1037 Absurdities in the Bible

[RickSp]

Quote by: DTB123 I would like to respectfully submit that a professing Christian does not a Christian make.

I suppose before anyone can consider themselves a Christian they need to get a note from DTB123, or perhaps a designated representative. With a waive of his hand he dismisses the religious faith of millions of Christians living and dead.

Here is a fine example of how and why Christians and the followers of other religions are so prone to go war with each other. DTB123 and others claim that the millions who thought of themselves as Christians throughout history and whose lives were shaped by their faiths were in fact, not Christians. It is the perfect excuse and escape, and the perfect justification for almost any action against the apostate.

History is full of bloody examples of Christians slaughtering Christians over differences in doctrine. Now several on this board are claiming that those engaged in this slaughter are retroactively not Christians, a nearly surrealistic slight of hand that fools no one, except perhaps the practitioners of the card trick. Once again, faith demands belief at the expense of an obvious truth.

[DTB123]

Quote by: RickSp I suppose before anyone can consider themselves a Christian they need to get a note from DTB123, or perhaps a designated representative. With a waive of his hand he dismisses the religious faith of millions of Christians living and dead. Here is a fine example of how and why Christians and the followers of other religions are so prone to go war with each other. DTB123 and others claim that the millions who thought of themselves as Christians throughout history and whose lives were shaped by their faiths were in fact, not Christians. It is the perfect excuse and escape, and the perfect justification for almost any action against the apostate. History is full of bloody examples of Christians slaughtering Christians over differences in doctrine. Now several on this board are claiming that those engaged in this slaughter are retroactively not Christians, a nearly surrealistic slight of hand that fools no one, except perhaps the practitioners of the card trick. Once again, faith demands belief at the expense of an obvious truth.

Hello Rick

I am trying to say here that if any individual or group tries to use the Bible to justify things like the Crusades, or other killing/torture, "in the name of Christ;" then they are not Christians. "Slaughter" as per your post above is not a part of the religion of Jesus Christ.

To be a Christian, one has to be like Jesus. They have to have his character. There were actually 8 main crusades during the inquisition years. None of them can be supported by the Bible alone.

Are you telling us that just because some Pope or other religious leader waves a Bible around while slaughtering dissenters; that this makes it "Christian?"

History is plagued with people and religions who try to confuse the issue by justifying their actions under the banner of Christ. Why do they do that Rick? Is it really because they are true Christians?

Nowhere in my posts have I excused "christian" slaughtering of dissenters. I know that people have traditionally thought of certain religions or denominations as being Christian; but is it not possible that "in the name of Christ" has been misunderstood, and therefore not portrayed correctly through the actions of our pet religious leaders over the span of history, after the birth of Christ? There is such a thing as false revivals. The only reason we don't have trouble with counterfeit 3 dollar bills is because there is no such thing as a real one. But with Christianity, there is a real Christian, and there are many counterfeits. That's not rocket science. It's a plain fact that not all who say they are christians, are in fact Christians.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lu 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

[Matt W]

Quote by: DTB123 Ok, fair enough. Let me try to clarify here for this post. You are telling us that (lets use the Pope, for just one of many possible eg.s), the Pope has "devoted his entire life to study of the Bible;" and that we should blindly trust, because of this, that he would know that "Just War" or the Crusades of the Inquisition were "acceptable;" better than we could know? Are you saying that because he, or someone else has studied the Bible their entire life, that they have a right to condone killing in the name of "religion" or "Christianity?" Are you trying to tell us here that because of the pet doctrines of professing Christians, we need to swallow the contention that the Bible condones killing butchery and torture in the name of Christ? I would like to respectfully submit that a professing Christian does not a Christian make. Our words have to have a little more than skin on them to be real. As I said above; Jesus Himself puts it this way: What kind of "fruit" has been provided for us by the Inquisition, or by "Just War?" Or by any killing, supposedly in the name of Christ? I doubt that any "scholar" could provide Bible proof that the Bible supports what the Koran seems to support. And why do we need to be a "scholar" to read and understand the Bible? I can read just as well as anyone else, the Pope included. I have also studied the Bible all my life; and I definitely do not have the same opinion as the zionist "scholars" that our world is plagued with. ( I do not mean the Pope with that comment re Zionist). Zionists are responsible, just as much as the Koran for all kinds of killing and wars. Zionists, thoughbthey quote scripture all the time, still are not Christians and they cannot support their garbage from the Bible. I am glad that the Scriptures teach us something better. Maybe it is "idealistic" Matt; I don't know, but I do know that it won't hurt to try!!

Indeed, I appreciate your thoughts, but you have to admit that the history of Christianity is full of bloody and ugly deeds. Regardless of what individuals such as yourselves think, the perception of humanity across the globe is that the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc, were perpetrated by people that not only believed themselves to be Christians, but also had official sanction to do so. In essence, what you're saying is that Christianity didnt exist during the Middle Ages....which no-one is willing to accept.

As for the scholars....well. You study the Bible as a hobby, or as part of your faith, I assume? The monks & priests who sanctioned these horrific deeds spent time in study as a proffession, almost - if not more. You'd probably call it obsessed, in these days and ages. These were the sort of people who actually decided what form the Bible should take, who molded and shaped early Christianity. And the simple fact of the matter is that Europe was a harsh place - so Christianity, in turn, became harsh to survive. Simply dimissing the millions of people who lived through these times as 'not Christian' is uncharitable at best, and callous at worst. They did what they thought they had to do - and let Christianity survive.

I'd like to point out that I don't condone it - but you can't just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend they weren't Christian. I hope that comes across clearly in my post.

[DTB123]

Quote by: Matt W Indeed, I appreciate your thoughts, but you have to admit that the history of Christianity is full of bloody and ugly deeds. Regardless of what individuals such as yourselves think, the perception of humanity across the globe is that the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc, were perpetrated by people that not only believed themselves to be Christians, but also had official sanction to do so. In essence, what you're saying is that Christianity didnt exist during the Middle Ages....which no-one is willing to accept. As for the scholars....well. You study the Bible as a hobby, or as part of your faith, I assume? The monks & priests who sanctioned these horrific deeds spent time in study as a proffession, almost - if not more. You'd probably call it obsessed, in these days and ages. These were the sort of people who actually decided what form the Bible should take, who molded and shaped early Christianity. And the simple fact of the matter is that Europe was a harsh place - so Christianity, in turn, became harsh to survive. Simply dimissing the millions of people who lived through these times as 'not Christian' is uncharitable at best, and callous at worst. They did what they thought they had to do - and let Christianity survive. I'd like to point out that I don't condone it - but you can't just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend they weren't Christian. I hope that comes across clearly in my post.

Hi Matt

I think I understand a bit of what you are saying here. I know the societal mind-set is strongly in favor of "carreer scholars" as somehow being more eminent and knowledgeable in Bible study, and Bible knowledge. I also understand that the traditional mindset also insists that leaders of the Inquisition or the Crusades, or the modern day ones like Koresh, or Zionists, or whoever, are all "Christians."

There are many Christians, world-wide who question this status quo dogma, spoon-fed to us by all the pomp and display of our worldy potentates. If you have ever read the writings of ones such as Jonathan Edwards, you too would hopefully begin to question: "What is true "revival?" Is that kind of stuff really "Christian?"

I have no trouble agreeing that the history of "Christianity" is rife with violence; my questions start when they try to support it by the Bible.

You know, I am reminded of some people that have come across my path, who would show up any leader of the Inquisition. For eg., I had a friend a few years ago who was in hospital for advanced Muscular Dystrophy. When in a wheel-chair, she only had use of her arms from the elbows down. This lady wanted to do something special for me, because I was doing volunteer work visiting her regularly.

One Christmas, she presented me with a rough-looking ceramic jug (flower vase). It looked quite attractive, but you could see a bunch of flaws in it. I was so shocked to hear that she had made this all by herself. It took her over 6 months to do this little vase for me because of her handi-cap. What an amazing sacrifice and gift of love this was!

She phoned me up from over 2500 miles away the day she was dying. I stayed on the phone with her until it was over; and when the nurse came on the phone to tell me that she was gone; I looked at the vase, and said: "There was a true Christian."

When I compare this kind of Christian to the kind that conducts crusades and murders and torture; I see a wide gulf of difference. I sure hope you do too. We have been duped by many religious leaders in the past; they are religionists; not Christians.

BTW, my friend only knew 5 or 6 Bible verses. But; if we know even one verse, the way she did; we would be busy turning our swords into "plowshares."

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Phds, Masters of Divinity, Papal Authority - none of it is going to accomplish this. History shows this. Prophecy fortells it. Only a true Christian can be a Christian. Professors of religion are plentiful; it is a rare breed that actually does try to live up to the Bible standard. The Bible does not support all the killing that so called Christians have done and intend to do.

[Jack]

I looked at the vase, and said: "There was a true Christian."

Why not "there was a truly wonderful human being"? That way her example can be appreciated by all, not just other christians.

[RickSp]

It takes more than selectively quoting Bible verses to make two millennia of Christian history simply disappear. Defining millions of the faithful out of existence is less than convincing as well.

Obviously any criticism you may have of other religions can also be immediately countered by saying that oh, but they are not real Muslims or real Jews or real Buddhists or whatever. Likewise your selective quoting of the Bible and your choice to ignore the unpleasant sections (or twisting them into meaningless rhetorical pretzels), works both ways, you see.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

The earth shakes, the foundations of heaven move, smoke comes out of God's nostrils, and fire out of his mouth. 2 Samuel 22:8-16

And God said: "First let me get a little high..."

[DTB123]

Quote by: RickSp It takes more than selectively quoting Bible verses to make two millennia of Christian history simply disappear. Defining millions of the faithful out of existence is less than convincing as well. Obviously any criticism you may have of other religions can also be immediately countered by saying that oh, but they are not real Muslims or real Jews or real Buddhists or whatever. Likewise your selective quoting of the Bible and your choice to ignore the unpleasant sections (or twisting them into meaningless rhetorical pretzels), works both ways, you see.

Good rationalizing Rick & Isherwood. :confused: