham and Solomon had more than one wife. The only prohibition against polygamy was directed at Kings, not at all believers. (Kings were also prohibited from breeding horses, and having great wealth). I am not Mormon or Jehovahs Witness, but I wouldnt go so far as to say they are not Christian. If they belief in Jesus, then they are Christian.

Interesting. Where in the Bible does it specifically prohibit polygamy?

[Kyran]

Originally posted by Paul,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>How would one find the true Christian church?[/b]

Hello friend. Did you forget about your conscience? Wouldn't you know if you were among the deceitful? The only thing one has to do is set one foot in front the other. God takes care of the rest.

Originally posted by Samildanch,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Samildanch,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I seem to be pretty alive and kicking at the moment. Both of my parents were atheists and I was never brought up to believe in anything except myself. I have no need of faith. Faith is for weaklings.[/b]

My words are not your words. Dead means dead-spirited. Is reading for weaklings too in your book? One thing I wonder: if you have no need of faith, then why have you need to insult those who do? Looks like you need others so that you can feel good about yourself. Try making friends. Then you'll feel good about yourself and you won't need us Christians anymore.

Troll.

<!--QuoteBegin-Elijah,@
Kyran, try replying to me with something that makes sense. I don't take nonunderstandable Bull. you have explained nothing in my opinion. Yes we shall account for everything, but before heaven or hell. I can't remember the exact verse, but it says(about hell) "...the worm is never quenched..."I think the hell is not punisment, or hell is not eternal is for people who want to feel better about their fate.[/quote]

Then understand everything:

Your attitude is wrong. It is not righteous. I explained what Hell is, gave my theory on it, and you copped an attitude; asking me to explain it AGAIN. A truth-seeker will not do such a thing. Hey, maybe you care more about being offended than being wrong about the Lord. I don't expect you to act this way and whenever you want to drop it is fine by me.

Yes you shall account for everything said, because you are under the Old Law and the Old Faith. I see it. I smell it. I can taste the Jew in you. You have already forgotten Jesus died for your sins. If you believed it, you would've rebuked me easily. What is your faith if it breaks under such mild pressure?

What is wrong with making the unsaved feel better? Will they hate God as much if they understand Hell is not what men exaggerated it as? You are clever to worry that men should think themselves free of judgment without Jesus. For you would not have them come to God but in Fear of Him. The devil too would like to bring men in fear before the Lord, so that he may accuse them of breaking the first commandment. How can one possibly love the Almighty if all they do is worry that He's going to incinerate them? Is our utmost commandment FEAR THY GOD or LOVE THY GOD?! Then WHICH should we teach to the unknowing?

Only the God of Forces would want you to teach that Fear to the world, Elijah. It is his commandment, not our Lord's. Fear cheating on our God like a wife. Fear lying or breaking promises to Him like a friend. But do not live in fear of a punishment that Jesus has redeemed us from; else you serve Fear himself and spread his religion, his dark works, and his blasphemy. Evil controls men by fear.

Wake up. The things we fear, we avoid. The things we fear, we allow to happen. If we fear judgment, we will avoid it and allow it to happen...thinking we can do nothing to stop it...doubting the value of Jesus's promise.

I see this Jewishness using Christianity everywhere. Men teach their children to fear God. Men explain what happens if one does not believe in Jesus. Understanding only punishment, the meek follow in line surrendering to the wrong faith...the Blind faith...the faith in fear alone.

So understand. I try to give you the fear you give others, in hopes that you won't do it anymore.

<!--QuoteBegin-floridian,
My (non-Mormon) Bible seems to say that polygamy is OKIE DOKIE[/quote]

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

Jesus is Savior and Judge...

John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man

...and Executor.

Love thy God with all your heart and mind.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.

This is the Law. How many men here would believe a wife loves them if she brought home a second husband?

Do Mormons teach that Jesus is Judge? Absolutely not. Just like the Muslims claim they believe Jesus is a prophet, but they do not believe He Is God Like He Said He Is. How does one believe another to be a prophet and disbelieve the prophecy?

Also, how does believing in Jesus's existence make one Christian? The pharisees believed Jesus existed too. Some Atheists believe Jesus existed. The hard part for people is believing Jesus is God (and Judge). Jesus said He is God. He tells all us humans to get along, and somehow...somehow...somehow...PEOPLE do not believe Jesus is God.

John 12:47-48
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

This guy isn't God? You nonbelievers are free. Jesus came to save the Jews and the Christians and every man who walks in blind faith...because they walk into the ditch. To "receive not my words" is to be closed-minded; it means "refusing to listen."

Ahhhh...the fundies so often forget to mention that part don't they? What do they tell you for not believing in Jesus? "You are going to Hell." Too bad Jesus says otherwise, or the fake twisted hate-filled blasphemers would actually succeed in turning the world into a New Age Theocracy.

Right now, the only way anyone is going to equate the Church with the Faith is if they call Jesus a liar and call the Church-version of the gospel the Truth. Logically, this is self-refuting.

The lawfuls have always wanted to save others from themselves. Over the years it evolved from the word religion to government...security to order.

Are there any more questions from the audience?

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Kyran, Hello friend. Did you forget about your conscience? Wouldn't you know if you were among the deceitful? The only thing one has to do is set one foot in front the other. God takes care of the rest.

Too often used and vague.

Right now, the only way anyone is going to equate the Church with the Faith is if they call Jesus a liar and call the Church-version of the gospel the Truth. Logically, this is self-refuting. The lawfuls have always wanted to save others from themselves. Over the years it evolved from the word religion to government...security to order. Are there any more questions from the audience?

Need to be more specific to respond well. It was dificult to define your position.

[Paul]

["Interesting. Where in the Bible does it specifically prohibit polygamy?"]

I have not found any scripture in the bible that prohibits polygamy.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Paul, ["Interesting. Where in the Bible does it specifically prohibit polygamy?"] I have not found any scripture in the bible that prohibits polygamy.

Neither have I!

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Paul, ["Interesting. Where in the Bible does it specifically prohibit polygamy?"] I have not found any scripture in the bible that prohibits polygamy.

Only for leaders:

Tit 1:6 Men having a good record, husbands of one wife, whose children are of the faith, children of whom it may not be said that they are given to loose living or are uncontrolled.

1Timothy 3:2 The Bishop, then, is to be a man of good name, the husband of one wife, self-controlled, serious-minded, having respect for order, opening his house freely to guests, a ready teacher;

Obviously monogamy is considered virtuous.