Abstract verses personal God

[Athena]

Nathan Struth said, I don't like buddhism it's too spiritual. I'm aethist and I cary the same morals as I had when I was raised jewish. I turnned when I was about 15. And now shit still don't stop. My morals are the same. I dont' steal, but religion is irrelevent. It's human nature that's bad... __________________ I'm just a fool caught in the rat race of life (Nathan Struth) please help me solve world hunger, It's hard to do it alone.

I hope you don't mind me starting this thread with you quote, but I woke this morning thinking, the original Hebrew concept of God was abstract, and Christians personalised this God with Jesus. Mohammed, barrowed from the Jews and Christians, and personalized the same idea of God for Arabs; only they clearly don't claim that Mohammed is the son of God, just that an Angel of God spoke directly to one of them.

Like the problem with Judaism is the idea that a God has a special relationship with one group of people, and you have to be born into this group to be part of it. (it is a tribal religion that was common in its time) This really bites for everyone who isn't born into this special relationship with God. Interesting how the story to Able and Caine is interpreted to claim Arabs are too born into this special relation with God.

Whatever, this God didn't become a universal God, until Hellemism, and than we return to an abstract God. Christianity leans heavily on Plato and Stoicism. Unfortunately is also carries the mysticism and demons of the eastern influence.

But I am not a learned Jew nor a learned Muslim, and I would like to hear from those who know about their religious groups' reasoning, with the hope of dialogue for reasoning, rather than debate with everyone trying to win, by causing another to loose. Frankly, I hope we can agree on an abstract God, and drop the personalizing of this God that divides us. That is how the US became one nation under God, by accepting an abstract concept of God, and tolerating different points of view. That is democracy, and we can not spread it with weapons, as David's jealous and fearsome, God of war, took land for the Hebrews. It is spread only through reasoning, and includes even those of us who do not claim membership in a religious group.

[1slam]

Well first of all, Islam is one of the few religions which isn't named after a person tribe, group or anything except the total submission to god! Islam is an action in which many people from different religions pursue to accomplish. Islam is a religion for anybody, of any race, colour, ethnic background! In fact 80% of Muslims are non Arab the majority are Indonesians! So therefore you cant say its selective when many verses clearly state that we are all equal in worship and in deeds and in standards.Since the consequences of false religion are so grave, the true religion of Allah must be universally understandable and attainable, not confined to any people, place or time. There can not be conditions like baptism, belief in a man, as a saviour etc., for a believer to enter paradise. Within the central principle of Islam and in its definition, (the surrender of one's will to God) lies the roots of lslam's universality. Whenever man comes to the realization that Allah is one and distinct from His creation, and submits himself to Allah, he becomes a Muslim in body and spirit and is eligible for paradise. Thus, anyone at anytime in the most remote region of the world can become a Muslim, a follower of God's religion, Islam, by merely rejecting the worship of creation and by turning to Allah (God) alone-It should be noted however, that the recognition of and submission to Allah requires that one chooses between right and wrong and such a choice implies accountability. Man will be held responsible for his choices, and, as such, he should try his utmost to do good and avoid evil. The ultimate good being the worship of Allah alone and the ultimate evil being the worship of His creation along with or instead of Allah. This fact is expressed in the final revelation as follows:

[Wirya]

AFAIK, in Islam Alloh is real, Alloh is not an abstraction of something.

[1slam]

I agree with you Athena about the needless fighting and killing! I don't think I would agree with your abstract concept of god because your view is different then everyone else's therefore we must all accept each others views but to you the concept of Christianity or other religious "gods" may be abstract but to ones own faith it wouldn't' be and thats human nature! We should all simply just accept each others view points and learn from each other instead of demanding one to accept your values,mores,beliefs,folkways. We were created as a human species as the SAME creation from the SAME creator, instead of seeking for our differences why don't we seek for our similarities and teach each other our own concept of God, and philosophy! The thing is, people get into the assumptions and creativity of the nature of god which really shouldn't be taken place. Yes, I can theorize about the nature of God and the universe but can I really be certain to what it is because the truth lies with the lord. Everything is upon the absolute will of god and God has knowledge over all things, so when one simply does not understand a concept it is encouraged for him to learn, but when a concept is too abstract for our brains to comprehend we cannot make absolute theories upon it, because again only god knows I hope I have shared my view points and Inshallah we can learn a lot from each other :).

[Athena]

1slam wrote, "The thing is, people get into the assumptions and creativity of the nature of god which really shouldn't be taken place".

I do not understand your words? I think I am directly opposed to what you said? No offense intended, just confusion.

I hold that Hellenism to be the most reasonable. That is, we can not know God. God is beyond our comprehension. The best we can do is understand some universal truths through observation and logic. There are many inspired writings, and I have had my moments of inspiration, but I don't think at any time did anyone hear angels, or in other way received special knowledge of God. Like I sincerely believe Hebrews translated Sumerian stories, therefore, all following religions are based on myths that would not believable to the followers of any religion.

That we all have the same capcity of knowing, and what we can know is of this earth and perhaps unversial laws, such a triangle is a triangle on earth, the moon or any other place in the universe. The laws of physics are universal, and there are laws that govern our behaviors that universal. These we can study and we can know, and this is best knowing, because with this knowledge we can make the best decisions. Is this what you mean by studying creativity of the nature of god? What is the logic what you believe then? Seriously, if I understand you correctly, it is like waking up in a completely different universe where nothing makes sense. It is like discovering up is down and everyone and everything moves backwards. Respectfully, it is as beyond my comprehension. I just can't wrap my mine around what I think you are saying.

I hope you can enjoy the fun of having such different points of view. With my Hellenistic point of view, I think the best way to come to truth is from different points of view. It is like being a kid and sharing all the fun of discovery with someone.

[Athena]

I hope some Christians reply, because it is my understanding many of them have a very personal God and believe this God has a personality not so different from a human personality. And this God rules by whim depending on it He is pleased or displeased or displeased with humans. This God would be above universal laws. How does such a God work?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena I hope some Christians reply, because it is my understanding many of them have a very personal God and believe this God has a personality not so different from a human personality. And this God rules by whim depending on it He is pleased or displeased or displeased with humans. This God would be above universal laws. How does such a God work?

There is nothing much to understand from 1Slam' description. What he wrote is based on creator and creation philosophy thus making it a personal type of God though abstract in quality.

The God, Athena is in search of is universal one and infinite. Our whole universe is one such infinite identity having infinite properties, nature and laws to govern. If that infinite God exist in any fashion that too would become insito part and parcel of this universe only. This I have nany a times discussed based on Self (with individualistic Ego of identity) and Supreme-Self ( without any individualistic Ego of identity). Thus to me, if we want to attain the state of ultimate we are bound to erase our own individualistic ego of existence.:) :eek:

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep There is nothing much to understand from 1Slam' description. What he wrote is based on creator and creation philosophy thus making it a personal type of God though abstract in quality. The God, Athena is in search of is universal one and infinite. Our whole universe is one such infinite identity having infinite properties, nature and laws to govern. If that infinite God exist in any fashion that too would become insito part and parcel of this universe only. This I have nany a times discussed based on Self (with individualistic Ego of identity) and Supreme-Self ( without any individualistic Ego of identity). Thus to me, if we want to attain the state of ultimate we are bound to erase our own individualistic ego of existence.:) :eek:

Wow, Kuldeep, you really add something to our discussions! I am so glad you are here. I am struggling to wrap my mind around what you said, and this is exciting. How much of a benefit or problem are our ego's? I must start a thread for this. I think we need a better grasp of the concept of indivdual egos, verses a belief in God that is beyond egos! Like Hebrews identify themselves as Hebrews, people with a special relationship with God. This is ego driven is it not, compared to believing everything is an expression of God and therefore, there are no people with a special relationship with God, and therefore, a God isn't willing a special group of people, to claim a special place on earth, and to preform religious rituals. This personal God requires ego driven people, does it not? Like there is a relationship between a personal God and ego, right?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena Wow, Kuldeep, you really add something to our discussions! I am so glad you are here. I am struggling to wrap my mind around what you said, and this is exciting. How much of a benefit or problem are our ego's? I must start a thread for this. I think we need a better grasp of the concept of indivdual egos, verses a belief in God that is beyond egos! Like Hebrews identify themselves as Hebrews, people with a special relationship with God. This is ego driven is it not, compared to believing everything is an expression of God and therefore, there are no people with a special relationship with God, and therefore, a God isn't willing a special group of people, to claim a special place on earth, and to preform religious rituals. This personal God requires ego driven people, does it not? Like there is a relationship between a personal God and ego, right?

Wonderful! You have grasped definition of Ego and therefore could just feel the state of Egolessness. What you think of personal Gods and special people around it are all binded by Ego and therfore are of finite nature. But Egoless state of consciouness is unlimited, infinite and an absolute reality. But then I too am confused, truly speaking, when I try to imagine the state of Egoless Conscience. This is because while having myself a sort of definite Ego, I feel Egoless existence may not be even possible. Frankly speaking that is a state, probably, just to feel only since it might be beyond description and therefore can not be expressed by an identity having its own Ego. I hope, I am clear to speak out my mind in short passage. :eek:

[another day]

I agree with all this and believe in an abstract "god". I don't even like to say god because that has been associated with the personalized egotistical creator that is seen in the bible and other religions. This idea is by far and away the most damaging beliefin the history of the world. A personal god, not religion itself, is what has caused all the war and horror throughout history. When you make god a mere "man" with an ego, emotions, anger, revenge then you inevitably open GOD up to EXPLOITATION. And that is what the christians did in the crusades, that is what the islamic terrorists are doing today. They are exploiting the concept of god for their own egotistical reasons, they are saying "He's on our side".

This idea of a personal god to me is like saying that god is nothing more then a sort of "King" of the universe, just like a king of a country on earth. It is a flawed approach to the divine that doesn't let loose of the human bonds. Rather then a being that rules and watches over, we must think of god as reality, the universe, everything in it, as one.

[Kuldeep]

Thanks, another day, for your wisdom to second the idea! I can fore see, if on some Good Friday or Sunday or, any other week day, when all the so called fundamentalistic leaders of all leading world religions also understand this simple logic, that world would turn into real paradise on earth! A possibility of existence of world without a religion...THAT DAY, however, seems to be muti-billion light years away!!!! :rolleyes: :eek: :( :) :confused:

[Dadoo]

Or, today. If existence be yours, it is yours alone.
Who gives a rat's ass what anyone thinks.

You? Really??
Surely, not you! Still?

C'mon! even after all that?
Waiting on one side or the other of self-actualization. Your relationship to the absolute has nothing to do with anyone else's POV.

-Unless... It does. Then, you are not thinking for the self.

Sorry to offend those with very strong opinion.
*wink*
dadoo

[Kuldeep]

You are very correct in that but I talk of manifested world with possibility of one religion viz. Humanity.

Yes me and my relation with absolute is through consciousness and defintely independant of religion. Anyway, thanks for reminding me the relation between me and absolute !!!

[arielmessenger]

There is no other rational explanation for the different religious paths other than some are closer to the truth than others but all traditional paths thus far have failed to unite humanity under one universal spiritual belief system.

The Abrahamic god cannot be trusted any longer to convey truth to its spokesmen, the Abrahamic prophets, as I have already posted elsewhere, because who now can ever believe any Abrahamic prophet when whatever supposed monotheistic god of Abraham it is cannot tell the difference between Hindu Vedic gods and human beings.

The ego-less path of Hinduism and refined in Buddhism is also headed towards its own End Times as now science confirms the meditative path is only a means of brain manipulation that if successful shuts off electrical activity in the brain's sense of self center and shunts the electrical energy towards the forward frontal lobes where higher cognition takes place. In other words, meditation to lose the self and find the Higher Self is an illusion, a brain physically tranquilized by meditative techniques to perceive the world without a sense of self. The world perceived by such a tranquilized brain appears different and a wonderously self-evident ocean of cosmic bliss to some meditators. But such perception can never be assumed to be real anymore than asking a person tranquilized on drugs what sort of world we live in. It's a totally false perception no more real than my LSD hallucinations back in the '60's. Which explains why neither Hinduism or Buddhism has ever led any society embracing it to successful social development. Neither India, Tibet, Burma, or any of the Hindu, Buddhist dominated countries have progressed anywhere near as far as the West in terms of social advancement, health-care, education, etc. because the Hindu/Buddhist philosophy ultimately destroys the urge for creative novelty--tranquil Nature dominates art and traditions rule the day..it takes an ego to create..

A prophet brings the truth to the world or that is the purpose of his or her vision and revelation. It is a form of advanced knowledge given by God to guide human social development. These are the End Times of many traditional religious pathways but God has heard the cry for universal spiritual belief and responded with prophesy that is right here in front of you to be tested for congruency to real life so that you can see for yourselves why prophets of God have led Western civilization when philosophers and philosophies have come and gone..

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep Thanks, another day, for your wisdom to second the idea! I can fore see, if on some Good Friday or Sunday or, any other week day, when all the so called fundamentalistic leaders of all leading world religions also understand this simple logic, that world would turn into real paradise on earth! A possibility of existence of world without a religion...THAT DAY, however, seems to be muti-billion light years away!!!! :rolleyes: :eek: :( :) :confused:

It has been awhile since I read this thread, and now even my own thoughts expressed here seem foriegn to me.

Today I come to the thread from the signs thread, and the realization of how greatly perfect consciousness would change our concept of reality.
Perfect consciousness not only knows about viruses, but everything there is to know about virus, how they communicate with each other and distingish who is one of them and who is not, and much more. Perfect consciousness, like calculus, makes us aware that the object we look at has shape and a side we do not see.

I don't know how to express this thought, other than to see it is Platonic in nature. We can know perfection, because we do not have perfect consciousness. We can not achieve perfect conscious throught Jesus or any savior or magic. We approuch perfect consciousness through accumulated knowledge.

The survival of the ego, is so meaningless in contrast to perfect consciousness. To be one with God is to exist without separation, without ego, without self. I don't think many are willing to give up self to be one with God.

Wow, perfect consciousness is so different from the God of Abraham.

[Athena]

arielmessenger ..it takes an ego to create..

Interesting statement. If this is true, it means God must be self aware and have an ego. I am not so sure if this is true, but boy, does the question heighten the level of our discussions.

If we disolve borax in water and incert a pipe cleaner, crytals will form on the pipe cleaner. What force makes this so? I would not say this force is a separate God willing things to happen. I would say things happen because of laws of nature, and I can see this as perfect consciousness, but not as god with self awareness and ego separate from creation, willing what is so. That means creation happens without an ego.

None of the religions advance mathematics and the sciences, therefore, none of them can bring us closer to perfect consciousness. The advances of the west you seem to value, are the result of math, philosophy and science, not religion. A tranquil mind will not recieve this knowledge, as our lungs recieve air. If we desire perfect consciousness we must study math, science and philosophy with the purpose of gaining knowledge. This isn't what religion does for us.

[arielmessenger]

spiritual consciousness allows knowledge in that otherwise takes years to discover, e.g. the re-discovery of the Abraham/Brahma connection that so far, I have yet to see atheists or secularists discover on their own. Why did God direct me to this information? As God did the other myths of origin in the Judaic epic..

Athena, to show you how God does lead even intellectual advancement, I will direct you to the new holistic social evolution theory that is secular because I was unaware at the time that God had tapped me for prophesy duty even though God had already assigned my guiding angel to me, Ariel.

I wrote Climax Civilization in 1977 as Ariel, my God-given name but didn't know it until my religious conversion experience at Easter of 1979.

Climax Social Evolution Theory. There is no other philosophy in the world that can match it for explaining how human societies evolve and how civilizations rise and fall.

Climax Civilization

[Athena]

Quote by: arielmessenger spiritual consciousness allows knowledge in that otherwise takes years to discover, e.g. the re-discovery of the Abraham/Brahma connection that so far, I have yet to see atheists or secularists discover on their own. Why did God direct me to this information? As God did the other myths of origin in the Judaic epic.. Athena, to show you how God does lead even intellectual advancement, I will direct you to the new holistic social evolution theory that is secular because I was unaware at the time that God had tapped me for prophesy duty even though God had already assigned my guiding angel to me, Ariel. I wrote Climax Civilization in 1977 as Ariel, my God-given name but didn't know it until my religious conversion experience at Easter of 1979. Climax Social Evolution Theory. There is no other philosophy in the world that can match it for explaining how human societies evolve and how civilizations rise and fall. Climax Civilization

This thread is about an abstract God that can not be defined, verses a personal God that is defined by religion. Do you have something to say on this subject?

[arielmessenger]

Quote by: Athena This thread is about an abstract God that can not be defined, verses a personal God that is defined by religion. Do you have something to say on this subject?

"None of the religions advance mathematics and the sciences, therefore, none of them can bring us closer to perfect consciousness. The advances of the west you seem to value, are the result of math, philosophy and science, not religion. A tranquil mind will not recieve this knowledge, as our lungs recieve air. If we desire perfect consciousness we must study math, science and philosophy with the purpose of gaining knowledge. This isn't what religion does for us."

So, if I post proof of a religious mind capable of advancing human knowledge, you change the subject trying to pull a moderator power trip. I guess that's one way to debate..

but not mine..well, ok, maybe..

my turn..

Please respond to this thread topic like I did respond to your statement quoted above.

[Athena]

Quote by: arielmessenger "None of the religions advance mathematics and the sciences, therefore, none of them can bring us closer to perfect consciousness. The advances of the west you seem to value, are the result of math, philosophy and science, not religion. A tranquil mind will not recieve this knowledge, as our lungs recieve air. If we desire perfect consciousness we must study math, science and philosophy with the purpose of gaining knowledge. This isn't what religion does for us." So, if I post proof of a religious mind capable of advancing human knowledge, you change the subject trying to pull a moderator power trip. I guess that's one way to debate.. but not mine..well, ok, maybe.. my turn.. Please respond to this thread topic like I did respond to your statement quoted above.

I believe math and science advance our knowledge of God, and expand our consciousness, bringing us closer to perfect consciousness/God, but this is an abstract concept of God, not a personal God we can come to know by studying a holy book.