Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Ken Carman · Nov 8, 2006, 07:22 pm

I found a few stories on the net that ask a lot of questions. Malachi Ritscher set himself on fire in Chicago as a protest.

"As horrified Friday-morning commuters watched, a man apparently doused himself with gasoline and lit himself on fire along the Kennedy Expy. near a 25-foot-tall Loop sculpture titled 'Flame of the Millennium.'
A homemade sign was found near his charred body that read, 'Thou Shalt Not Kill,' said State Police Lt. Lincoln Hampton. Police are reviewing a videotape that also was found near the body."

Here's a link.

Here's a second news story.

Here's his suicide note.

Although I'm sure posters will find the political statement he was making an interesting topic to explore, I'm also interested in exploring something that our culture seems to lack. Suicide in many cultures is considered a more proper form of protest. I remember, especially during Nam, that it was almost a daily event overseas. Yet our society seems to react with a big shrug. Why? Do you think such protests have any validity? Do they have any affect here, or in the countries where they are more of a part of the culture? I have my doubts, although my heart goes out to the families and even the self-inflicted victim. Is it all the suicide's fault?

Suicide is a tough topic for me because I have had a lot of contact with it: an attempt on my part many, many years ago, cleaning up after a local hermit who found out he had terminal cancer; who used a stick to reach the trigger on the shotgun in his mouth... and an ex-(almost)-girlfriend... just to mention a few.

Almost every suicide I have known was a smart, kind, usually gentle person, who deserved to live far more than some of the more obnoxious, controlling, self-absorbed people I have met. (Except maybe the "ex..." but that's a different story I can share, if you wish.) It seems they never even consider an option that would rid the world of at least the possibility that their genes may further pollute the human race.

Are those who commit suicide always "sick?" If you believe they are, would that be true during protest suicides, kamikazees... was suicide perhaps the most sane act in Hitler's rather insane life?

There's a lot of meat in this topic, and the uncovered, Volconvo-wise, topic (as far as I remember) would be the protest aspect.

So let's have at it. What do you think?

The Bacon Guy · Nov 8, 2006, 07:53 pm

Strange as it may seem, suicide is one of the main contributors to my positive outlook on life. It's like an ultimate solution to life if all else fails. I find it comforting to know that no matter how much I screw up, there's always a way out.

So no, I don't think suicidees are always "sick". I believe some of them are simply thinking logically. They see that their life sucks and they see an easy way out. Why not take it?

**Jack** · Nov 8, 2006, 09:30 pm

I've long considered suicide short-sighted. To presume that tomorrow and the day after that and ... are always going to be the same, nothing will ever improve, is to claim knowledge no one has. The possibility that tomorrow may be the day your fortunes turn around should keep anyone from seriously considering suicide.
Now changing identities and just disappearing...there's a temptation.

Scribbler1 · Nov 8, 2006, 09:31 pm

It's not right and it's not wrong. It is just an exercise of your right to do with your body as you see fit.

CoffeeSaint · Nov 8, 2006, 09:39 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

It's not right and it's not wrong. It is just an exercise of your right to do with your body as you see fit.

That's my opinion, as well. I do think it shortsighted in many cases, as Isherwood said, but it isn't my place to judge -- and I would guess that others never know the full situation that drove someone to it.

As for suicide as a political statement, I'm surprised that it isn't more powerful in this country, considering how many Americans feel that life is the most precious gift imaginable, and how deeply we mourn (in a shallow way) when some "beloved" public figure dies, or when a dead person is made into a beloved public figure postmortem, a la Jean-Benet Ramsey, or however the heck you spell that. People should be much more moved when someone sacrifices this greatest possible gift in order to make a point.

But I think it comes back to the culture of victimization, which I think is the root cause for the culture of mental illness -- the culture that diagnoses every mother as suffering from PPD, every child as a victim of ADHD and/or depression, requiring heavy medication, and so on. When we hear about someone committing suicide for a cause, or for any reason other than terminal illness, really, we think, Wow, he/she must have been crazy." And why not? Everyone else is. That means we immediately dismiss the statement that was being made as the ravings of a lunatic, and since the protestor is no longer available for comment, that's what the statement becomes. Madness.

aly7142 · Nov 8, 2006, 09:42 pm

I don't think suicides reserved just for the "sick" I think if you don't like your life you shoulden't have to live with it. Yes you can always make your life better but what if you can't. What if you dug your hole to deep to get out. Honestly Its none of our decisions we where born we coulden't have told our parents to not have sex. So with that said I think we all should have a right to commit suicide for any reason. And even if you are sick, well then why live with that sickness if they feel they want to get out of that life then they have the right to because its not all there fault they are the way they are.

Poseidon · Nov 8, 2006, 10:25 pm

I do not thik that suicide is in any way a solution to problems. for some people it is those who's life they think is miserable are so depresed that well suicide is a way to stop sufering

Lotharia · Nov 9, 2006, 02:20 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Poseidon

I do not thik that suicide is in any way a solution to problems. for some people it is those who's life they think is miserable are so depresed that well suicide is a way to stop sufering

Suicide is definitely a solution for some people. If life is no longer worth living, and no hope is seen for things to change, then it's definitely a solution. Stop living; end of problems.

However, suicide as a political statement? I don't think it's going to be taken seriously in this country at this time because people will just consider it the action of a lunatic, and your views would be also considered the views of a lunatic.

Ken Carman · Nov 9, 2006, 04:07 pm

Quote:

As for suicide as a political statement, I'm surprised that it isn't more powerful in this country, considering how many Americans feel that life is the most precious gift imaginable, and how deeply we mourn (in a shallow way)...

I think "shallow" is a very appropriate term to use. We value life, supposedly. The Pro-Choice-ite rarely attempts to actually make it "legal but rare," the Pro-Lifer too often seems to have little concern for babies aborted by bombs...

I do think, as a culture, we suffer from some collective ADHD, as another poster mentioned, but I do agree that sometimes that's just an excuse for people to not pay attention when it doesn't suit their needs.

When I attempted to kill myself, over 33 years ago, I looked at my life and "logically" concluded that I was going no where. Was I wrong? Yes and no. 52 years of life make me look back and wonder occasionally if all would have been better if I had succeeded... or not. No way to know, I suppose. But I'd never go back down that path unless I felt it absolutely necessary. It would have to be pretty bad.

I think suicide may be more of an example of how how sick society is. We can't always control the actions of others, true, but we can control how we treat people. Yet those who do commit are so often quickly forgotten and it seems we are so quick to place all the blame on them.

Suicide as a political statement is intriguing, but in this culture quite senseless. They are like the rotting dogs and cats beside our highways, or the forgotten pets shoved into ovens after animal control kills them. Instead of learning from such horrific events, any statement made by such suicides, almost any suicide, is often as forgotten as Rover turned into roadkill.

Scribbler1 · Nov 9, 2006, 08:04 pm

Quote:

Quote by: CoffeeSaint

That's my opinion, as well. I do think it shortsighted in many cases, as Isherwood said, but it isn't my place to judge -- and I would guess that others never know the full situation that drove someone to it.

I agree. In fact I see it as shortsighted (to put it mildly) in MOST cases. But it's not my call. It may be your FINAL mistake, but it's your mistake to make.

Quote:

As for suicide as a political statement, I'm surprised that it isn't more powerful in this country, considering how many Americans feel that life is the most precious gift imaginable, and how deeply we mourn (in a shallow way) when some "beloved" public figure dies, or when a dead person is made into a beloved public figure postmortem, a la Jean-Benet Ramsey, or however the heck you spell that. People should be much more moved when someone sacrifices this greatest possible gift in order to make a point.

But how many times do people in this country kill themselves as a political statement. I would guess it's more personal than that for most suicides. Spouse left you, lost your job, even failing in school would be more the norm for Americans than politics I would think.

The 68 · Nov 9, 2006, 08:25 pm

I pretty much agree with Isherwood. This is indeed the thought that prevents a great many suicides. The prevention of the identity changes, on the other hand, is much due to the complexity and diffuculty of it. Why does suicide have to be the easier one? Why does simply vanishing into thin air have to have all these obstacles like emotional attachments or interconnected police databases or search parties? Tune in next time to find out....

twhite22 · Nov 10, 2006, 11:08 am

I would never think about killing myself.

Fonceai · Nov 10, 2006, 01:18 pm

I can understand how some people perceive it as selfish; in some cases you're leaving those who survive you with all of your burdens, plus the emotional burden of your death.

But I've also seen people with such serious chemical imbalances in their brains that suicide is the only answer. So I have learned to understand why people really think suicide is a solution.

Brandon.Bailey · Nov 12, 2006, 04:22 pm

Suicide? Thats crazy. Well according to the bible if you were to kill yourself, you are damned to hell. How can someone have it in their heart to kill themselve. You were put on earth for a reason and you killing yourself wont fulfill your reason on the planet. No matter what your going through, killing yourself wont solve it. Commiting suicide leaves your family and friends in heart break. It would be tough for me to know that one of my relatives have killed themselve.

Scribbler1 · Nov 12, 2006, 07:23 pm

Yeah, it IS tough for me knowing someone close to me killed themselves. But I have to realize it is THEIR life and that person, and that person alone can make the call when to end it.
If they choose to do that, I must respect that most personal of decisions. Naturally I'd try to dissuade them if I could, but it's still ultimately their business.

Julio · Nov 12, 2006, 11:24 pm

I think that those who commit the act of suicide are some what going through a psycological phase. yes, you might say they`re sick. some people just dont want to live with certain things that we encounter in life. They think that the only way out is to commit suicide. They just want to get rid of all their problems so fast that they dont have the time to think about what they are doing or are about to do. i`ve personally though about it but not that strongly. i thinki before i act and thats one of the best advices I would give others if thinking on commiting suicide. Life comes with positive and negative things and one needs to know how to ordinate it into a positive outcome.

RRodriguez864 · Nov 13, 2006, 12:57 am

To me suicide is the last resort to some one who is short on answers to the questions he/ she asks. I do not always believe that someone has to be "sick" in order to commit suicide. I do belive that sometimes people who commit suicide are just people who are backed up into a corner and just do not know what to do any more, and have convinced themselves they have nothing else to turn to. Some people may believe that after they die then there suffering comes to an end and they will no longer have to deal with the pain of being alive, that is why I believe that people contemplate suicide in the first place.

Fonceai · Nov 13, 2006, 09:30 am

Psychologically speaking, the reason people commit suicide is because they see it as the only way out of their problems.

The military takes the position that if someone kills themself, then everyone around them who knew them should be guilty of murder for not spotting the signs.

But when you live in a culture where you are trained to kill and face the possibility of death 6 months a year in a deployment you don't believe in, depression and suicide aren't uncommon.

The year I left the military they had a record number of suicides and they did all these programs about suicide awareness. I thought it was obvious that people were killing themselves because they really didn't want to deploy and/or fight.

Lovely · Nov 13, 2006, 10:32 am

It's with a heavy heart that I admit that I once considered commiting suciding. I felt all along in the world and I could literally feel my heart breaking. It was as though I had no reason to live. Through the grace of GOD, I failed my sucide attempt. With the help of my family, I found a will to live. I strongly believe people who commit suicide are truely victims. What would make a person want to take their own life?

alexrivero · Nov 13, 2006, 11:19 am

Suicide .... where do I start? First off I think commiting suicide is one of the most selfish things you as a person can do. The reason I say this is because if you commit suicide your leaving alot of stress and pain in the hearts of the people you have loved for your entire life. I think there is alot of other things you can do for yourself if your down, depressed etc. then taking your life. So please dont let suicide be the only way to relive you from stress or depression take other steps to overcome it.

Nov 8, 2006, 07:22 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Ken Carman Just plain WEIRD Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,830	Suicide? I found a few stories on the net that ask a lot of questions. Malachi Ritscher set himself on fire in Chicago as a protest. "As horrified Friday-morning commuters watched, a man apparently doused himself with gasoline and lit himself on fire along the Kennedy Expy. near a 25-foot-tall Loop sculpture titled 'Flame of the Millennium.' A homemade sign was found near his charred body that read, 'Thou Shalt Not Kill,' said State Police Lt. Lincoln Hampton. Police are reviewing a videotape that also was found near the body." Here's a link. Here's a second news story. Here's his suicide note. Although I'm sure posters will find the political statement he was making an interesting topic to explore, I'm also interested in exploring something that our culture seems to lack. Suicide in many cultures is considered a more proper form of protest. I remember, especially during Nam, that it was almost a daily event overseas. Yet our society seems to react with a big shrug. Why? Do you think such protests have any validity? Do they have any affect here, or in the countries where they are more of a part of the culture? I have my doubts, although my heart goes out to the families and even the self-inflicted victim. Is it all the suicide's fault? Suicide is a tough topic for me because I have had a lot of contact with it: an attempt on my part many, many years ago, cleaning up after a local hermit who found out he had terminal cancer; who used a stick to reach the trigger on the shotgun in his mouth... and an ex-(almost)-girlfriend... just to mention a few. Almost every suicide I have known was a smart, kind, usually gentle person, who deserved to live far more than some of the more obnoxious, controlling, self-absorbed people I have met. (Except maybe the "ex..." but that's a different story I can share, if you wish.) It seems they never even consider an option that would rid the world of at least the possibility that their genes may further pollute the human race. Are those who commit suicide always "sick?" If you believe they are, would that be true during protest suicides, kamikazees... was suicide perhaps the most sane act in Hitler's rather insane life? There's a lot of meat in this topic, and the uncovered, Volconvo-wise, topic (as far as I remember) would be the protest aspect. So let's have at it. What do you think?

Nov 8, 2006, 09:30 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 14,209	I've long considered suicide short-sighted. To presume that tomorrow and the day after that and ... are always going to be the same, nothing will ever improve, is to claim knowledge no one has. The possibility that tomorrow may be the day your fortunes turn around should keep anyone from seriously considering suicide. Now changing identities and just disappearing...there's a temptation. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Nov 8, 2006, 09:31 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,837	It's not right and it's not wrong. It is just an exercise of your right to do with your body as you see fit. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 8, 2006, 10:25 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Poseidon Migthy Wave Posts: 30	I do not thik that suicide is in any way a solution to problems. for some people it is those who's life they think is miserable are so depresed that well suicide is a way to stop sufering *You may call me a Noob since I am young, my bocabulary is still growing, please bare with me*

Nov 9, 2006, 08:25 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
The 68 Zombie Location: Lincoln County, TN Posts: 99	I pretty much agree with Isherwood. This is indeed the thought that prevents a great many suicides. The prevention of the identity changes, on the other hand, is much due to the complexity and diffuculty of it. Why does suicide have to be the easier one? Why does simply vanishing into thin air have to have all these obstacles like emotional attachments or interconnected police databases or search parties? Tune in next time to find out.... Just someone who is sick and tired of gray areas, political correctness, and the entitlement mindset.

Nov 8, 2006, 07:53 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
The Bacon Guy Away Location: Scotland, Central Lowlands Posts: 3,325	Strange as it may seem, suicide is one of the main contributors to my positive outlook on life. It's like an ultimate solution to life if all else fails. I find it comforting to know that no matter how much I screw up, there's always a way out. So no, I don't think suicidees are always "sick". I believe some of them are simply thinking logically. They see that their life sucks and they see an easy way out. Why not take it?

Nov 8, 2006, 09:42 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
aly7142 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 1	I don't think suicides reserved just for the "sick" I think if you don't like your life you shoulden't have to live with it. Yes you can always make your life better but what if you can't. What if you dug your hole to deep to get out. Honestly Its none of our decisions we where born we coulden't have told our parents to not have sex. So with that said I think we all should have a right to commit suicide for any reason. And even if you are sick, well then why live with that sickness if they feel they want to get out of that life then they have the right to because its not all there fault they are the way they are.

Nov 10, 2006, 11:08 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
twhite22 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 6	I would never think about killing myself.

Nov 10, 2006, 01:18 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	I can understand how some people perceive it as selfish; in some cases you're leaving those who survive you with all of your burdens, plus the emotional burden of your death. But I've also seen people with such serious chemical imbalances in their brains that suicide is the only answer. So I have learned to understand why people really think suicide is a solution.

Nov 12, 2006, 04:22 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Brandon.Bailey Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	Suicide? Thats crazy. Well according to the bible if you were to kill yourself, you are damned to hell. How can someone have it in their heart to kill themselve. You were put on earth for a reason and you killing yourself wont fulfill your reason on the planet. No matter what your going through, killing yourself wont solve it. Commiting suicide leaves your family and friends in heart break. It would be tough for me to know that one of my relatives have killed themselve.

Nov 12, 2006, 07:23 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,837	Yeah, it IS tough for me knowing someone close to me killed themselves. But I have to realize it is THEIR life and that person, and that person alone can make the call when to end it. If they choose to do that, I must respect that most personal of decisions. Naturally I'd try to dissuade them if I could, but it's still ultimately their business. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 12, 2006, 11:24 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Julio Sedimentary Rock Posts: 5	I think that those who commit the act of suicide are some what going through a psycological phase. yes, you might say they`re sick. some people just dont want to live with certain things that we encounter in life. They think that the only way out is to commit suicide. They just want to get rid of all their problems so fast that they dont have the time to think about what they are doing or are about to do. i`ve personally though about it but not that strongly. i thinki before i act and thats one of the best advices I would give others if thinking on commiting suicide. Life comes with positive and negative things and one needs to know how to ordinate it into a positive outcome.

Nov 13, 2006, 12:57 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
RRodriguez864 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	To me suicide is the last resort to some one who is short on answers to the questions he/ she asks. I do not always believe that someone has to be "sick" in order to commit suicide. I do belive that sometimes people who commit suicide are just people who are backed up into a corner and just do not know what to do any more, and have convinced themselves they have nothing else to turn to. Some people may believe that after they die then there suffering comes to an end and they will no longer have to deal with the pain of being alive, that is why I believe that people contemplate suicide in the first place.

Nov 13, 2006, 09:30 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	Psychologically speaking, the reason people commit suicide is because they see it as the only way out of their problems. The military takes the position that if someone kills themself, then everyone around them who knew them should be guilty of murder for not spotting the signs. But when you live in a culture where you are trained to kill and face the possibility of death 6 months a year in a deployment you don't believe in, depression and suicide aren't uncommon. The year I left the military they had a record number of suicides and they did all these programs about suicide awareness. I thought it was obvious that people were killing themselves because they really didn't want to deploy and/or fight.

Nov 13, 2006, 10:32 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Lovely Lovely Posts: 3	It's with a heavy heart that I admit that I once considered commiting suciding. I felt all along in the world and I could literally feel my heart breaking. It was as though I had no reason to live. Through the grace of GOD, I failed my sucide attempt. With the help of my family, I found a will to live. I strongly believe people who commit suicide are truely victims. What would make a person want to take their own life?

Nov 13, 2006, 11:19 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
alexrivero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	Suicide .... where do I start? First off I think commiting suicide is one of the most selfish things you as a person can do. The reason I say this is because if you commit suicide your leaving alot of stress and pain in the hearts of the people you have loved for your entire life. I think there is alot of other things you can do for yourself if your down, depressed etc. then taking your life. So please dont let suicide be the only way to relive you from stress or depression take other steps to overcome it.