Islam

[1slam]

I feel the need that people should know what Islam is all about before criticizing it

the first thing that one should know and clearly understand about Islam is what the word "Islam" itself means. The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Christianity which was named after Jesus Christ, Buddhism after Gotama Buddha, Confucianism after Confucius, and Marxism after Karl Marx. Nor was it named after a tribe like Judaism after the tribe of Judah and Hinduism after the Hindus. Islam is the true religion of "Allah" and as such, its name represents the central principle of Allah's "God's" religion; the total submission to the will of Allah "God". The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim", The word also implies "peace" which is the natural consequence of total submission to the will of Allah. Hence, it was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) I in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form.

Islam is the religion which was given to Adam, the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets sent by Allah to mankind. The name of God's religion lslam was not decided upon by later generations of man. It was chosen by Allah Himself and clearly mentioned in His final revelation to man. In the final book of divine revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah states the following:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)

Nowhere in the Bible will you find Allah saying to Prophet Moses' people or their descendants that their religion is Judaism, nor to the followers of Christ that their religion is Christianity. In fact, Christ was not even his name, nor was it Jesus! The name "Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos which means the annointed. That is, Christ is a Greek translation of the Hebrew title "Messiah". The name "Jesus" on the other hand, is a latinized version of the Hebrew name Esau.

For simplicity's sake, I will however continue to refer to Prophet Esau (PBUH) as Jesus. As for his religion, it was what he called his followers to. Like the prophets before him, he called the people to surrender their will to the will of Allah; (which is Islam) and he warned them to stay away from the false gods of human imagination.

According to the New Testament, he taught his followers to pray as follows: "Yours will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".

Since the total submission of one's will to Allah represents the essence of worship, the basic message of Allah's divine religion, Islam is the worship of Allah alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than Allah.Since everything other than Allah, the Creator of all things, is Allah's creation; it may be said that Islam, in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator. He is the only one deserving man's worship as it is only by His will that prayers are answered. If man prays to a tree and his prayers are answered, it was not the tree which answered his prayers but Allah who allowed the circumstances prayed for to take place. One might say, "That is obvious," however, to tree-worshippers it might not be. Similarly, prayers to Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna, to Saint Christopher, or Saint Jude or even to Muhammad, are not answered by them but are answered by Allah. Jesus did nottell his followers to worship him but to worship Allah. As the Qur'aan states:

"And behold Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary Did you say to men, Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah He will say-"Glory to you I could never say what I had no right (to say')" (Soorah Al-Maa'idah- 5:116)

Nor did he worship himself when he worshipped but rather he worshipped Allah. This basic principle is enshrined in the opening chapter of the Qur'aan, known as Soorah Al-Faatihah, verse 4:

"You alone do we worship and from you alone do we seek help".

Elsewhere, in the final book of revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah also said:

"And your Lord says:"Call on Me and I will answer your(prayer)."(Soorsh Mu'min 40:60)

it is worth noting that the basic message of Islam is that Allah and His creation are distinctly different entities. Neither is Allah His creation or a part of it, nor is His creation Him or a part of Him.

This might seem obvious, but, man's worship of creation instead of the Creator is to a large degree based on ignorance of this concept. It is the belief that the essence of Allah is everywhere in His creation or that His divine being is or was present in some aspects of His creation, which has provided justification for the worship of creation though such worship maybecalled the worship of Allah through his creation. How ever, the message of Islam as brought by the prophets of Allah is to worship only Allah and to avoid the worship of his creation either directly or indirectly. In the Our'aan Allah clearlystates:

"For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet,(with the command) worship meand avoid false gods " (Soorsh Al-Nahl 16:36)

When the idol worshipper is questioned as to why he or she bows down to idols created by men, the invariable reply is that they are not actually worshipping the stone image, but Allah who is present within it. They claim that the stone idol is only a focal point for Allah's essence and is not in itself Allah! One who has accepted the concept of the presence of God's being within His creation in any way will be obliged to accept this argument of idolatry. Whereas, one who understands the basic message of Islam and its implications would never concede to idolatry no matter how it is rationalized. Those who have claimed divinity for themselves down through the ages have often based their claims on the mistaken belief that Allah is present in man. They merely had to assert that although Allah according to their false beliefs, is in all of us, He is more present in them than in the rest of us. Hence, they claim, we should submit our will to them and worship them as they are either God in person or God concentrated within the person.

Similarly, those who have asserted the godhood of others after their passing have found fertile ground among those who accept the false belief of God's presence in man. One who has grasped the basic message of Islam and its implications could never agree to worship another human being under any circumstances. God's religion in essence is a clear call to the worship of the Creator and the rejection of creation-worship in any form. This is the meaning of the motto of Islam:

"Laa Elaaha lllallaah" (There is no god but Allah)

Its repetition automatically brings one within the fold of Islam and sincere belief in it guarantees one Paradise.

Thus, the final Prophet of Islam is reported to have said, "Any one who says: There is no god but Allah and dies holding that (belief) will enter paradise".(Reported by Abu Dharr and collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).

It consists in the submission to Allah as one God, yielding to Him by obeying His commandments, and the denial of polytheism and polytheists.

[1slam]

There are so many sects, cults, religions, philosophies, and movements in the world, all of which claim to be the right way or the only true path to Allah. How can one determine which one is correct or if, in fact, all are correct? The method by which the answer can be found is to clear away the superficial differences in the teachings of the various claimants to the ultimate truth, and identify the central object of worship to which they call, directly or indirectly. False religions all have in common one basic concept with regards to Allah. They either claim that all men are gods or that specific men were Allah or that nature is Allah or that Allah is a figment of man's imagination.

Thus, it may be stated that the basic message of false religion is that Allah may be worshipped in the form of His creation. False religion invites man to the worship of creation by calling the creation or some aspect of it God. For example, prophet Jesus invited his followers to worship Allah but those who claim to be his followers today call people to worship Jesus, claiming that he was Allah!

Buddha was a reformer who introduced a number of humanistic principles to the religion of India. He did not claim to be God nor did he suggest to his followers that he be an object of worship. Yet, today most Buddhists who are to be found outside of India have taken him to be God and prostrate to idols made in their perception of his likeness.

By using the principle of identifying the object of worship, false religion becomes very obvious and the contrived nature of their origin clear. As God said in the Our'aan:

That which you worship besides Him are only names you and your forefathers have invented for which Allah has sent down no authority: The command belongs only to Allah:

He has commanded that you only worship Him; that is the right religion, but most men do not understand ". (Soorah Yoosuf 12:40)

It may be argued that all religions teach good things so why should it matter which one we follow. The reply is that all false religions teach the greatest evil, the worship of creation. Creation-worship is the greatest sin that man can commit because it contradicts the very purpose of his creation. Man was created to worship Allah alone as Allah has explicitly stated in the Our'aan:

"I have only created Jlnns and men, that they may worship me"(Soorah Zaareeyaat 51:56)

Consequently, the worship of creation, which is the essence of idolatry, is the only unforgivable sin. One who dies in this state of idolatry has sealed his fate in the next life. This is not an opinion, but a revealed fact stated by Allah in his final revelation to man:

"Verily Allah will not forgive the joining of partners with Him, but He may forgive (sins) less than that for whom so ever He wishes"(Soorah An- Nisaa 4:48 and 116)

Since the consequences of false religion are so grave, the true religion of Allah must be universally understandable and attainable, not confined to any people, place or time. There can not be conditions like baptism, belief in a man, as a saviour etc., for a believer to enter paradise. Within the central principle of Islam and in its definition, (the surrender of one's will to God) lies the roots of lslam's universality. Whenever man comes to the realization that Allah is one and distinct from His creation, and submits himself to Allah, he becomes a Muslim in body and spirit and is eligible for paradise. Thus, anyone at anytime in the most remote region of the world can become a Muslim, a follower of God's religion, Islam, by merely rejecting the worship of creation and by turning to Allah (God) alone-It should be noted however, that the recognition of and submission to Allah requires that one chooses between right and wrong and such a choice implies accountability. Man will be held responsible for his choices, and, as such, he should try his utmost to do good and avoid evil. The ultimate good being the worship of Allah alone and the ultimate evil being the worship of His creation along with or instead of Allah. This fact is expressed in the final revelation as follows:

"Verily those who believe, those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), the Christians and the Sabians any who believe In Allah and the last day, and work righteousness *hall have their reward with their Lord;They will not be overcome by fear nor grief (Soorah Al-Baqarah 2:62).

If only they had stood by the law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There Is from among them a party on the right course; but many of them follow a course that Is evil.". (Soorah Al-.Maa'idah 5:66)

The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.

In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'

Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".

If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.

The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).

So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion.

Throughout people's lives from childhood until the time they die, signs are shown to them in all regions of the earth and in their own souls, until it becomes clear that there is only one true God (Allah). If the people are honest with themselves, reject their false gods and seek Allah, the way will be made easy for them but if they continually reject Allah's signs and continue to worship creation, the more difficult it will be for them to escape. For example, in the South Eastern region of the Amazon jungle in Brazil, South America, a primitive tribe erected a new hut to house their main idol Skwatch, representing the supreme God of all creation. The homage to the God, and while he was in prostration to what he had been taught was his Creator and Sustainer, a mangy old flea-ridden dog walked into the hut, The young man looked up in time to see the dog lift its hind leg and pass urine on the idol. Outraged, the youth chased the dog out of the temple, but when his rage died down he realized that the idol could not be the Lordof the universe. Allah must be elsewhere. he now had a choice to act on his knowledge and seek Allah, or to dishonestly go along with the false beliefs of his tribe. As strange as it may seem, that was a sign from Allah for that young man. It contained within it divine guidance that what he was worshipping was false.

Prophets were sent, as was earlier mentioned, to every nation and tribe to support man's natural belief in Allah and man's inborn inclination to worship Him as well as to reinforce the divine truth in the daily signs revealed by Allah. Although, in most cases, much of the prophets' teachings became distorted, portions remained which point out right and wrong. For example, the ten commandments of the Torah, their confirmation in the Gospels and the existence of laws against murder, stealing and adultery in most societies. Consequently, every soul will be held to account for its belief in Allah and its acceptance of the religion of Islam; the total submission to the will of Allah.

We pray to Allah, the exalted, to keep us on the right path to which He has guided us, and to bestow on us a blessing from Him, He is indeed the Most Merciful. Praise and gratitude be to Allah,the Lord of the worlds, and peace and blessings be on prophet Muhammed, his Family, his companions, and those who rightly follow them.

[zynner]

Quote by: 1slam Islam is the true religion of "Allah"

The Christians are just gonna love that one! (lol)

[Islam] also implies "peace" which is the natural consequence of total submission to the will of Allah.

If that were true, then the Middle East would have had several hundred years of peace and love. Instead, it has been a hotbed of violence.

In the final book of divine revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah states the following:

Yes, but these quotes are only what some book says. Why should anyone believe it?

What is your evidence, other than the book itself, that it is true?

and he warned them to stay away from the false gods of human imagination.

Well, of course! Theists do not want anybody to think for themselves. It takes away their power.

By using the principle of identifying the object of worship, false religion becomes very obvious and the contrived nature of their origin clear.

I agree this is true, but it also is clear that you are assuming a god exists in order to prove that a god exists (so you can determine what to worship). So, your thinking is not valid here.

As God said in the Our'aan:

Anybody who does not accept the Koran as valid will not care that you attempt to use it to "prove" anything.

Do Muslims have arguments to support their positions that are NOT quotations of passages in the Koran or Bible or other holy book?

Christians talk about the Argument from Design, for example. Do Muslims have similar logical(?) arguments?

I am assuming they do not, since the Age of Reason never made it to Muslim cultures.

But I am curious to know if Muslims have any sort of external "proofs" of their beliefs in the way Christians do.

Outraged, the youth chased the dog out of the temple, but when his rage died down he realized that the idol could not be the Lordof the universe. Allah must be elsewhere. he now had a choice to act on his knowledge and seek Allah, or to dishonestly go along with the false beliefs of his tribe. As strange as it may seem, that was a sign from Allah for that young man. It contained within it divine guidance that what he was worshipping was false.

Given this story, how do you explain the rage exhibited by Muslims in regard to the Dutch cartoons? Shouldn't the Muslims have realized the cartoons were not actually Allah?

Anyway ...

Thanks for the post. I think the more that theists of different stripes interact, the more likely they are to see how ridiculous the whole thing is.

~ zynner

[1slam]

"If that were true, then the Middle East would have had several hundred years of peace and love. Instead, it has been a hotbed of violence."

Please refer to my post on "is Islam a religion of terror." because the stuff occurring in the middle east was imposed upon us by the western(Christian) nations and Muslims are only defending themselves and resisting the occupation which is a natural element of war. you are only looking at 10 years of our history, considering what the Islamic nations have brought to this word is overwhelming. Islam is the principle of peace, in fact the word itself is derived from the root word peace, Islam doesn't teach us to kill but instead LOVE. Please do not mistake politics for religion for they do not go hand in hand. Also, I am referring to what the koran says to what the concepts of religion is, thats why the title of this topic is ISLAM not RELIGION its ISLAM lol, so im obviously going to state verses from the koran(not for proof) but to show you the background of ISLAM and what we are all about. In retrospect its your choice to accept or reject this message. Your missing the entire point of this thread, Its not arguing about religions if they are true or not its educating individuals about Islam, I am posting MY opinion and im well aware there are other threads which you can argue about religion with. I can assure you my friend Islam is the MOST reasonable and MOST logical religions you will ever encounter. considering our entire Muslim society is built upon the aspect of learning, enriching your learning in order to educate the world. We are encouraged to SEEK more about the universe and in fact the first words dictated to muhammed was READ(RECITE,LEARN). The Koran provides much scientific facts and signs which can be used to proof the koran correct. Islam has many prophecies which the prophet had predicted. So in external proof yes we do have tons of that. Another thing, The Denmark cartoons should have never have occurred considering jewish people are offensive when one insults the tragic events of the holocaust, so if they have every right(in fact a German man was arrested for calling it a lie) to protect what has occurred and to protect there own beliefs about the holocaust and for people to be understanding about this event then I am well aware that people should respect the prophet muhammed. In a democratic nation we have freedom of speech to a certain extent I cant go around calling black people, n-ers considering I would get in trouble by law so the same ruling should apply to this case. Muslims are sensitive about there religion you will notice that every muslim is so devote about there religion, considering its what we can hold on to, our people are starving dying, being slaughtered we are all united by the one true faith of God. We are all black brown, white, yellow etc it doesn't matter what our colors are, what our intentions are, what matters is God and God alone is whom we worship and the prophets are whom we respect graetly. Therefore yes Muslims will get sensitive for insulting the prophet.

[Georgia]

Ankawa.com
(Translation)

A 14 year old Christian Assyrian boy, Ayad Tariq, from Baqouba, Iraq was decapitated at his work place on October 21. Ayad Tariq was working his 12 hour shift, maintaining an electric generator, when a group of disguised Muslim insurgents walked in at the beginning of his shift shortly after 6 a.m. and asked him for his ID. According to another employee who witnessed the events, and who hid when he saw the insurgents approach, the insurgents questioned Ayad after seeing that his ID stated "Christian", asking if he was truly a "Christian sinner." Ayad replied "yes, I am Christian but I am not a sinner." The insurgents quickly said this is a "dirty Christian sinner!" Then they proceeded to each hold one limb, shouting "Allahu akbar! Allahu akbar!" while beheading the boy.

I wouldn't call that peaceful co-existance.

Muslim Rape, Feminist Silence

"women who do not veil themselves, and allow themselves to be "uncovered meat", are at fault if they are raped" in Denmark, al-Hilali's Australian counterpart, the Mufti Shahid Mehdi, declared exactly the same thing, stating that unveiled women are "asking for rape." "seventy-five percent of the women in prison in Pakistan are behind bars for the crime of being a victim of rape" In Holland, myriad women now bear the horrible scar that has infamously become known as "smiley," whereby one side of the face is cut up from mouth to ear - a war mark left by Muslim rapists as a warning to other women who don't veil themselves. In France, the phenomenon of Muslim gang rape as punishment for non-veiling even has a word to describe it: "tournante" (take your turn). In areas where Muslims form the majority (i.e. the Muslim suburb of Courneuve, France), even non-Muslim women feel pressured to veil themselves in fear of Muslim sexual and physical punishment.

Muslim Violence Increasing in France

An average of 14 officers per day are said to be injured by Muslim radicals, with 2,500 police already wounded in 2006.

A 'permanent intifada' in France?

Scenes from the jihad

"Afghanistan: The kidnappers of Italian photojournalist Gabriele Torsello threaten to murder him unless Abdul Rahman, an Afghan Christian convert, is returned to Afghanistan and handed over to an Islamic court." "Iran: The president of Iran calls Israel "a group of terrorists" and threatens to harm any country that supports the Jewish state. "This is an ultimatum," "Thailand: Islamist terrorists bomb a column of Buddhist monks as they collect offerings of food in Narathiwat, a city in southern Thailand" "Britain: In a "true Islamic state," sexually active homosexuals would be executed, says Arshad Misbahi, an imam in Manchester's Central Mosque" "Czech intelligence agents thwarted an Islamist plan to seize the Central Synagogue in Prague on Rosh Hashanah, hold the Jewish worshipers hostage, and then blow up the building with its occupants"

1slam you say the violence is in the Middle East, how do you explain the WORLD-WIDE Jihad?

Therefore yes Muslims will get sensitive for insulting the prophet.

Sensitive? I'd say that violence, riots and murder is a bit more than sensitive.

Now I'm not saying that the majority of Muslims are violent: I think the radicals represent a small percentive.
But Islam sure seems to be the conduit of choice today for those who would riot, burn, rape and kill those who beleive differently.

our entire Muslim society is built upon the aspect of learning, enriching your learning in order to educate the world.

Then why have most of the 20th century advancements in technology, medicine and other positive aspects came from western-based countries?

[zynner]

Quote by: 1slam the stuff occurring in the middle east was imposed upon us by the western(Christian) nations and Muslims are only defending themselves and resisting the occupation which is a natural element of war ... you are only looking at 10 years of our history,

No, not me. I realize it goes back 1,000+ years. I realize that the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979 was a response to the US overthrow of the democratically-elected government in 1953 and the installation of the brutal dictator, the Shah of Iran. I realize that what goes on today has ties that go way, way back to evil acts imposed upon the people there. I am absolutely against the US government (or any government) installing and supporting dictators who are brutal against the people there. It is their land. The West should get the hell out. That's my position.

BUT ... that does not change the fact that the Islamic culture itself is brutal.

considering what the Islamic nations have brought to this word is overwhelming.

Sure, there have been contributions -- BEFORE Islam took hold in the region. Islam itself has contributed little if anything of value from what I know of it. But go ahead and update me because maybe I missed something.

Also, I am referring to what the koran says to what the concepts of religion is,

To me, it is irrelevant what a particular holy book says if the people who practice it actually act differently than how they claim they are supposed to act. And I am not talking about Islam vs. the West. I am talking about Muslims interacting within their own culture -- how they treat each other. It is not peaceful.

So, I don't care what your interpretation or anyone else's is of the Koran. What I look at is how Muslims interact with each other in their own societies.

I am not impressed.

Your missing the entire point of this thread, Its not arguing about religions if they are true or not its educating individuals about Islam,

OK. And I do find value in that. Really, I do.

I also find value in pointing out that it doesn't happen to be true, not any more than Christianity or any other religion.

I can assure you my friend Islam is the MOST reasonable and MOST logical religions you will ever encounter.

Saying it is the "most logical" does not mean anything when the entire program is built on the premise that logic does not apply.

considering our entire Muslim society is built upon the aspect of learning, enriching your learning in order to educate the world. We are encouraged to SEEK more about the universe

Ah ... but there is the problem. You see, the Age of Reason is what has advanced mankind out of the Dark Ages of irrationality. This occured only in the West. Muslim cultures never received this information.

And that is why Muslim culture is locked into irrational thought. You might say that Islam is a way of seeking knowledge of the Universe, but it is not true.

What Islam encourages Muslims to do is to seek a belief in a non-existent supernatural being. If Muslims were seeking knowledge about the Universe, then it would be *their* culture that had the great advancements of knowledge in human history. But that is not the case. Instead, they are locked into mideval ways and supersitions.

The only thing Muslims seek is some "better" understanding of God/Allah, not knowledge about the world in general.

The Koran provides much scientific facts and signs which can be used to proof the koran correct.

Please provide some examples.

Islam has many prophecies which the prophet had predicted. So in external proof yes we do have tons of that.

Please provide some examples.

Another thing, The Denmark cartoons should have never have occurred considering jewish people are offensive when one insults the tragic events of the holocaust, so if they have every right(in fact a German man was arrested for calling it a lie) to protect what has occurred and to protect there own beliefs about the holocaust and for people to be understanding about this event then I am well aware that people should respect the prophet muhammed.

First, I am completely against German laws that prohibit free discussion about the events of the Holocaust. Those laws and the people who support them are disgusting.

Second, that does not change the FACT that Muslims around the world became violent at cartoons. YOU said that no Muslim would/should worship anything other that Allah, and yet the reaction is one of people worshiping the prophet. So, I was pointing out the hypocracy of saying Muslims do not worship anything other than Allah when clearly some do. (Yes, I know you can say they made a mistake, but the point is that they did it.)

In a democratic nation we have freedom of speech to a certain extent I cant go around calling black people, n-ers considering I would get in trouble by law so the same ruling should apply to this case.

One bad law does not justify another bad law. There should not be a law against calling anyone a nigger.

Finally, I will say this. I do think there is value in you posting about Islam. I hope you continue to do it. I really do. I think it's good for Christians, atheists, and everyone else to read it.

I also acknowledge that it is very difficult to practice any ideas of peace when your homeland is constantly invaded and puppet dictators, who brutalize the people, are supported.

You should also acknowledge that Islamic culture is -- in the real world -- very brutal. The people are not peaceful towards each other. At least, they are not as peaceful towards each other as are people in the West. Their culture also never advances. Yes, easy for me to say when I don't have bombs constantly dropping on me. But shouldn't there be something to show that Islamic culture really is peaceful and really does seek knowledge?

Just look at it from my perspective for a moment. Consider the idea that there is no Allah. That he does not exist and never has. Wouldn't the entire Muslim population have wasted a lot in pursuit of a lie? It actually breaks my heart to see that, and the same is true of any religious people. I hate to see the bloodshed it causes and the damaged lives. But the fact remains: there is no god. And people continue to be abused for a lie.

So, I challenge you to question your own beliefs.

~ zynner

[Abdullah]

Good post ahky :)

[rcne]

Of all the religions, what makes Islam the only choice. And once you chose Islam, if you do, which one of the four sects is the correct choice?

1.Sunnism: 940 million
2.Shi'ism: 120 million
3.Ahmadiyya: 10 million
4.Druze: 450,000

Whose version of the truth is true???

Christianity: 2.1 billion (Began: ca. 27 AD/CE), with major branches as follows: See also the List of Christian denominations by number of members and List of Christian denominations pages Catholic: 1.05 billion Orthodox/Eastern Christian: 240 million African Indigenous Sects: 110 million Pentecostal: 105 million Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United: 75 million Anglican/Episcopal: 73 million Baptist: 70 million Methodist: 70 million Lutheran: 64 million Jehovah's Witnesses: 14.8 million Latter-Day Saints: 12.5 million Adventists: 12 million Apostolic/New Apostolic: 10 million Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement: 5.4 million New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.): 1.5 million Brethren (incl. Plymouth): 1.5 million Mennonite: 1.25 million Friends/Quakers: 300,000 Islam: 1.3 billion (Began: ca. 622 AD/CE), with major branches as follows: *** Sunnism: 940 million Shi'ism: 120 million Ahmadiyya: 10 million Druze: 450,000 Secular/irreligious/agnostic/atheist/antitheistic/antireligious: 1.1 billion Category includes a wide range of beliefs, without specifically adhering to a religion. The category also includes humanism, deism, pantheism, freethought, and Juche. For more information, see the Adherents.com discussion of this category and the note below. ** Hinduism: 900 million (Began: approximately 1500 BC/BCE or 15th century BC/BCE however some aspects of it trace its history to 2600 BC/BCE or 26th century BC/BCE) Vaishnavism: 580 million Shaivism: 220 million Neo-Hindus and Reform Hindus: 22 million Veerashaivas/Lingayats: 10 million Chinese folk religion: 394 million Not a single organized religion, includes elements of Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism and traditional nonscriptural religious observance (also called "Chinese traditional religion"). Buddhism: 376 million (Began: 6th century BC/BCE) Mahayana: 185 million Theravada: 124 million Vajrayana/Tibetan: 20 million Primal indigenous: 300 million Not a single organized religion, includes a wide range of primarily Asian traditional or tribal religions, including Shamanism and Paganism. African traditional and diasporic: 100 million Not a single organized religion, this includes several traditional African beliefs and philosophies such as those of the Yoruba, Ewe (vodun) and the Bakongo. These three religious traditions (especially that of the Yoruba) have been very influential to the diasporic beliefs of the Americas such as condomble, santeria and voodoo. The religious capital of the Yoruba religion is at Ile Ife. Sikhism: 23 million (Began: 1500s AD/CE) Spiritism: 15 million (Began: mid-19th century AD/CE) Not a single organized religion, includes a variety of beliefs including some forms of Umbanda. Judaism: 14 million (Began: 13th century BC/BCE) Conservative: 4.5 million Unaffiliated and Secular: 4.5 million Reform: 3.75 million Orthodox: 2 million Reconstructionist: 150,000 Bahá'í Faith: 7 million (Began: 19th century AD/CE) Jainism: 4.2 million (Began: 6th century BC/BCE) Svetambara: 4 million Sthanakvasi: 750,000 Digambara: 155,000 Shinto: 4 million (Began: 300 BC/BCE) This number states the number of actual self-identifying practicing primary followers of Shinto; if everyone were included who is considered Shinto by some people due to ethnic or historical categorizations, the number would be considerably higher — as high as 100 million. Cao Dai: 4 million (Began: 1926 AD/CE) Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million (Began: Sometime between 16th and 6th century BC/BCE) Parsis: 110,000 Gabars: 20,000 Falun Gong: 2.1 million* (Began: 1992 AD/CE) Not necessarily considered a religion by adherents or outside observers. No membership or rosters, thus the actual figure of practitioners is impossible to confirm. Tenrikyo: 2 million (Began: 1838 AD/CE) Neopaganism: 1 million (Began: 20th century AD/CE) A blanket term for several religions like Wicca, Asatru, Neo-druidism, and polytheistic reconstructionist religions Unitarian Universalism: 800,000 (Began: 1961 AD/CE) Rastafari: 600,000 (Began: early 1930s AD/CE) Scientology: 500,000 (Began: 1952 AD/CE)

[1slam]

Salam ou alakoum brother :) Listen, your telling me Muslims don't have the right to defend themselves from the west trying to impose false government regimes? What you are saying is simple blatant nonsense. Show me where God commands us to murder or rape or cause "havoc" in the quran. You clearly fail to realize what terrorism actually is. You gotta understand the nature of occupation, and what the resistance is. You've got to be the absolute dumbest person on this planet not to realize that when u oppress a nation PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FIGHT BACK, thats what war is. When u kill innocent children, THOSE CHILDREN HAVE BROTHERS AND FATHERS who would have there blood spilled to destroy the fiends who caused it, my friend that is what war is. Its an ongoing cycle of hate, me nor my religion allow this dreadful acts. But you cant subject us to years of oppression without freedom and not expect us to resist.What do you know about Islamic culture? You know ABSOLUTELY nothing about Islam because your too ignorant to read about it yourself, instead you blindly believe what the media tells you. Islam has contributed so much, I do recall the Islamic empire literally bringing the Europeans OUT of the dark age through there advancements in science and technology WHICH BTW was extracted from the KORAN ITSELF!!! You know NOTHING bout history, Europe was brought out od the dark ages when they finally realized they had to separate religion from state considering the scientific contradictions in the bible. The church stepped down from the government plate and allowed the advancements of science. But my point being Islam was not the case, Logic and faith CAN intermingle in an Islamic system, Considering the fact the Muslim government system(shariah) gives people MORE freedom then democracy itself. The Muslims were one of the first nations to adopt the whole concept of voting because it was dictated to muhammed by God on how to rule a community. Honestly did you even read my post, your making false accusations and summaries about what I have said. How can you be the one to dictate things to me about my OWN religion, and what God tells us to do when you know absolutely NOTHING about this topic. Please, I suggest you learn before speaking. God TELLS Muslims we should seek more about the universe, understand the world we live in because in retrospect it would inevitably make you a better believer. On the basis of the Muhammed cartoon, Muhammed was a prophet a true believer, a well respected MAN not GOD. How is this showing hypocrisy, when we respect this man so much? Muhammed was the prophet whom the divine revelations of the quran was brought to surely everyone should respect the fact that we are entitled to love him for this fact? You don't see muslims painting cartoons of Jesus. You fail to realize I dont worship my religion because the actions of other people, frankly I dont consider people whom murder steal and corrupt to be muslims. It is a bond between ME and GOD, so therefore I rlly dont base my religion upon other people. Another thing, I hate every Islamic countries government on this planet, wait let me restate that I hate every politician on this planet, because you cant give man too much power. The fact is many of our own political leaders are greatly influence and controlled by western societies. Ive lived in Saudi Arabia for 3 years and the laws there are completely fine(although I do disagree with some including the political system).

I just ask you to backup all your points you are making instead of making false accusations thank you and pz.

Btw for the scientific stuff in the quran ill redirect you to a good link

IslamiCity.com - Islam, Qur’an & Science

[1slam]

rcne I dont believe in "Islamic sects" there are sects in every religion. I am a believer in Islam and justly Islam , The prophet muhammed forbid us to divide our religion. Honestly, divisions in anything cause problems. There shouldn't even be division between Christians and jews, we are ALL brothers of the covenant we are all the people of the book and should love and respect and learn from each other... there no need for fighting. Also, muslims worldwide believe the quran was 100% correct and the divine revelation of god, Its not like christian sects where each sect has a version of the bible. The arguments we make re about hadiths(which are not considered divine) and also some political and historical arguments which cause division. really Islam itself is a system which we all agree on.

[zynner]

1slam --

To whom are you responding? It's not clear. Some points:

(1) Nobody in this thread said that Muslims don't have the right to fight back against the West. Where are you getting that?

(2) What people in this thread ARE saying is that Muslim societies are not peaceful, as they relate to one another (as well as others). Committing acts of violence against someone who claims to be a Christian rather than a Muslim, or against someone who draws cartoons about Muhammad are examples. There are many more.

(3) It does not matter if the Koran says this or that. What matters is how people actually treat one another. Muslim culture is not one of peace, regardless of what their book says they should do.

(4) I realize that occupation changes how people would otherwise behave. Still, I am talking about how they act towards each other, as well as others. Rioting against a cartoon artist and threatening to kill him are not the actions of a peaceful, loving person. Again, that is just one example.

(5) The Islamic culture did NOT bring the Europeans out of the Dark Ages. It was the thinkers of Western Europe who flourished in the Age of Reason who did that. It was reason that brought people out of the irrationality of the Dark Ages. The Middle East never had the advantage of that, and that is why they are stuck in the Dark Ages today.

The scientific method was discovered by Francis Bacon. Medical advances and a system of justice are a couple of examples that arose out of the Enlightenment, which was a result of reason, not faith. Nobody in the Muslim world had anything to do with this. Please provide examples if you disagree.

(6) The separation of church and state did not occur in the Middle East. Hell, the UNION of church/mosque and state is ALL OVER the Middle East today! How can you say the Muslims did anything to promote the idea of a separation? Nonsense!

(7) Logic and faith are polar opposites. The West discovered this through Aristotle and others after him. Islam cannot bring the two together because doing so is in impossibility.

(8) Muslims did NOT come up with the concept of voting. Ancient Greece came up with the concept of democracy, which included voting. Voting itself probably goes way back, millions of years.

God TELLS Muslims we should seek more about the universe, understand the world we live in because in retrospect it would inevitably make you a better believer.

Yes, and THAT is my point! Islam is about getting you to believe in your god. It is NOT about learning truth. It simply defines "truth" as a belief in a god.

On the basis of the Muhammed cartoon...How is this showing hypocrisy,

Because people want to KILL an artist for making a joke. That is NOT love and peace. Even Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek." Do Muslims practice that idea? Muslims certainly do not understand the concept of "Justice." You do not kill someone for making a joke. And the fact that some would want to do that suggests they are worshipping someone other than their god, which they claim they cannot do. It's hypocritical.

You don't see muslims painting cartoons of Jesus.

And if they did, Christians would not threated to KILL them. They would be pissed off, but Christains (for the most part) have learned about justice -- BECAUSE OF reason.

I dont consider people whom murder steal and corrupt to be muslims.

Good. They do, though, and their societies are full of these people. That is not to say that Christian and especially Jewish societies are not just as bad. They are -- almost.

I hate every Islamic countries government on this planet, wait let me restate that I hate every politician on this planet, because you cant give man too much power.

Hey, you and I are on the same page on that!

The fact is many of our own political leaders are greatly influence and controlled by western societies.

Yes, I understand that. It is horrible.

Ive lived in Saudi Arabia for 3 years and the laws there are completely fine(although I do disagree with some including the political system).

No sex outside of marriage -- at the point of a gun to keep you in line? Not good.

Death penalty for homosexuals? Not good.

Hey, I understand that the so-called "royal family" of Saudi Arabia are nothing but dictators in nice clothes. And I realize they are only there becaues of the US gov't -- especially the Bush family. And I realize most Saudis would want to get rid of them.

BUT ... it is also true that the average Saudi agrees with some pretty disgusting ideas when it comes to the laws.

Regarding your link, I have a couple of questions.

(1) What if it turns out that the Universe is NOT expanding? What would you say about the Koran saying it is? Would you be able to accept scientific proof that is contrary to the Koran, or would you claim that the Koran says something different?

(2) The Evolution references do not say anything about Evolution. Is it possible that someone just took some passages from the Koran and tried to fit them to mean things that were later discovered? In other words, were these passages accepted by Muslims BEFORE science discovered the facts or AFTER?

~ zynner

[1slam]

(1) Nobody in this thread said that Muslims don't have the right to fight back against the West. Where are you getting that?

Reread the thread please, or possibly look at the title.


(2) What people in this thread ARE saying is that Muslim societies are not peaceful, as they relate to one another (as well as others). Committing acts of violence against someone who claims to be a Christian rather than a Muslim, or against someone who draws cartoons about Muhammad are examples. There are many more.

Honestly no society is peaceful, your being rather ethnocentric about this. your societies have violent acts against Muslims as well, in my city tons of mosques were vandalized what do you call that? Please, don't point the finger when your probably even worse or just as bad, the fact is those people don't represent Islam.

(3) It does not matter if the Koran says this or that. What matters is how people actually treat one another. Muslim culture is not one of peace, regardless of what their book says they should do.

Again reread the title, its called Islam, therefore i am entitled to provide scriptural proof(you don't have to believe it) to back my points up. You fail to realize im not forcing you to believe anything, its your choice.

"(4) I realize that occupation changes how people would otherwise behave. Still, I am talking about how they act towards each other, as well as others. Rioting against a cartoon artist and threatening to kill him are not the actions of a peaceful, loving person. Again, that is just one example."

You don't know how Muslims act towards each other only through what the media tells you so please don't make comments on things you know nothing about cause i assure you Muslims treat eachother with so much respect.

"(5) The Islamic culture did NOT bring the Europeans out of the Dark Ages. It was the thinkers of Western Europe who flourished in the Age of Reason who did that. It was reason that brought people out of the irrationality of the Dark Ages. The Middle East never had the advantage of that, and that is why they are stuck in the Dark Ages today."

many of those western thinkers originated from universities in Spain or (Andalusia) formerly owned by the Islamic empire. The Muslims brought the basic knowledge towards the European thinkers thus promoting the age of reason.

"(6) The separation of church and state did not occur in the Middle East. Hell, the UNION of church/mosque and state is ALL OVER the Middle East today! How can you say the Muslims did anything to promote the idea of a separation? Nonsense!"

dude.. i never said separation between church and state was present in the middle east, What I said was it was separated in Europe because Christianity contradicted science but Islam on the other hand remained in tact without scientific contradictions and many scientific facts were extracted from the quran itself.

"(7) Logic and faith are polar opposites. The West discovered this through Aristotle and others after him. Islam cannot bring the two together because doing so is in impossibility."

I am saying there is much logic in the Islamic religion and Much faith which both are required. Again please stop misinterpreting my words.

"(8) Muslims did NOT come up with the concept of voting. Ancient Greece came up with the concept of democracy, which included voting. Voting itself probably goes way back, millions of years."

Honestly, please stop misinterpreting my word i never said Muslims invented it they were one of the first empires to adopt it but the previous empire which adopted a form of democracy did have many primitive roots to it. Like the cheance Leon ruling of 546 AD. Im telling you that the religion of Islam provides more freedom on the citizen side rather then imposing licenses and permissions from the government the Islamic empire monitors a society. About the link I gave you, we have quranic copies dated back to 1400 years ago and they are absolutely unchanged 100% from today, therefore we know the quran i have at home is an authentic copy of along time ago. How could it be a book, historically proven to be dated back 1400 years ago possibly contain scientific facts that only our modern civilization would have known? Dude,,, Expansion of the universe is an accepted scientific theory when Hubble discovered the universe was red shifted meaning it was moving towards the red spectrum(moving away from the origin) therefore it is growing.Most muslims hate all politicians because theya re all evil, theres no such thing as an Islamic system of government on this planet(countries claim they have it but there just US pumped up bullshit states and puppet governments). I don't agree with there laws nor do the 1.7 billion Muslims world wide therefore i don't regard it an act of Islam but rather an act of crude power.

[GHook93]

Quote by: 1slam "If that were true, then the Middle East would have had several hundred years of peace and love. Instead, it has been a hotbed of violence." Please refer to my post on "is Islam a religion of terror." because the stuff occurring in the middle east was imposed upon us by the western(Christian) nations and Muslims are only defending themselves and resisting the occupation which is a natural element of war. you are only looking at 10 years of our history, considering what the Islamic nations have brought to this word is overwhelming. .

That is why the Sunni and Shiites just love each other. Or why Lebannon and Syria warred. Or why Muslims in African commitment genocide on all non-Muslims (specifically Christians) time and time again. Why Iran and Iraq fought.

[Georgia]

1slam your assertion that muslim violence is caused by Americas Mid Eastern wars and imperialism doesn't stand up.

Muslim violence is across the globe.
The last time I was in the Philippines was back in 2003...I believe. While I was there a band of Muslims attacked a popular resort, murdering several Philippinas and took many Chinese businessmen and some Americans hostage.

Later in the week a Muslim bomb exploded outside of Cebu....placed in a bicycle basket in a market killing/maiming/injuring many people.

Muslims aren't "opressed" in the Philippines, in fact they control most if not all of Mindenow (Southern third) and known as the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, the MLIF.
Why would these peaceful people plant explosives around the country to kill as many people as possible? Because they want control over the population under the name of Allah.
Convert to Islam- Or die.

[rcne]

Convert to Islam- Or die.

I think I've read this in a history book. Hmm this was way before the plight of Palestine. In fact I think this is the Peace offered to non Muslim.
Look to history if you doubt.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

1 Slam

We pray to Allah, the exalted, to keep us on the right path to which He has guided us, and to bestow on us a blessing from Him, He is indeed the Most Merciful. Praise and gratitude be to Allah,the Lord of the worlds, and peace and blessings be on prophet Muhammed, his Family, his companions, and those who rightly follow them.

Interesting idea praying and giving praise! So human :)