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Captain Chaos · Nov 6, 2006, 05:30 pm

I believe there is some form of continuity of consciousness. My main reason for this is that I find the materialist explanations for some details of near death experiences to be lacking. To me, those explanations wind up sounding forced, and not really complete.

The interpretation of some aspects of NDE data comes down to a judgement call. Thus, it is hard to take it any further without a new approach.

So, my queestion is this. IF we have a soul, what would be the mechanism by which it interfaces with the brain? And, what would it be composed of?

This sort of speculation is useful, because it can lead to testable hypotheses.

My guess is that spacetime is a construct. I think we live lifetimes in order to gain experiences. During a lifetime, I believe (speculatively) that our soul, (which is part of a reality outside of spacetime), is constrained by the brain (which is defined within spacetime), with information flowing from the brain out to the soul. This would hold true except for a few unusual circumstances that allow for information to flow in the other direction.

I would like to emphasize the speculative nature of this belief, just to be clear.

If there is any interaction between an outer reality, and our spacetime, we have to ask how such interactions would manifest. Specifically, how could they take place so as to allow for information flow from the outside to the inside?

The only thing in physics that I can find that fits are apparently random quantum events, such as the sponateous formation of particle pairs, or spontaneous changes in electron state.

I was wondering if anyone else has any ideas for how the soul (if it exists) would be constructed, and how it would interface with the brain? Any testable ideas?

Jagged · Nov 6, 2006, 09:28 pm

Personally i don't think we were created in order to have experiences. However, as hinted above, i do believe the meaning of life is to, well, live life out and gain experience and to learn as much as possible in the process.

I understand the apparent fault. My friend once asked me in bio class (the evolutionary section) in astonishment, after grasping the concept of evolution, and asked me "what are the chances that we came out as intricate and complex as we are? wow." Over time i've been thinking about the idea that the answer to this question is actually 100%, for if we didn't come out the way we did then that question would never be asked. In other words, its luck that our life has the ability to have meaning, but we, the livers (hah), are the ones that have to give it meaning.

Sorry its more a statement than a reply.

Edit: oops, i just sorta had a random outburst of thoughts, sorry its not centered around the soul. Im not concrete on the subject.

phoenix_fire · Nov 6, 2006, 10:56 pm

This is something I've thought of as well. I can't give a satisfactory or entirely scriptural answer (as scripture doesn't say a whole lot about the mechanics of the soul), but maybe this will generate some interesting conversation.

When I think of the relation to the soul and the body, I think of a video game. Think a mega-massively multiplayer online role playing game (mmmorpg). The video game world is self-contained. It is governed by the rules of the programming. For the most part, these rules are inviolable. Your character reacts to the environment of the game. There is no pause, no restart, no getting up and leaving. From inside the game, it would be very difficult or maybe even impossible to prove that the player exists. After all, it is just programming and electrical impulses. Your character is programmed to look a certain way and to have certain abilities. You see other things in the video game world and they are the same as you, pretty much. You know that you're not like the turtle that just moves back and forth across the screen, but you wonder if your differences are not simply the result of better programming.

The player symbolizes the soul. It is entirely different from the video game world. If you dissect the pixels of the character, you will not find the player. If you jump on a flying Yoshi and fly up to the top of the screen, you will not find the Programmer. The player can exist separate from the character, but the character cannot do much without the player (except usually die). The player is what distinguishes the character from the turtle. The player has his/her own often erratic desires and causes the character to move in accordance with these. Some players just want to finish the game quickly. Some players want to win with the most stuff. Some accumulate all the money they can find in an attempt to try to extend their life. Some think the game is stupid or too difficult and amuse themselves by walking off cliffs.

At any rate, the world of the player is sometimes similar to the game, but in a lot of ways, very different. I don't think I need to go into further detail on this.

Erratta: (things I'm not implying)

1.) Video game programmers are not gods (even if they think they are).
2.) Collecting the most gold doesn't really help much in the long run.
3.) Stepping on smaller creatures is not ok.
4.) Playing a lot of video games provides you neither with valuable life experience nor enlightenment. Do not use this cosmology as an excuse.
5.) Getting married is not the end of the game.
6.) Mushrooms will not help you better play the game.
7.) The dragon can't really be beaten just by stepping on an ax.
8.) Fireballs: kids, don't try this at home.
9.) Animals and souls: don't ask: I don't know. Rocks and souls, probably negatory.
10.) There are no shortcuts, program holes, cheat codes or hacks.

**Jack** · Nov 7, 2006, 12:45 am

I wonder why the concept of a soul developed in the first place. As far as I know, the actual history is murky. I'm asking myself, what would happen to make me begin to think I had something soul-like in me? Is the ability to think (activity without physical motion) what made someone once decide that this indicated a part of us that was soul-ish?

phoenix_fire · Nov 7, 2006, 12:49 am

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

I wonder why the concept of a soul developed in the first place. As far as I know, the actual history is murky. I'm asking myself, what would happen to make me begin to think I had something soul-like in me? Is the ability to think (activity without physical motion) what made someone once decide that this indicated a part of us that was soul-ish?

Good question. I was thinking about that myself when I was typing out my previous post in this thread.

Technosoul · Nov 7, 2006, 01:22 am

In the old days the soul was thought to be a kind of "spirit of life" which is taken into the self by inhaling air. When one dies the sprit (soul) departs with the last exhale of breath never to return to that body which then is dead.

From the air, and from out of the blue, the soul enters the body and mind breafly after birth and creates a center of being in a person. I guess translated that would mean "individual life - as an essence of being alive".

In some old teachings all living beings have individual spirits or souls, animals and so on down to the tiny bugs. That respect was sometimes also granted to trees, or even an mountian. The whole planet earth as a soul being and the ozone halo is the purification of the water which also keeps the soul spirit active.

So we got Mother Earth the Overshoul and the human soul which is the child version of the super being. A paradox of individulism and the totality of being all in One.

The soul - our connection to the life forces.

Later in history other ideas were promoted and I will let the Christians and philosophy experts to explain those newer ideas.

Kuroko · Nov 7, 2006, 10:37 am

Soul.
It is the part of you that never changes. When you are sick, when you are happy, when you are sad. These are parts of your body and or mind which change in state and in function. When you close your eyes the Soul is the thing which was with you when your eyes were open.

You know what I am talking about. I know you all do. It isn't a feeling, not the physical sense. It is the oldest thing you are familiar with, not some thing you have seen, or felt, or heard. None of that, it is the part of you that pushes you in a direction, that directs you, like a puppet master thier doll, through strings greater then words. And when it is arround other Souls, well.. it reminds us how foolish we are in our physical form.

My soul began to be a soul when I began, I mean when I truelly began.

I might sound insane, or some what spiritually inclined, but I have to share this, in perhaps the closest state I have ever been to what I would consider "total clarity" an observation I had made not through my normal means "came to me".

There is no tragedy greater then the people we never meet. I was reminded, never again will I be able to interact with the people I see, in this very way ever again. No time will ever be the same as this one.

Words cannot truelly express this, but these ones do the best. Your soul is what you seek to become, your soul is what you already were.

Captain Chaos · Nov 7, 2006, 10:54 am

Quote:

Quote by: PhoenixFire

When I think of the relation to the soul and the body, I think of a video game.

This is an anology I also use. Except that the information processing for our reality is distributed within spacetime, as opposed to being done in a CPU.

I think there are a few holes, or else we would have no clues. The main hole is that there appears to be some backwards information flow during certain extreme states, such as during NDEs or when under the influence of entheogens.

We still have yet to develop a safe, reproducable, testable method of exploring these holes.

Spooky action at a distance, an event observed in some physics experiments, would also seem to imply some sort of underlying order behind spacetime.

Captain Chaos · Nov 7, 2006, 10:56 am

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

I wonder why the concept of a soul developed in the first place. As far as I know, the actual history is murky. I'm asking myself, what would happen to make me begin to think I had something soul-like in me? Is the ability to think (activity without physical motion) what made someone once decide that this indicated a part of us that was soul-ish?

Out of body experiences are quite common. Dreams that feel out of bodyish are also quite common. I bet the notion of a soul arose from folks having such experiences in prehistoric times.

wil.c · Nov 8, 2006, 10:33 am

In the end the soul is more of an apparent concept, that if it's to be proved it would be through mathematical means. A number of theories in science are just theories, many of which we'll never be able to experience or to some extent replicate (not enough to fully comprehend). Quantum physics is solely based on the numbers that justify it alongside the theories those numbers lend to it.
Personally, the soul is best justified as the neural impulses or the action potential of the neurons. What best way to call something seemless than to call it energy? Basically, the soul is energy.

Jamie5904 · Nov 8, 2006, 10:48 am

Well I believe the soul is attached to the heart which is the physical explanation for it. Then we have the brain which is the physical and the conscious which is the spiritual. We all have a physical body and a spirit, most of our actions are based on our feeling. These feelings don't always have effect on our bodies but on our spirits. That is how I believe it works.

Lotharia · Nov 9, 2006, 02:23 pm

Well I believe the soul is imaginary. Something dreamed up by men who wanted to be special (more special than mere mammals) and have some way to never die. The imagination is a powerful thing, and people imagine all kinds of things -- "near death" pretty lights, UFO's, big foot, and souls.

iahag · Nov 9, 2006, 10:36 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Lotharia

Well I believe the soul is imaginary. Something dreamed up by men who wanted to be special (more special than mere mammals) and have some way to never die. The imagination is a powerful thing, and people imagine all kinds of things -- "near death" pretty lights, UFO's, big foot, and souls.

Stange you say that. Are you implying that this is peoples way of 'dealing with things'? Perhaps your way of delaing with things is to imagine people imagining souls and things stuck inside there brain making random non matter occuerences through some apparently controllable and indeterminable conscience :eek:

You know when people 'dream up things' theyre often very ignorant of the subconscience logic to which this event occured. Whos to say your not finding your hole and sitting in it eh?

Not that im saying your wrong or anything...

wee im tired

Jagged · Nov 10, 2006, 12:07 am

Quote:

I can't give a satisfactory or entirely scriptural answer (as scripture doesn't say a whole lot about the mechanics of the soul)

Quick question: Does this mean everything you firmly believe is only in the Bible and the Bible and only the Bible is everything you firmly believe? Just wondering what your viewpoint is.

phoenix_fire · Nov 10, 2006, 01:00 am

Quote:

Quote by: Jagged

Quick question: Does this mean everything you firmly believe is only in the Bible and the Bible and only the Bible is everything you firmly believe? Just wondering what your viewpoint is.

Not exactly. I firmly believe that helium has no more or no less than two protons. That's not in the Bible.

phoenix_fire · Nov 10, 2006, 01:08 am

Quote:

Quote by: Lotharia

Well I believe the soul is imaginary. Something dreamed up by men who wanted to be special (more special than mere mammals) and have some way to never die. The imagination is a powerful thing, and people imagine all kinds of things -- "near death" pretty lights, UFO's, big foot, and souls.

Something about this doesn't jive with me. I am always interested in first causes. If I had been totally uninfluenced either by science or any kind of theology and I saw someone drop dead, what on earth would make me think that that person still functioned in some way? UFOs may seem like the invention of more contemporary times, but if you look through history, the concept and a lot of the details are a very old story. People say that ancient men would look at something they couldn't explain and call it the work of a god. But why would they think that? Whence did the concept of a "god" originate? Perhaps that was originally a cause of some things, but who originally imagined something like that? I can see where people down the road would use that explanation because it had been used before. But if I were totally uninfluenced, what would make me look at rain falling from the sky and make me think that some personified higher power was in charge of it? I think that the explanations don't go far enough.

**Jack** · Nov 10, 2006, 01:47 am

Quote:

But if I were totally uninfluenced, what would make me look at rain falling from the sky and make me think that some personified higher power was in charge of it?

Because it would be an event you couldn't control. If you couldn't control a thing, you'd credit it or blame it on something outside yourself. "I didn't do that, Gork must have." "Gork can't do that, either." "You mean none of us is doing that?" "So who is?" Bingo. Even early man understood rank and status. It's a common comprehension among social animals.

Either we can control something or someone else has to be able to. Pack leader mentality. We anticipate an ultimate pack leader. Politicians and religious leaders understand this and play to it. They strive to be the most powerful human pack leaders hoping the people will transfer some of their pack leader respect to them. Too many do.

Kuldeep · Nov 10, 2006, 06:52 am

The answer to the question of thread "What is soul?" is getting more and more complicated. The main problem is we have define it in physical testable manner.

Somebody gave the best answer that soul is a form of energy. I would add that energy which makes the physical system of living being to act the it is acting during the life span.

Without bringing any religion in between I would say I am the unknowable beyond conception neuclous of my body. The intracting item between this I and the gross physical body is "Meta Physical Mind". This meta-physical mind is my soul which has all the senses of feeling like sight, hearing, smell touch and taste. It does not carry five senses of physical actions.

Atlas · Nov 10, 2006, 08:01 am

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

Out of body experiences are quite common. Dreams that feel out of bodyish are also quite common. I bet the notion of a soul arose from folks having such experiences in prehistoric times.

While I do sympathize with your theory as I myself considered it to be possible and logical before this thread, phenomenons like these can be scientifically explained. The word "information" that You use in itself is a spacetime definition, hard to see how it or anything can exist without space or time.

Fonceai · Nov 10, 2006, 01:20 pm

I think the body is the tool of the soul... the mechanism. The brain is just storage space for accumulated sensory input. The soul is what evaluates the knowledge and acts on it.

How the soul evaluates tells you what kind of soul it is... good or bad or malicious, etc.

Nov 6, 2006, 05:30 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Captain Chaos Shifting Paradigms Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 3,102	What is the soul? I believe there is some form of continuity of consciousness. My main reason for this is that I find the materialist explanations for some details of near death experiences to be lacking. To me, those explanations wind up sounding forced, and not really complete. The interpretation of some aspects of NDE data comes down to a judgement call. Thus, it is hard to take it any further without a new approach. So, my queestion is this. IF we have a soul, what would be the mechanism by which it interfaces with the brain? And, what would it be composed of? This sort of speculation is useful, because it can lead to testable hypotheses. My guess is that spacetime is a construct. I think we live lifetimes in order to gain experiences. During a lifetime, I believe (speculatively) that our soul, (which is part of a reality outside of spacetime), is constrained by the brain (which is defined within spacetime), with information flowing from the brain out to the soul. This would hold true except for a few unusual circumstances that allow for information to flow in the other direction. I would like to emphasize the speculative nature of this belief, just to be clear. If there is any interaction between an outer reality, and our spacetime, we have to ask how such interactions would manifest. Specifically, how could they take place so as to allow for information flow from the outside to the inside? The only thing in physics that I can find that fits are apparently random quantum events, such as the sponateous formation of particle pairs, or spontaneous changes in electron state. I was wondering if anyone else has any ideas for how the soul (if it exists) would be constructed, and how it would interface with the brain? Any testable ideas? Do all things with love.

Nov 6, 2006, 10:56 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	This is something I've thought of as well. I can't give a satisfactory or entirely scriptural answer (as scripture doesn't say a whole lot about the mechanics of the soul), but maybe this will generate some interesting conversation. When I think of the relation to the soul and the body, I think of a video game. Think a mega-massively multiplayer online role playing game (mmmorpg). The video game world is self-contained. It is governed by the rules of the programming. For the most part, these rules are inviolable. Your character reacts to the environment of the game. There is no pause, no restart, no getting up and leaving. From inside the game, it would be very difficult or maybe even impossible to prove that the player exists. After all, it is just programming and electrical impulses. Your character is programmed to look a certain way and to have certain abilities. You see other things in the video game world and they are the same as you, pretty much. You know that you're not like the turtle that just moves back and forth across the screen, but you wonder if your differences are not simply the result of better programming. The player symbolizes the soul. It is entirely different from the video game world. If you dissect the pixels of the character, you will not find the player. If you jump on a flying Yoshi and fly up to the top of the screen, you will not find the Programmer. The player can exist separate from the character, but the character cannot do much without the player (except usually die). The player is what distinguishes the character from the turtle. The player has his/her own often erratic desires and causes the character to move in accordance with these. Some players just want to finish the game quickly. Some players want to win with the most stuff. Some accumulate all the money they can find in an attempt to try to extend their life. Some think the game is stupid or too difficult and amuse themselves by walking off cliffs. At any rate, the world of the player is sometimes similar to the game, but in a lot of ways, very different. I don't think I need to go into further detail on this. Erratta: (things I'm not implying) 1.) Video game programmers are not gods (even if they think they are). 2.) Collecting the most gold doesn't really help much in the long run. 3.) Stepping on smaller creatures is not ok. 4.) Playing a lot of video games provides you neither with valuable life experience nor enlightenment. Do not use this cosmology as an excuse. 5.) Getting married is not the end of the game. 6.) Mushrooms will not help you better play the game. 7.) The dragon can't really be beaten just by stepping on an ax. 8.) Fireballs: kids, don't try this at home. 9.) Animals and souls: don't ask: I don't know. Rocks and souls, probably negatory. 10.) There are no shortcuts, program holes, cheat codes or hacks. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Nov 7, 2006, 12:45 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 14,209	I wonder why the concept of a soul developed in the first place. As far as I know, the actual history is murky. I'm asking myself, what would happen to make me begin to think I had something soul-like in me? Is the ability to think (activity without physical motion) what made someone once decide that this indicated a part of us that was soul-ish? The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Nov 7, 2006, 10:37 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Kuroko Igneous Magma Posts: 305	Soul. It is the part of you that never changes. When you are sick, when you are happy, when you are sad. These are parts of your body and or mind which change in state and in function. When you close your eyes the Soul is the thing which was with you when your eyes were open. You know what I am talking about. I know you all do. It isn't a feeling, not the physical sense. It is the oldest thing you are familiar with, not some thing you have seen, or felt, or heard. None of that, it is the part of you that pushes you in a direction, that directs you, like a puppet master thier doll, through strings greater then words. And when it is arround other Souls, well.. it reminds us how foolish we are in our physical form. My soul began to be a soul when I began, I mean when I truelly began. I might sound insane, or some what spiritually inclined, but I have to share this, in perhaps the closest state I have ever been to what I would consider "total clarity" an observation I had made not through my normal means "came to me". There is no tragedy greater then the people we never meet. I was reminded, never again will I be able to interact with the people I see, in this very way ever again. No time will ever be the same as this one. Words cannot truelly express this, but these ones do the best. Your soul is what you seek to become, your soul is what you already were. Deist: 38% Scientist: 29% Debator: 15% Mathematician: 19%

Nov 6, 2006, 09:28 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Jagged 99 Red Balloons Location: Washington DC Posts: 274	Personally i don't think we were created in order to have experiences. However, as hinted above, i do believe the meaning of life is to, well, live life out and gain experience and to learn as much as possible in the process. I understand the apparent fault. My friend once asked me in bio class (the evolutionary section) in astonishment, after grasping the concept of evolution, and asked me "what are the chances that we came out as intricate and complex as we are? wow." Over time i've been thinking about the idea that the answer to this question is actually 100%, for if we didn't come out the way we did then that question would never be asked. In other words, its luck that our life has the ability to have meaning, but we, the livers (hah), are the ones that have to give it meaning. Sorry its more a statement than a reply. Edit: oops, i just sorta had a random outburst of thoughts, sorry its not centered around the soul. Im not concrete on the subject.

Nov 7, 2006, 01:22 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,936	In the old days the soul was thought to be a kind of "spirit of life" which is taken into the self by inhaling air. When one dies the sprit (soul) departs with the last exhale of breath never to return to that body which then is dead. From the air, and from out of the blue, the soul enters the body and mind breafly after birth and creates a center of being in a person. I guess translated that would mean "individual life - as an essence of being alive". In some old teachings all living beings have individual spirits or souls, animals and so on down to the tiny bugs. That respect was sometimes also granted to trees, or even an mountian. The whole planet earth as a soul being and the ozone halo is the purification of the water which also keeps the soul spirit active. So we got Mother Earth the Overshoul and the human soul which is the child version of the super being. A paradox of individulism and the totality of being all in One. The soul - our connection to the life forces. Later in history other ideas were promoted and I will let the Christians and philosophy experts to explain those newer ideas.

Nov 8, 2006, 10:33 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
wil.c Sedimentary Rock Posts: 5	In the end the soul is more of an apparent concept, that if it's to be proved it would be through mathematical means. A number of theories in science are just theories, many of which we'll never be able to experience or to some extent replicate (not enough to fully comprehend). Quantum physics is solely based on the numbers that justify it alongside the theories those numbers lend to it. Personally, the soul is best justified as the neural impulses or the action potential of the neurons. What best way to call something seemless than to call it energy? Basically, the soul is energy.

Nov 8, 2006, 10:48 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Jamie5904 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	Well I believe the soul is attached to the heart which is the physical explanation for it. Then we have the brain which is the physical and the conscious which is the spiritual. We all have a physical body and a spirit, most of our actions are based on our feeling. These feelings don't always have effect on our bodies but on our spirits. That is how I believe it works.

Nov 9, 2006, 02:23 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Lotharia Molten Ash Posts: 68	Well I believe the soul is imaginary. Something dreamed up by men who wanted to be special (more special than mere mammals) and have some way to never die. The imagination is a powerful thing, and people imagine all kinds of things -- "near death" pretty lights, UFO's, big foot, and souls.

Nov 10, 2006, 06:52 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Kuldeep Kuldeep Location: Bhopa, M.P, India Posts: 1,721	The answer to the question of thread "What is soul?" is getting more and more complicated. The main problem is we have define it in physical testable manner. Somebody gave the best answer that soul is a form of energy. I would add that energy which makes the physical system of living being to act the it is acting during the life span. Without bringing any religion in between I would say I am the unknowable beyond conception neuclous of my body. The intracting item between this I and the gross physical body is "Meta Physical Mind". This meta-physical mind is my soul which has all the senses of feeling like sight, hearing, smell touch and taste. It does not carry five senses of physical actions.

Nov 10, 2006, 01:20 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	I think the body is the tool of the soul... the mechanism. The brain is just storage space for accumulated sensory input. The soul is what evaluates the knowledge and acts on it. How the soul evaluates tells you what kind of soul it is... good or bad or malicious, etc.