Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

iahag · Oct 30, 2006, 06:07 pm

To get the ball rolling, are all miscarriages condemned to hell?

Rainbow · Oct 30, 2006, 08:46 pm

No.
I go to Heaven :-)

Kuldeep · Oct 31, 2006, 05:17 am

I do not believe in any different hell or heaven than this world. At any point of time when our mind is satisfied we ae inHeaven but when it is niot we are in Hell. This is irrespective of age!!!

iahag · Oct 31, 2006, 05:48 am

Ha, noone has the cahones to answer my original question. Come now people, dont be shy, this is your faith were talking about.

Fonceai · Oct 31, 2006, 05:54 am

@iahag

You realize that your topic and your question in the OP are two different things.

To answer your OP, no, I don't believe miscarriages go to hell.

iahag · Oct 31, 2006, 06:05 am

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

@iahag

You realize that your topic and your question in the OP are two different things.

To answer your OP, no, I don't believe miscarriages go to hell.

Very well, with regards to age then... Provided they have not been 'enlightened' or 'saved', which of us mortals goes to heaven, and who goes to hell? Where does one draw the line on such a sensitive issue?

danoz · Oct 31, 2006, 06:12 am

I dont think that unborn children would be condemmed to hell, according to my knowledge of religion children are born into sin and without being baptised, will go to hell. But if a child isnt actually born then i dont think that would be the case.

xJesterx · Oct 31, 2006, 06:18 am

Even unbaptised children, according to christianity, don't go to hell. Heaven and hell only become issues when the person has reached an age where they can decide for themselves which religion or anti-religion they want to follow. Anything before that point is irrelevant as it's considered the parents decision, not the childs.

danoz · Oct 31, 2006, 06:22 am

Do unborn children actually go to heaven? I think that should be the actual topic of conversation at the moment. How would something like that work?

xJesterx · Oct 31, 2006, 06:33 am

According to religion, as soon as a human being is created it is given a soul. Therefore yes their soul would go to heaven.

samsara15 · Oct 31, 2006, 01:58 pm

If an unborn baby can't go to Hell,, aren't we committing a crime by letting them be born, since they were risk free before we allowed them to be born? Dosn't that make abortion a duty? In the case of a miscarriage, no one ever had a choice.

Fonceai · Oct 31, 2006, 04:01 pm

The Vatican II, for Catholicism, changed the "policy" on children going to Hell and Limbo. They basically said that because they never passed through their mother they will go to Heaven. I think. I'm not exactly sure.

another day · Oct 31, 2006, 05:20 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

The Vatican II, for Catholicism, changed the "policy" on children going to Hell and Limbo. They basically said that because they never passed through their mother they will go to Heaven. I think. I'm not exactly sure.

HAhaha...changed their policy. What a laugh catholicism is.

OratorDeVeritas · Oct 31, 2006, 05:22 pm

They never had the chance to accept Jesus, therefore they go to heaven. Same with mentally handicapped people, if they are to handicapped to decide, then they go to heaven. God is a just God and would not eternally condemn someone if they never had a chance to be saved.

iahag · Oct 31, 2006, 05:48 pm

So surely you would want all babies to die before even being born. I mean, no chance of a ETERNITY of hell is better than a chance at all right? (In perspective... Well, you cant put that in perspective. Its an 'infinite' amount of time of suffering that which is unimaginably horrible). Oh right, but that makes you a murderer... But what about all the other christian murderers in history? I thought there was a way around this? I postulate that christians either: dont actually literally believe in hell or do not think that an eternity of hell is so bad or fully believe that an eternity of unimaginable pain is a suitable punishment for not being 'enlightened' during ones lifetime.

When I really start to think about it, I dont know why you dont encourage the human species to die out. I mean, the odds are against you, if your ultimate goal is to help people avoid being sent to hell, then your failing massively. You only manage to convince 33% of the worlds people. So the majority are having to suffer an eternity of pain, and this can be ended with the end of the human race. Heh, no wonder you people talk about the end of days so much.

xJesterx · Oct 31, 2006, 07:23 pm

Abortion is against religion because it's taking a human life. While it's nice to say that they'll automatically go to heaven if you kill them - it's not your right (spiritually) to decide whether they have a chance at life or not. You are taking away their decision and their impact on the world.

You don't go around killing priest and 8 year olds because they'll automatically go to heaven so it's therefore better to kill them off. Same logic - an unborn child is regarded in christianity as having the same rights as a human being.

iahag · Oct 31, 2006, 10:44 pm

So what your really saying is that, you consider allowing a newborn the chance to live/be enlightened is there right. Yet, despite this, they have a 66% chance of spending there after-life in eternal suffering. So what youve effectively done is justified the injustifiable (with regards to time and unimaginable pain) by explicitly saying that this 66% chance of eternal damnation is less significant/important (in the grand scheme of things, whatever that is) than the right to live. (Life being, presumably a mere infinitely small chapter in ones existence).

xJesterx · Oct 31, 2006, 11:00 pm

Well it basically goes to free will. We have the free will to do everything - it's our primary right to choose our path and our destination. To deprive someone of that right is wrong. So yes it is more important that your destination is one you chose rather than one that is chosen for you. It may be 66% choose the path which leads to eternal suffering - but it is their choice. Just like a murderer (one with the ability to judge) chooses to murder and then has to face the consequence of being someones bitch in prison. They chose their path, they chose their destination.

But that's not the only reason. Everyone has a role to play in the world no matter how small and their impact on this world, by aborting them, is taken away. So the results of their actions don't happen. Although they would have to potential to impact negatively - everyone also impacts positively. So it's not just that individuals life that is affected but the people around them and sometimes society as a whole.

OratorDeVeritas · Nov 1, 2006, 02:53 pm

"When I really start to think about it, I dont know why you dont encourage the human species to die out. I mean, the odds are against you, if your ultimate goal is to help people avoid being sent to hell, then your failing massively. You only manage to convince 33% of the worlds people. So the majority are having to suffer an eternity of pain, and this can be ended with the end of the human race. Heh, no wonder you people talk about the end of days so much."

Encourage the human species to die out?! God knows when the perfect time for His coming is, and no matter what we do, He will not come back until the perfect time. Failing massively? God can't fail, it is impossible. Personally, I think 1/3 is pretty awesome, that is a lot of people who get to live an eternal life with the Creator of the universe, and the One who loves everyone, even those who hate him, more than anyone else will ever love them.

Gabe2007 · Dec 29, 2006, 08:38 pm

Quote:

Quote by: samsara15

If an unborn baby can't go to Hell,, aren't we committing a crime by letting them be born, since they were risk free before we allowed them to be born? Dosn't that make abortion a duty? In the case of a miscarriage, no one ever had a choice.

that is one of the most disgusting statements ive ever heard a peron say?? how is abortion a duty? what the hell is wrong with you?
abortion is NOT a duty, as you call it! abortion is, in simple term, Infanticide! if its not you tell me.
so how can you say depriving someone of life is a duty?

if you a baby has died from a miscarriage, they go to heaven.
if a baby is killed before they reach a certain age of realization, they go to heaven.
its that simple.

if a person has passed that age, which differs for everybody, then it is their decision if they want to go to heaven or not..

yes, God is just...that's why all the children, if you read the verse, "shall inherit the Kingdom of God"

Oct 30, 2006, 06:07 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
iahag Skeptic of Skeptics Location: Bristol/Plymouth Posts: 219	So theologians... With regards to age, Is everyone condemned to hell? To get the ball rolling, are all miscarriages condemned to hell? The more painless an exercise, the more likely you are of doing it. The more painful an exercise, the more likely you are of learning from it.

Oct 31, 2006, 05:17 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Kuldeep Kuldeep Location: Bhopa, M.P, India Posts: 1,640	which Hell or Heaven? I do not believe in any different hell or heaven than this world. At any point of time when our mind is satisfied we ae inHeaven but when it is niot we are in Hell. This is irrespective of age!!!

Oct 31, 2006, 05:48 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
iahag Skeptic of Skeptics Location: Bristol/Plymouth Posts: 219	Ha, noone has the cahones to answer my original question. Come now people, dont be shy, this is your faith were talking about. The more painless an exercise, the more likely you are of doing it. The more painful an exercise, the more likely you are of learning from it.

Oct 31, 2006, 06:18 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
xJesterx WeLcOmE tO mY wOrLd Location: Australia Posts: 30	Even unbaptised children, according to christianity, don't go to hell. Heaven and hell only become issues when the person has reached an age where they can decide for themselves which religion or anti-religion they want to follow. Anything before that point is irrelevant as it's considered the parents decision, not the childs. ~communication is the problem to the answer~

Oct 31, 2006, 06:33 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
xJesterx WeLcOmE tO mY wOrLd Location: Australia Posts: 30	According to religion, as soon as a human being is created it is given a soul. Therefore yes their soul would go to heaven. ~communication is the problem to the answer~

Oct 30, 2006, 08:46 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Rainbow Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,066	No. I go to Heaven :-)

Oct 31, 2006, 05:54 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	@iahag You realize that your topic and your question in the OP are two different things. To answer your OP, no, I don't believe miscarriages go to hell.

Oct 31, 2006, 06:12 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
danoz Sedimentary Rock Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 5	I dont think that unborn children would be condemmed to hell, according to my knowledge of religion children are born into sin and without being baptised, will go to hell. But if a child isnt actually born then i dont think that would be the case.

Oct 31, 2006, 06:22 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
danoz Sedimentary Rock Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 5	Do unborn children actually go to heaven? I think that should be the actual topic of conversation at the moment. How would something like that work?

Oct 31, 2006, 01:58 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
samsara15 Ch Latour 61 Location: Maryland Posts: 638	If an unborn baby can't go to Hell,, aren't we committing a crime by letting them be born, since they were risk free before we allowed them to be born? Dosn't that make abortion a duty? In the case of a miscarriage, no one ever had a choice. Economic Left/Right -8.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian –6.97

Oct 31, 2006, 04:01 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	The Vatican II, for Catholicism, changed the "policy" on children going to Hell and Limbo. They basically said that because they never passed through their mother they will go to Heaven. I think. I'm not exactly sure.

Oct 31, 2006, 05:22 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
OratorDeVeritas Christian Location: South Carolina, USA Posts: 19	They never had the chance to accept Jesus, therefore they go to heaven. Same with mentally handicapped people, if they are to handicapped to decide, then they go to heaven. God is a just God and would not eternally condemn someone if they never had a chance to be saved. I have been driven to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had no where else to go.

Oct 31, 2006, 05:48 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
iahag Skeptic of Skeptics Location: Bristol/Plymouth Posts: 219	So surely you would want all babies to die before even being born. I mean, no chance of a ETERNITY of hell is better than a chance at all right? (In perspective... Well, you cant put that in perspective. Its an 'infinite' amount of time of suffering that which is unimaginably horrible). Oh right, but that makes you a murderer... But what about all the other christian murderers in history? I thought there was a way around this? I postulate that christians either: dont actually literally believe in hell or do not think that an eternity of hell is so bad or fully believe that an eternity of unimaginable pain is a suitable punishment for not being 'enlightened' during ones lifetime. When I really start to think about it, I dont know why you dont encourage the human species to die out. I mean, the odds are against you, if your ultimate goal is to help people avoid being sent to hell, then your failing massively. You only manage to convince 33% of the worlds people. So the majority are having to suffer an eternity of pain, and this can be ended with the end of the human race. Heh, no wonder you people talk about the end of days so much. The more painless an exercise, the more likely you are of doing it. The more painful an exercise, the more likely you are of learning from it. Last edited by iahag; Oct 31, 2006 at 06:19 pm.

Oct 31, 2006, 07:23 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
xJesterx WeLcOmE tO mY wOrLd Location: Australia Posts: 30	Abortion is against religion because it's taking a human life. While it's nice to say that they'll automatically go to heaven if you kill them - it's not your right (spiritually) to decide whether they have a chance at life or not. You are taking away their decision and their impact on the world. You don't go around killing priest and 8 year olds because they'll automatically go to heaven so it's therefore better to kill them off. Same logic - an unborn child is regarded in christianity as having the same rights as a human being. ~communication is the problem to the answer~

Oct 31, 2006, 10:44 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
iahag Skeptic of Skeptics Location: Bristol/Plymouth Posts: 219	So what your really saying is that, you consider allowing a newborn the chance to live/be enlightened is there right. Yet, despite this, they have a 66% chance of spending there after-life in eternal suffering. So what youve effectively done is justified the injustifiable (with regards to time and unimaginable pain) by explicitly saying that this 66% chance of eternal damnation is less significant/important (in the grand scheme of things, whatever that is) than the right to live. (Life being, presumably a mere infinitely small chapter in ones existence). The more painless an exercise, the more likely you are of doing it. The more painful an exercise, the more likely you are of learning from it.

Oct 31, 2006, 11:00 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
xJesterx WeLcOmE tO mY wOrLd Location: Australia Posts: 30	Well it basically goes to free will. We have the free will to do everything - it's our primary right to choose our path and our destination. To deprive someone of that right is wrong. So yes it is more important that your destination is one you chose rather than one that is chosen for you. It may be 66% choose the path which leads to eternal suffering - but it is their choice. Just like a murderer (one with the ability to judge) chooses to murder and then has to face the consequence of being someones bitch in prison. They chose their path, they chose their destination. But that's not the only reason. Everyone has a role to play in the world no matter how small and their impact on this world, by aborting them, is taken away. So the results of their actions don't happen. Although they would have to potential to impact negatively - everyone also impacts positively. So it's not just that individuals life that is affected but the people around them and sometimes society as a whole. ~communication is the problem to the answer~

Nov 1, 2006, 02:53 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
OratorDeVeritas Christian Location: South Carolina, USA Posts: 19	"When I really start to think about it, I dont know why you dont encourage the human species to die out. I mean, the odds are against you, if your ultimate goal is to help people avoid being sent to hell, then your failing massively. You only manage to convince 33% of the worlds people. So the majority are having to suffer an eternity of pain, and this can be ended with the end of the human race. Heh, no wonder you people talk about the end of days so much." Encourage the human species to die out?! God knows when the perfect time for His coming is, and no matter what we do, He will not come back until the perfect time. Failing massively? God can't fail, it is impossible. Personally, I think 1/3 is pretty awesome, that is a lot of people who get to live an eternal life with the Creator of the universe, and the One who loves everyone, even those who hate him, more than anyone else will ever love them. I have been driven to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had no where else to go.