Abstract verses personal God

[arielmessenger]

Quote by: Athena I believe math and science advance our knowledge of God, and expand our consciousness, bringing us closer to perfect consciousness/God, but this is an abstract concept of God, not a personal God we can come to know by studying a holy book.

And you are very much mistaken if you think I came to believe in God by studying a holy book. I was atheistic, remember? With no use for religion. No way was I going to read the Bible or Quran or whatever and be "born again". Three days of non-stop synchronicity experiences--that's how God got to this former atheist. I could not explain with any science I knew how my world could be so "arranged" as to present these fantastically impossible series of coincidences, all bearing direct relevance to the brand-new to me spiritual insights flooding my mind during those three days of spiritual awakening.

The reason why modern people have such a hard time believing in God is due to the fact that traditional Abrahamic religionists have mis-directed believers to assume they can never have direct spiritual connection with God--it all must be done through the intercession of men and their holy books which is a very false teaching.

My belief in God and the spiritual world are founded on what are called "Signs", synchronicity events, very unusual coincidences that bear special spiritual meaning to the receiver--this is the real way God "talks" to people, only most have been trained not to look for this form of spiritual communication. But once in "synch" with God, it beats blind faith in words of men all to pieces--it's a way of telling that something real is happening when you believe in the spiritual world and God's Plan for our lives.

[arielmessenger]

I have been asked to share my news of seeing and learning about another transcendent reality which I experienced for three days while feverish with one of the unknown bacterial or viral infections that sometimes strike people living in these hills above the redwoods. Before getting into my account I want to quote the following passage taken from the postscript at the end of Martin Buber's "I and Thou" book because I found great similarity to his words with what I experienced:

"One must, however, take care not to understand this conversation with God- the conversation of which I have to speak in this book and in almost all of the works which followed- as something happening solely alongside or above the everyday. God's speech to men penetrates what happens in the life of each one of us, and all that happens in the world around us, biographical and historical, and makes it for you and me into instruction, message, demand. Happening upon happening, situation upon situation, are enabled and empowered by the personal speech of God to demand of the human person that he take his stand and make his decision. Often enough we think there is nothing to hear, but long before we have ourselves put wax in our ears.

The existence of mutuality between God and man cannot be proved, just as God' existence cannot be proved. Yet he who dares to speak of it, bears witness, and calls to witness him to whom he speaks- whether that witness is now or in the future."

Martin Buber
Jerusalem
October, 1957

[christibe]

Quote by: arielmessenger The reason why modern people have such a hard time believing in God is due to the fact that traditional Abrahamic religionists have mis-directed believers to assume they can never have direct spiritual connection with God--it all must be done through the intercession of men and their holy books which is a very false teaching.

I cannot say that I disagree with you, Ariel, but I am not completely sure that if the problem = inability to have relationship with god that the cause = there is a problem with the religions that are available.

First, I do not necessarily see a that there is a problem, if the issue is presented like that.

Second though, I do see there being a great issue with the manner in which people seem to feel a connection with the world/ universe around them. I think it probably began around the time of the Industrial Revolution, where the idea of an 'individual self' came into play, where a person was no longer the product of and the extension of their family and community. I believe, to build from the intention of this thread, that this is where our modern conception of a 'personal god' comes from. In the Western way of thought, which may be the only culture I attempt to speak to here, God exists as the all-knowing creator of everything that may or may not oversee all that we do, and usually forms an opinion thereof. It seems to have never been a question to people of these religions that God might not exist. Because god was in, controlled and gave birth to everything. It wasn't simply a question, so the history has us believe. There wasn't a reason to question it, it just was. Now though, post-Ind. Revolution into our modern age of ultra-technology with super-individuality, we no longer see ourselves as part of a community. Everything is segmented, including our spirituality. We all know that 'we will leave this world as we came into it, alone'. We get to learn about every religion, compare, find things we agree with, philosophize, and all such things that make our modern society wonderful. But, we also feel alone. I think today, that feeling is what we turn to religion with. "I am alone, and there must be some greater purpose to all of this, or else why are we all here?" I don't know.. but I at least have felt that. Plus, Judeo-Christian type religions worked ok for a couple thousand years, as in they were satisfactory in fulfilling many peoples religious needs...

I agree, Athena, that math and science are most definitely key instruments we can use to discover the nature of god. However, our knowledge and ability for comprehension will limit that approach, and how could we ever know that there isn't an area of physics that god exists within that we cannot theorize? (I do agree with Hellenistic thought, it seems)

As far as comparing an abstract god that cannot be defined with religion that defines a personalized god. I think in some cases, as in Christianity, the answer is in the question. It may be cultural differences that have created such varying religions, some people have studied that possibility. I think with Christianity that they needed to personalize Yahweh so that people could find some relevance. Perhaps it wasn't enough to have God, this unimaginable force that is the ultimate. People perhaps needed something real, concrete, to identify with, and along with that came the notion of afterlife. It gave more reason to life, especially in the hard times of the Roman empire.

I'm not really sure, you can call me a follower of any religion and you'd probably be correct... I call myself Taoist usually. Or Christian- Baptist.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that this is a huge question in spirituality. Is God like me, or is God just GOD? It definitely is telling of the comfort one has in trusting their spirituality. I hope more people jump onto this thread.

christina-

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena Interesting statement. If this is true, it means God must be self aware and have an ego. I am not so sure if this is true, but boy, does the question heighten the level of our discussions.

Yes, abstract God even do have infinite ego (feeling of infinite existence through universal consciousness) as you, Athena have finite ego (feeling of finite existence through individual consciousness) !! Abstract God has feeling of existence (ego) in whole of universe as its body while; you have feeling of existence in your whole of body only.

If we disolve borax in water and incert a pipe cleaner, crytals will form on the pipe cleaner. What force makes this so? I would not say this force is a separate God willing things to happen. I would say things happen because of laws of nature, and I can see this as perfect consciousness, but not as god with self-awareness and ego separate from creation, willing what is so. That means creation happens without an ego.

Yes, sub-creation apparently happens without an ego. But those natural laws you refer to are in fact properties of abstract God having ego. The real creation is eternal with no beginning or end and is property of abstract God. For example, our universe is just one property of abstract God, which activate according to set natural laws of universe. One such activity is crystal formation around the pipe of your example. But the fact is that Ego of abstract God is behind this activity as well but in indirect fashion.

None of the religions advance mathematics and the sciences; therefore, none of them can bring us closer to perfect consciousness. The advances of the west you seem to value are the result of math, philosophy and science, not religion. A tranquil mind will not receive this knowledge, as our lungs receive air. If we desire perfect consciousness we must study math, science and philosophy with the purpose of gaining knowledge. This isn't what religion does for us.

Advancements, science, knowledge, math, philosophy…. anything for that matter are tools to understand the properties of nature. Even the understanding is itself the property of human mind !!!! Religions as understanding as well are the properties of abstract God !!!!!

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena It has been awhile since I read this thread, and now even my own thoughts expressed here seem foriegn to me.

This is the condition for "a while gap" in you but people expect to remember after entering the next body after leaving present one at the time of death!! Nature has kept "forgetfulness" with a purpose which is evident either during present life or life after life. The idea is our basic nature likes the change. We do not want to remain in just same situation always. So for that change, one need to forget the current situation hence, nature has kept the property of forgetfullness. Had it not been there, we would keep on mourning for our dear ones for ever, or keep on rejoicing for ever over some good incident like a mad person !!!

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: christibe I cannot say that I disagree with you, Ariel, but I am not completely sure that if the problem = inability to have relationship with god that the cause = there is a problem with the religions that are available.

No, there is no problem of inability to have relationship with god but the problem is with the individual. First, his wish to have such a relation is incomplete. Second, he ignorantly considers himself different than God.

I firmly believe all religions are framed by very dedicated personalities of their times fulfilling first condition. With that firm wish, whatever they felt and conceived, they propagated to their followers. Thus, I am sure, different religions have got ability to make relationship with corresponding personified Gods. It is probably because of persons with dedications of all the religions periodically from time to time witness miracles corresponding to their firm faith and wish to have relation with their personified Gods. So I repeat, I feel there is no problem with the religions that are not able to make relations with the personified Gods, but problem is with individual's capacity, capability and firm desire to make such a relationship.

I may add, those faithless/religion-less firm minded persons would fall in the second category who would merge their consciousness with the universal consciousness. Such persons do not fell they are different than abstract God. Thus, only abstract God exist in nut shell !!!

First, I do not necessarily see a that there is a problem, if the issue is presented like that.

Very correct! Same thing I pointed out above.

Second though, I do see there being a great issue with the manner in which people seem to feel a connection with the world/ universe around them. I think it probably began around the time of the Industrial Revolution, where the idea of an 'individual self' came into play, where a person was no longer the product of and the extension of their family and community. I believe, to build from the intention of this thread, that this is where our modern conception of a 'personal god' comes from. In the Western way of thought, which may be the only culture I attempt to speak to here, God exists as the all-knowing creator of everything that may or may not oversee all that we do, and usually forms an opinion thereof. It seems to have never been a question to people of these religions that God might not exist. Because god was in, controlled and gave birth to everything. It wasn't simply a question, so the history has us believe. There wasn't a reason to question it, it just was. Now though, post-Ind. Revolution into our modern age of ultra-technology with super-individuality, we no longer see ourselves as part of a community. Everything is segmented, including our spirituality. We all know that 'we will leave this world as we came into it, alone'. We get to learn about every religion, compare, find things we agree with, philosophize, and all such things that make our modern society wonderful.

A nice analysis ! But whether pre or post Ind. Revel.; Persons have been intoxicated with faith in God through religion of corresponding culture. Everybody is just casual to have relation with God. Had it been firm, relation would exactly established as laid in person’s belief. God, in fact is abstract and infinite !! So it would accommodates all type of infinite possible faiths.

But, we also feel alone. I think today, that feeling is what we turn to religion with. "I am alone, and there must be some greater purpose to all of this, or else why are we all here?" I don't know.. but I at least have felt that. Plus, Judeo-Christian type religions worked ok for a couple thousand years, as in they were satisfactory in fulfilling many peoples religious needs...

We are here because we like to be here. As said earlier, all types of religions and even religion less firm minds would fulfill their needs, provided their wish is cent percent. This is the property of infinite abstract God !!

I agree, Athena, that math and science are most definitely key instruments we can use to discover the nature of god. However, our knowledge and ability for comprehension will limit that approach, and how could we ever know that there isn't an area of physics that god exists within that we cannot theorize? (I do agree with Hellenistic thought, it seems)

Math, Science are tools to understand the properties of Abstract God but not the God itself !! You can understand your physical body using science but, not your own self ! You are as abstract as God is !!!

As far as comparing an abstract god that cannot be defined with religion that defines a personalized god. I think in some cases, as in Christianity, the answer is in the question. It may be cultural differences that have created such varying religions; some people have studied that possibility. I think with Christianity that they needed to personalize Yahweh so that people could find some relevance. Perhaps it wasn't enough to have God, this unimaginable force that is the ultimate. People perhaps needed something real, concrete, to identify with, and along with that came the notion of afterlife. It gave more reason to life, especially in the hard times of the Roman empire.

Both, abstract and personified Gods are possible, because infinity accommodates everything !!!

I'm not really sure, you can call me a follower of any religion and you'd probably be correct... I call myself Taoist usually. Or Christian- Baptist.

I call you a rational thinker....keep it up !!!

[arielmessenger]

Us. God's Cosmic Plan

Hinduism posits an abstract God as being the highest level of human awareness but this is a false teaching based on projection of the highest goal of both Vedic and Buddhist meditation--destruction of the individual ego by physical brain manipulation shunting electrical energy out of the brain's sense of self center and to the frontal lobes where higher cognition takes place. In other words, it is an illusion that these meditative monks and gurus have achieved believing they've discovered the core of reality.

Common sense should have told them from the beginning that placing any one single brain state in a hierarchal catagory as THEE BEST brain state there is, is foolishness as it takes all sorts of brain states to function, even walk, which is why you see all those statues of Buddha reclining and resting--walking is difficult when one's sense of self center isn't functioning on all cylinders.

As I said before, it takes an ego to create, to go against Nature, to go against prevailing mores, to go against the wind. That is why the screwed-up Westerners lead the world in progressive change and the more Buddhist a country is the more backward it is..

[Kuldeep]

Anybody, who could go beyond physical world and have realization of the reality out there is better judge to decide who is foolish and who is not. To express the eaxct nature of his supernatural experience either he has to return to physical world or listeners have to also to go beyond physical world. The problem is existence of "Self" both in physical and metaphysical state is not possible to coexist at one and the same time. So to call what hindus or budhists realised persons are saying as foolish is not correct in a situation when you or I are only existing in physical state of mind. Remember, coexistence of physical and meta physical is not possible.!!

Rather, it is foolish to bebate metaphysical state of mind with the experience of only physical state of mind.

I may add, even those Angels in whom you have faith are also existing in meta physical state. But, I dare not call their existence as foolish. I can tell from experiece of people from various faiths that only true faith can convert infinite realities out there into all truely believed faiths of physical state of minds of any religion. That is why I consider all faiths as true as long as believed with 100% faith.

[arielmessenger]

then the Voodoo hexer and creator of Zombies is right with God in your eyes , because they BELIEVE 100%? I once wrote a paper for a cultural anthropology class about Voodoo death and related African religions and it's real. There are real witch doctors who can literally point a finger at a tribal member and tell them they will die and they do die.

Kuldeep, until Hindus and Buddhists confront the science showing brain manipulation and not reality observation from meditating monks the whole philosophy of Self/no Self is suspect of being derived solely from physically manipulating the brain's sense of self center. It the same as if you asked a drunk what the world looks like and he say's "Rosy!" In other words, projecting a worldview based on one's state of mind is only asking for trouble because there's no objective reality--only self observation, no outside feedback loop. This is why Hinduism and Buddhism both hindered social advancement because the heart of creative thinking revolving around the ego has been stripped of value in favor of the single brain state, the egoless state of mind. That's where you're getting your philosophy from and I think it's a false picture of reality.

[Kuldeep]

This is why Hinduism and Buddhism both hindered social advancement because the heart of creative thinking revolving around the ego has been stripped of value in favor of the single brain state, the egoless state of mind. That's where you're getting your philosophy from and I think it's a false picture of reality.

I do not know what you mean by social advancement. I would call socially advanced society as one in which people love each other as their ownself, have compassion, patience, affection and feeling etc., in their minds for all around, neighbours in particular. Advancement in this regard is quite good both in Hinduism and Budhism.

You are also not understanding egoless state of mind !!! Egoless state of mind is impossible to exist. There are two types of egos; one individualistic ego because of which you, me and all others seem to exist as separate identities, while; second is universal ego. Universal ego is developed when individualistic ego is removed by yogic practices. With such a state of mind, one turns into a state of mind, having universal feeling and thus feels its existence in whole of universe...this may be called as God's state. Exactly the way, you feel to exist in whole of your body. A person with universal ego feels his existence in whole of universe !!!

You are very correct to say egoless state of mind is not possible to exist. But, you are not correct to say that egoless mind is centered to single brain state ; rather fact is it gets merged with the universal state of mind or consciousness, or whatever you call it. Thus individualistic ego is illusion in reality due to ignorance of duality, while; reality is one universal ego or consciousness...SUPREME REALITY !!!!

[arielmessenger]

Quote by: Kuldeep I do not know what you mean by social advancement. I would call socially advanced society as one in which people love each other as their ownself, have compassion, patience, affection and feeling etc., in their minds for all around, neighbours in particular. Advancement in this regard is quite good both in Hinduism and Budhism. You are also not understanding egoless state of mind !!! Egoless state of mind is impossible to exist. There are two types of egos; one individualistic ego because of which you, me and all others seem to exist as separate identities, while; second is universal ego. Universal ego is developed when individualistic ego is removed by yogic practices. With such a state of mind, one turns into a state of mind, having universal feeling and thus feels its existence in whole of universe...this may be called as God's state. Exactly the way, you feel to exist in whole of your body. A person with universal ego feels his existence in whole of universe !!! You are very correct to say egoless state of mind is not possible to exist. But, you are not correct to say that egoless mind is centered to single brain state ; rather fact is it gets merged with the universal state of mind or consciousness, or whatever you call it. Thus individualistic ego is illusion in reality due to ignorance of duality, while; reality is one universal ego or consciousness...SUPREME REALITY !!!!

India is ranked 109 out of 121 countries in the level of peaceful conditions. Norway is 1st, U.S. 96th. Not a very good record of peace in India and that's confirmed by the periodic outbreaks of violence between Muslims and Hindus.

The reason India lags behind the Western world is precisely due to the glorification of the single-brain state where the brain's sense of self has been removed from functioning by meditative techniques. In short, it is nothing more than a delusion of a brain without a sense of self that projects onto the fabric of reality this false oceanic feeling. There's no question that yogis and Buddhist monks can achieve ego-less states but brain scans of meditating Buddhist monks show conclusively that electrical energy has been shunted out of the brain's sense of self center to go to the forward frontal lobes where higher cognition takes place. Also, if electrical energy is shunted to the right brain frontal cortex where certain pleasure centers are located, meditators will report feelings of bliss with their oceanic identification with all of existence.

It's just Land of the Lotus Eaters all over again. Yogis and Buddhists have just discovered an organic way to get high. It's illusion pure and simple and that's why focusing on this egoless illusion has hampered India's advancement.

[Kuldeep]

I am asking you one simple question: Do you know what is the basic source of that electrical energy or power behind that nuronal impulsive activity you are talking about ???

I am sorry for your ignorance, equating fanatic fightening between two group of societies with in depth science of consciousness of self !!

I am not giving you tough exercise ! Just try to keep your thought same as you speak out (exercise for purification of mind) for a year or so; then see how much intution would come to you automatically !!!

[arielmessenger]

"I am sorry for your ignorance, equating fanatic fightening between two group of societies with in depth science of consciousness of self !!"

That philosophy of yours has been around in India for well over 3000 years and if it had any ability to lift men's minds to superior thoughts, don't you think it would have shown up by now?

Why does India now have to follow the West to keep up if the Hindu philosophy gave any special advantage to Indian thought? Why do you think all those statues in Asia show Buddha lying down or sitting with eyes half closed? This is the image of the mental state from which you derive what you believe to be "higher" consciousness but it isn't. It is no more real than the LSD fantasies of hippies like me during the 1960's. Read Timothy Leary's stuff and see just how cosmic consciousness can be but it's still just a brain state and not really tied to reality except at some molecular level that includes all of being and existence, i.e. too diffuse a consciousness to arrive at any sort of greater knowledge.

Like I say, it does take an ego to buck the status quo and traditions to come up with the new. And egos are stuck in the material world unless they receive help from heaven..

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: arielmessenger Why does India now have to follow the West to keep up if the Hindu philosophy gave any special advantage to Indian thought? Why do you think all those statues in Asia show Buddha lying down or sitting with eyes half closed?

Again you are confusing with material (physical) and spiritual advancement. Is there any relation between physical development with true peace of mind ???

This is the image of the mental state from which you derive what you believe to be "higher" consciousness but it isn't.

Without true attainment of supreme mental state, how can you tell with certainity that IT ISN"T ???

It is no more real than the LSD fantasies of hippies like me during the 1960's. Read Timothy Leary's stuff and see just how cosmic consciousness can be but it's still just a brain state and not really tied to reality except at some molecular level that includes all of being and existence, i.e. too diffuse a consciousness to arrive at any sort of greater knowledge.

LSD fantasies of hippies like me etc, are much much lower state of mind than what I am talking about. In simple words I am telling you, "One loses his sense of individuality and feels his existence in whole of universe and even beyond !!!"

That stage can not be imagined unless one goes into it.

Like I say, it does take an ego to buck the status quo and traditions to come up with the new. And egos are stuck in the material world unless they receive help from heaven..

This part, I very much agree wityh you that to take out your ego from material world is not kid's play. Continual efforts with dogged perseverence is needed !!! Help from heaven is needed if at all one exist out there. To my mind heaven and hell are are always with us. It is up to us where we choose to spend more time; in peace or in unrest !!! It is all mind's play!!!!

[arielmessenger]

brain of what I've been saying. You post this reply

"LSD fantasies of hippies like me etc, are much much lower state of mind than what I am talking about. In simple words I am telling you, "One loses his sense of individuality and feels his existence in whole of universe and even beyond !!!"

That stage can not be imagined unless one goes into it."

as a response to my assertion that brain studies of meditating Buddhist monks show conclusively that meditation towards that very state you too are idolizing as the highest consciousness, is caused by a very simple physiological change in the meditator's brain. The meditator believes he's achieved egoless consciousness but this corresponds one-to-one with the absence of electrical activity happening in the brain's sense of self center in the parietal area. In other words, Hindu yogis and Buddhist monks are literally creating a hole in their heads and saying that in this single brain state where part of the brain is not functioning, that this is the "highest level" of consciousness and the world is nothing more than a Void of Nothingness that the mind fills up with illusory thoughts--we are all One.

Which we are in the end but in the middle we are functioning ego identities who do need a full set of brain states to arrive at holistic consciousness, not "highest consciousness" but the whole set of human mental states that cumulate together in holistic human advancement.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: arielmessenger Which we are in the end but in the middle we are functioning ego identities who do need a full set of brain states to arrive at holistic consciousness, not "highest consciousness" but the whole set of human mental states that cumulate together in holistic human advancement.

Here you are perfectly correct ! I have nothing to add. If somebody wants to wander and feel satisfied within the imperfect state of existence and consciousness, who can compell him to attain the perfect eternal universal highest consciousness !!

[Athena]

Quote by: arielmessenger And you are very much mistaken if you think I came to believe in God by studying a holy book. I was atheistic, remember? With no use for religion. No way was I going to read the Bible or Quran or whatever and be "born again". Three days of non-stop synchronicity experiences--that's how God got to this former atheist. I could not explain with any science I knew how my world could be so "arranged" as to present these fantastically impossible series of coincidences, all bearing direct relevance to the brand-new to me spiritual insights flooding my mind during those three days of spiritual awakening. The reason why modern people have such a hard time believing in God is due to the fact that traditional Abrahamic religionists have mis-directed believers to assume they can never have direct spiritual connection with God--it all must be done through the intercession of men and their holy books which is a very false teaching. My belief in God and the spiritual world are founded on what are called "Signs", synchronicity events, very unusual coincidences that bear special spiritual meaning to the receiver--this is the real way God "talks" to people, only most have been trained not to look for this form of spiritual communication. But once in "synch" with God, it beats blind faith in words of men all to pieces--it's a way of telling that something real is happening when you believe in the spiritual world and God's Plan for our lives.

You may have been atheistic, but if you live in a Christian dominated country, your concept of God will be influenced by Christianity. If you live in India, your concept of God will be influenced by Hinduism. Kuldeep argued against the influence of culture, but even the word "human" has a religious origin. The word comes from the Latin words for moist soil. Our cultures and languages, strongly influence our perception of reality and thoughts about God, if we are athiest or not.

I perfer the way Kuldeep thinks reality and God to the way Christians precieve reality and God. Intuitiion and a point of view that is aware of synchronicity is great. I think it is even better when it goes with an attempt to be scientific and to learn about humans and physical reality. I hope to be volunteering with an organization that rebuilds old computers and sends them to third world countries. I think this is doing the work of God. I think we are in the Resurrection and should all be learning as much as we can from archeologist, geologist and related sciences. It is a consciousness thing.

[Athena]

Quote by: christibe I cannot say that I disagree with you, Ariel, but I am not completely sure that if the problem = inability to have relationship with god that the cause = there is a problem with the religions that are available. First, I do not necessarily see a that there is a problem, if the issue is presented like that. Second though, I do see there being a great issue with the manner in which people seem to feel a connection with the world/ universe around them. I think it probably began around the time of the Industrial Revolution, where the idea of an 'individual self' came into play, where a person was no longer the product of and the extension of their family and community. I believe, to build from the intention of this thread, that this is where our modern conception of a 'personal god' comes from. In the Western way of thought, which may be the only culture I attempt to speak to here, God exists as the all-knowing creator of everything that may or may not oversee all that we do, and usually forms an opinion thereof. It seems to have never been a question to people of these religions that God might not exist. Because god was in, controlled and gave birth to everything. It wasn't simply a question, so the history has us believe. There wasn't a reason to question it, it just was. Now though, post-Ind. Revolution into our modern age of ultra-technology with super-individuality, we no longer see ourselves as part of a community. Everything is segmented, including our spirituality. We all know that 'we will leave this world as we came into it, alone'. We get to learn about every religion, compare, find things we agree with, philosophize, and all such things that make our modern society wonderful. But, we also feel alone. I think today, that feeling is what we turn to religion with. "I am alone, and there must be some greater purpose to all of this, or else why are we all here?" I don't know.. but I at least have felt that. Plus, Judeo-Christian type religions worked ok for a couple thousand years, as in they were satisfactory in fulfilling many peoples religious needs... I agree, Athena, that math and science are most definitely key instruments we can use to discover the nature of god. However, our knowledge and ability for comprehension will limit that approach, and how could we ever know that there isn't an area of physics that god exists within that we cannot theorize? (I do agree with Hellenistic thought, it seems) As far as comparing an abstract god that cannot be defined with religion that defines a personalized god. I think in some cases, as in Christianity, the answer is in the question. It may be cultural differences that have created such varying religions, some people have studied that possibility. I think with Christianity that they needed to personalize Yahweh so that people could find some relevance. Perhaps it wasn't enough to have God, this unimaginable force that is the ultimate. People perhaps needed something real, concrete, to identify with, and along with that came the notion of afterlife. It gave more reason to life, especially in the hard times of the Roman empire. I'm not really sure, you can call me a follower of any religion and you'd probably be correct... I call myself Taoist usually. Or Christian- Baptist. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think that this is a huge question in spirituality. Is God like me, or is God just GOD? It definitely is telling of the comfort one has in trusting their spirituality. I hope more people jump onto this thread. christina-

Christibe, you such a stimulating writer. I can not repond to all the thoughts you stimulate in my head without writing a book. :) I will pick one thought at a time.

I see the first separation of God and man, coming from the separation created by Jews and Christians. In Egyptian theology, there is a trinity of soul. We are that trinity of soul. When we die, the physical part dies. The remaining soul is judged by Isis and either enters the good after life or does not, and regardless of judgement, a part of our trinity returns to the original cosmic source. Thus, we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

This is in contrast to the Christian trinity if God, son and holy ghost. With this trinity, all that is spiritual and holy is outside of self. Thus you get humans separate from spiritual reality, living under God's authority and the few individuals who represent God's authority on earth.

In anceint times, God was wise and compassionate, but when Christianity reaches Germany, God becomes autocratic and there is greater focus on the punishment and fear of not being accepted by God. This is a huge change in the preception of God, and part of why Protestants and Catholics are divided.

[Athena]

Quote by: arielmessenger Which we are in the end but in the middle we are functioning ego identities who do need a full set of brain states to arrive at holistic consciousness, not "highest consciousness" but the whole set of human mental states that cumulate together in holistic human advancement.

Ouote by Kuldeep Here you are perfectly correct ! I have nothing to add. If somebody wants to wander and feel satisfied within the imperfect state of existence and consciousness, who can compell him to attain the perfect eternal universal highest consciousness !!

And what I am saying about thinking scientifically is different from what both of you said, how? When we advance in science to quantum physics, the connections with Eastern philosophy stand out. This is studying God, verses reading a holy book to understand God.

[arielmessenger]

Quote by: Athena And what I am saying about thinking scientifically is different from what both of you said, how? When we advance in science to quantum physics, the connections with Eastern philosophy stand out. This is studying God, verses reading a holy book to understand God.

that has not be derived from reading Eastern holy books. What you post above doesn't make sense.