1037 Absurdities in the Bible

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tinybear Wow, hostile crowd over at ODN.

I know, it's freaking hilarious. I've been banned from that site like twice so far.

[DTB123]

Quote by: RickSp As I wasn't responding your post I had nothing to say to its specifics. Are you a Christian bigot? I don't know. You tell me. Most Christians aren't. However, lots of Christians have taken to quoting the Koran to demonstrate how horrible Islam is while completely ignoring verses that every bit as ugly as anything in the so called "sword verses of the Koran. Most Christians seem happy quoting the Ten Commandments while ignoring other sections of the Mosaic code which can be rather offensive at best.

OK Rick, fair enough. What is something specific that you are referring to as "offensive?" Is it something you found at an anti-christian site to cut and paste here; or do you have something that you have discovered yourself?

[RickSp]

Quote by: DTB123 OK Rick, fair enough. What is something specific that you are referring to as "offensive?" Is it something you found at an anti-christian site to cut and paste here; or do you have something that you have discovered yourself?

Of the 600 some odd laws laid down in the Mosaic Code there are some real doozies. Most Christians feel very comfortable with the "honor thy father and mother" commandment but ignore the "kill the disrespectful child" verses that I quoted in a previous post.

I got interested in the various uglines in the Bible when folks who had far less knowledge of the Koran than I have of the Bibile started quoting the Koranic "sword verses" but were obviously unaware of equally ugly verses in the Bible.

It is perfectly reasonable to ignore the uglier verses in the Mosaic Code. Even the strictest Fundamentalists don't claim that everyone need keep kosher, for example. Nor obviously would any sane person recommend killing disrepectful children nor putting to death those who violate the Sabbath. (Exodus 31:14) or killing those of other faiths (Deuteronomy 12:2-3).

Of course, Christians can disavow the Mosaic Code, but to be consistent that would have to include the Ten Commandments. One also has to dance around Matthew 5:17 - "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil," as indeed many Christian theologians attempt to do.

[DTB123]

Quote by: RickSp Of the 600 some odd laws laid down in the Mosaic Code there are some real doozies. Most Christians feel very comfortable with the "honor thy father and mother" commandment but ignore the "kill the disrespectful child" verses that I quoted in a previous post. I got interested in the various uglines in the Bible when folks who had far less knowledge of the Koran than I have of the Bibile started quoting the Koranic "sword verses" but were obviously unaware of equally ugly verses in the Bible. It is perfectly reasonable to ignore the uglier verses in the Mosaic Code. Even the strictest Fundamentalists don't claim that everyone need keep kosher, for example. Nor obviously would any sane person recommend killing disrepectful children nor putting to death those who violate the Sabbath. (Exodus 31:14) or killing those of other faiths (Deuteronomy 12:2-3). Of course, Christians can disavow the Mosaic Code, but to be consistent that would have to include the Ten Commandments. One also has to dance around Matthew 5:17 - "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil," as indeed many Christian theologians attempt to do.

Thanks, and can you tell me where the "kill the child" verse is please?

[RickSp]

Quote by: DTB123 Thanks, and can you tell me where the "kill the child" verse is please?

I quoted three versions in post #18.

Leviticus 20:9
Exodus 21:17
Deuteronomy 21:17-21

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Quote by: RickSp However, lots of Christians have taken to quoting the Koran to demonstrate how horrible Islam is while completely ignoring verses that every bit as ugly

I don't understand your point. Are Christians crashing airplanes into buildings in the name of christianity?

You need to explain why you discount the difference between theory and practice.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Flea_Bit_Monkey I don't understand your point. Are Christians crashing airplanes into buildings in the name of christianity? You need to explain why you discount the difference between theory and practice.

Read my post. It had nothing to do with reconciling theory and practice. To repeat myself, I was commenting that many Christians, including some on these boards and several well known evangelicals, Franklin Graham comes to mind, have attacked Islam by quoting the nastier parts of the Koran while ignoring equally ugly verses in the Bible.

I hope that you aren't implying that Muslims as a group, all 1.2 billion of them, are those who fly airplanes into buildings. A small group of Ismaic extremists did indeed attack on 9/11, just as a Christian extremist blew up the Murragh building in Oklahoma City to avenge the deaths of a Christian cult in Waco.

If you want to imply that Bin Laden represents all Muslims, then you shouldn't mind if I suggest that all Christians are represented by Timothy McVeigh. Both statements are equally absurd and for the same reason.

[DTB123]

Quote by: RickSp I quoted three versions in post #18. Leviticus 20:9 Exodus 21:17 Deuteronomy 21:17-21

Lev.20

Vs. 1 tells us “The Lord spake…” but we can note here that most of the offences mentioned in Lev. 20 have been discussed at length, also, in chapters 18 & 19. If you read those chapters, the appeal to the people then was purely on a spiritual basis; it was an appeal to their sense of right.

As I said before, the Bible does not seek to avoid the ugly stuff; and here in Lev.20 we see that all of these offenses are in fact considered by the people of that time as an offense by the state; and therefore would be punishable, in most cases by death. (by the state, not by God). What I like about God is that He will allow us to go our own way, but that does not always indicate His endorsement of what we want to do. God gives us an inch, but too often we take a mile. In Lev.20; God was facing the reality that the civil penalties for all these offenses would be death; and He is warning the people about these offenses to try and save them from those penalties. But God does not reflect endorsement of these penalties for anyone either then or today.

It is a different story with the Koran. President Bush addressed a joint session of Congress, shortly after 9/11:

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics; a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans and make no distinctions among military and civilians; including women and children... I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself...In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may he watch over the United States of America... (AP, Sept. 20, 2001, emphasis added)

While these statements reflect Western ‘politically correct’ opinion, unfortunately, they are not the truth. While countless Muslims are peaceful and oppose terrorism, the ugly reality is that Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and many other terrorist organizations, are not perverting Islam, but are Allah’s truest followers. The inspiration behind their horrendous deeds, including blowing up their own bodies amidst innocent civilians, is the Koran itself. These loyalists within “the Armies of Allah” will stop at nothing until the world becomes Muslim. It’s time the world woke up and realized this.

The following quotes are taken from M. H. Shakir’s translation of the Qur’an (Tahrike Tarsile Qur’an, Inc., New York):
 Surah II: 98 – “Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.”
 Surah II: 191-193 – “Kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them….Fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah.”
 Surah II: 216 – “Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.”
 Surah III: 19 – “Surely the true religion with Allah is Islam…and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.”
Surah IV: 104 – “Be not weak in pursuit of the enemy.”
 Surah V: 51 – “O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whosoever among you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.”
 Surah VIII: 12 – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.”
 Surah VIII: 15-17 – “O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, turn not your backs to them. Whoever shall turn his back to them on that day – unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company – then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell… So you did not slay them, but it was Allah who slew them…that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.”
 Surah IX: 29 – “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth… until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”
 Surah IX:33 – “[Allah] it is who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though polytheists may be averse.”
 Surah IX: 73 – “O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination.”
 Surah IX: 123 – “O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in your hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).”

These are obviously orders from the Koran, for Allah’s followers today. Thank God that many Muslims see the value in reflecting God’s way of peace, instead of this stuff. In Lev.20., vs. 7 God says: “be ye holy…for I am the Lord your God.” He has much higher aims for us than the persecuting and butchery by the “civil powers” that be.

[RickSp]

You provide a fine example of that of which I speak - Christians condemning Muslims based on a text for which they haven't really got the first clue, while ignoring or dismissing the exact same sort of thing in the Bible..

You dismiss the ugliness of the Mosaic code with transparently feeble verbiage and then start quoting the Koran. Your argument is actually quite funny.

In Lev.20; God was facing the reality that the civil penalties for all these offenses would be death; and He is warning the people about these offenses to try and save them from those penalties. But God does not reflect endorsement of these penalties for anyone either then or today.

LOL. Here you have your almighty God addressing his Chosen People about his law and yet you represent it that God is warning others about not violating civil law? Excuse me but that is pure gibberish and completely out of context.

Then you quote the Koran but ignore verses that I have already cited.

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Deuteronomy 7:2 These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. 2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places. Deuteronomy 12:1-3

And it goes on and on. The verses are all there, even if you choose to ignore them or create your little fictions around them.

Your real claim that "Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and many other terrorist organizations, are not perverting Islam, but are Allah’s truest followers," is ignorant bigotry at is very finest. You obviously must be a great Islamic scholar in order to be able to make such an assertion, to dictate to the billion or so Muslims who have nothing to do with the conflict in the Middle East or any of the extremist groups you cite, what is "true Islam." If you are, as I suspect, not some great Islamic scholar, then all that is evident are your biases, your ignorance, and your arrogance.

Of course, it would be just as easy to quote from teh Bible and to declare the Crusaders who burned and pillaged in their bloody Crusades at the pope's command of Dieu le veut!, to be the only true Christians and claim all others are apostate. It would be a ridiculous argument, but no more so than your claim that Islam is inherently a terrorist religion.

[DTB123]

Quote by: RickSp You provide a fine example of that of which I speak - Christians condemning Muslims based on a text for which they haven't really got the first clue, while ignoring or dismissing the exact same sort of thing in the Bible.. You dismiss the ugliness of the Mosaic code with transparently feeble verbiage and then start quoting the Koran. Your argument is actually quite funny. LOL. Here you have your almighty God addressing his Chosen People about his law and yet you represent it that God is warning others about not violating civil law? Excuse me but that is pure gibberish and completely out of context. Then you quote the Koran but ignore verses that I have already cited. And it goes on and on. The verses are all there, even if you choose to ignore them or create your little fictions around them. Your real claim that "Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and many other terrorist organizations, are not perverting Islam, but are Allah’s truest followers," is ignorant bigotry at is very finest. You obviously must be a great Islamic scholar in order to be able to make such an assertion, to dictate to the billion or so Muslims who have nothing to do with the conflict in the Middle East or any of the extremist groups you cite, what is "true Islam." If you are, as I suspect, not some great Islamic scholar, then all that is evident are your biases, your ignorance, and your arrogance. Of course, it would be just as easy to quote from teh Bible and to declare the Crusaders who burned and pillaged in their bloody Crusades at the pope's command of Dieu le veut!, to be the only true Christians and claim all others are apostate. It would be a ridiculous argument, but no more so than your claim that Islam is inherently a terrorist religion.

You obviously must be a great Biblical scholar Rick. If you want to clutch at straws and say I am bigoted against Al Qaeda & the others above named, then help yourself.

You have proved nothing. Your example of a Christian, by using the Pope, may not in fact be the best example of a Christian, and the Bible's world-view for Christians today.

I did not ignore any texts. I chose to initially address, only Lev.20 with you for the sake of brevity. I will be glad to address some of your other texts, when you can do more than just summarily dismiss my commentary re Lev.20 with whining complaints of bigotry or poor Biblical exegesis. Why don't you try giving us a better examination of why my suggested context for Lev.20 is so wrong? Tell us from the Bible why I am wrong.

[RickSp]

Quote by: DTB123 You obviously must be a great Biblical scholar Rick. If you want to clutch at straws and say I am bigoted against Al Qaeda & the others above named, then help yourself. You have proved nothing. Your example of a Christian, by using the Pope, may not in fact be the best example of a Christian, and the Bible's world-view for Christians today. I did not ignore any texts. I chose to initially address, only Lev.20 with you for the sake of brevity. I will be glad to address some of your other texts, when you can do more than just summarily dismiss my commentary re Lev.20 with whining complaints of bigotry or poor Biblical exegesis. Why don't you try giving us a better examination of why my suggested context for Lev.20 is so wrong? Tell us from the Bible why I am wrong.

I am confident that I know more of the Bible than you do of the Koran. And I have no interest in arguing about your torturous twisting of one particular verse of Leviticus, especially as you ignore the other verses I cited and the larger issue entirely.

Also, I never suggested that your bigotry is addressed only toward AlQaeda. You have made it perfectly clear that you consider Islam itself to be a terrorist religion. The nature of your bigotry is quite clear.

If anyone is interested here is a good comparison of Koranic "Sword verses" and similar verses from the Bible.

The Bible vs the Koran

[DTB123]

Quote by: RickSp I am confident that I know more of the Bible than you do of the Koran. And I have no interest in arguing about your torturous twisting of one particular verse of Leviticus, especially as you ignore the other verses I cited and the larger issue entirely. Also, I never suggested that your bigotry is addressed only toward AlQaeda. You have made it perfectly clear that you consider Islam itself to be a terrorist religion. The nature of your bigotry is quite clear. If anyone is interested here is a good comparison of Koranic "Sword verses" and similar verses from the Bible. The Bible vs the Koran

You are certainly no "Muslim scholar" as all you are doing here is cut and paste other links, forcing people trying to debate with you to try and respond to an entire website. In order to debate the subject properly, you don't need to be a "scholar," and I would challenge you to prove otherwise. That is an apriori born of the robo-cop styles of religion, that you and I both seem to object to. i am asking you to please explain why my points re Lev. 20 are so wrong; and then I have stated that I would be more than willing to address the other texts which you want me to respond to. Therefore, I am not ignoring the texts; I am asking you to not ignore Lev.20 in this discussion, by just labelling me as "bigoted." Give us a well-reasoned Bible answer as to why my reflections on Lev.20 are so wrong. I will not respond to any further emotional responses by you on that point.

I think that we do have agreement here that it is wrong to promote killing in the name of religion. Let us recognize that we do not have an understanding yet of where each other is coming from. I remain committed to the fact that the above named terrorist groups do use the Koran as their guide. This, as I have already made clear, does not reflect upon the character or motive of the many Muslim people who are peace-loving, and would never use these parts of the Koran to follow in the footsteps of these murderers.

Just like the parts in the Bible that some call "ugly" would never be the rule of conduct for a true Christian today. The Bible does not shy away from the mention of these things for a reason. I believe that so far, my stated reasons are the best ones presented so far.

Thanks for hearing me out. I will likely be gone for a few days, but will look forward to coming back soon

[RickSp]

Quote by: DTB123 I think that we do have agreement here that it is wrong to promote killing in the name of religion. Let us recognize that we do not have an understanding yet of where each other is coming from. I remain committed to the fact that the above named terrorist groups do use the Koran as their guide. This, as I have already made clear, does not reflect upon the character or motive of the many Muslim people who are peace-loving, and would never use these parts of the Koran to follow in the footsteps of these murderers.

You appear to be backpeedling at full speed.

Of course terrorists of all stripes use religion to justify murder. This says something both about religion and terror. Your statement that "Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and many other terrorist organizations, are not perverting Islam, but are Allah’s truest followers", nevertheless, is insulting to the billion plus Muslims who do not embrace extremism. It makes exactly as much sense as claiming that the Aryan Nation/Christian Identity thugs are representatives of "true Christians" because they too quote the Bible, chapter and verse, to justify their hatred and violence.

As I think is pretty clear to anyone who will bother to look, the Bible, particularly the Mosaic code, can be just as bellicose and offensive as the "sword verses" of the Koran. If the "sword verses" make Islam a terrorist religion, what does the Bible make Christianity?

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Quote by: RickSp Read my post.

I did, and I was struck by how you ignore the big picture. It's almost as if you are simply following a christian bashing agenda of some sort.

What's the big picture here? Are Christans using the Bible as justification committing horrendious terrorists attacks? Are they killing rape victims? Are they passing death sentances for writers who write anti christian comments?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Flea_Bit_Monkey I did, and I was struck by how you ignore the big picture. It's almost as if you are simply following a christian bashing agenda of some sort. What's the big picture here? Are Christans using the Bible as justification committing horrendious terrorists attacks? Are they killing rape victims? Are they passing death sentances for writers who write anti christian comments?

Then I would suggest you read it again and slowly.

My post did not address the topics on which you so clearly want to rant. What I wrote was "... lots of Christians have taken to quoting the Koran to demonstrate how horrible Islam is while completely ignoring Bible verses that are every bit as ugly". I believe that is a factually correct statement. And while not entirely on-topic, yes, Christians have at various times and places committed all of the crimes you ask about.

If I am bashing anyone, I am bashing bigots. Most Christians are not. Those who think all Muslims are extremist murders or think that Islam, as a religion, is any more murderous than Christianity, for example, are indeed bigots. Your hysterical, off-topic response might suggest that you share their perspective.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Quote by: RickSp What I wrote was "... lots of Christians have taken to quoting the Koran to demonstrate how horrible Islam is while completely ignoring Bible verses that are every bit as ugly".

And you are completely wrong. Islam is horrible because of what it does in practice, which is supported by the Koran.

You want to tie it to unpracticed old testament laws, when there is no reason to other than to attempt bashing christians by ignoring practice.

If I qouted something from the Koran that said it was OK to kill your daughter because she got raped, it would be a meaningless and petty thing for me to do, unless daughters were being killed for getting raped.

[Jack]

Islam is horrible because of what it does in practice, which is supported by the Koran.

Do you consider christianity as practiced during the Inquisition horrible as well then? I'm curious as to how consistent you are in your condemnations.

[Nitrogenetic]

Ok, so I'm only new here, but I have quite a bit of experience in religious debate, and I'd just like to point out that after reading this entire topic, it seems like RickSp has made logical and coherent arguments every step of the way, and other members have continually condemned him and his arguments for no apparent reason. Whether or not Christians practice what is written in the Bible, it still represents their religion, and essentially, what God wants. Also, despite denying it when confronted, many people here seem to hold the belief that every Muslim is plotting how best to blow an important American embassy at any one time.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Flea_Bit_Monkey And you are completely wrong. Islam is horrible because of what it does in practice, which is supported by the Koran.

There are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world yet you claim that "Islam is horrible" because of the actions of a few thousand Islamic extremists. That suggests either ignorance, bigotry or both.

Should I judge all Christians based on the actions of Timothy McVeigh, the Branch Davidians, or Fred Phelps?

[Hostile55]

There are 1.4 billion Muslims in the world yet you claim that "Islam is horrible" because of the actions of a few thousand Islamic extremists. That suggests either ignorance, bigotry or both.

Yes. I think looking at, so called, islamic extremists as a product of their particular place and time rather than as a product of Ku'ranic teachings would be more helpful in understanding, and perhaps resolving the problem.