So theologians... With regards to age, Is everyone condemned to hell?

[KillerArgument]

Quote by: Praxius But talk of abortion never really took off until the last couple of centuries. Back when the bible was still being kicked around and fixed up, and when Jesus shot hoops in his backyard, there wasn't much talk about the unborn and what they have coming their way. It was mostly those who revised the bibles, and new-age priests and popes who deemed it wrong, not god. Once again, there's still the problem as to what is considered a life prior to being born, so until you can officially say a fetus is a life, prior to being born, determining weither or not they goto hell or heaven is irrelevant. One step at a time, lol. Well it's good you think that way.... thanks. Hopefully my living my life the way I see fit, will produce a hell far better then your heaven..... then perhaps Lucifer will appoint me as leader of his hell army and when we come and invade heaven and kill you all off, we'll have two Hells, and more room to play. "pitting a hypothetical against an actual?" Tell me what exactly is Actual here? Everything sounds hypothetical to me.

Abortion was practiced in Bible times, and when Jesus was born all young male children were killed systematically.

The "actual" is that all people who are born--are born.

A fetus is "officially a life"--his or her heart is beating.

God made you and can make a Heaven far better than anything the mind He put into you can imagine.

Nobody is ruling in Hell--even Satan will be suffering. He will be suffering by far the most.

[Praxius]

Quote by: KillerArgument A fetus is "officially a life"--his or her heart is beating.

Heart beating, perhaps.... but nutrition, blood flow, and everything else is supported and run by the mother's body. Until the cord is cut and the baby is breathing on it's own, do I myself, consider it alive.

Take someone who is in a comma and can only survive by a life support system..... their heart is beating as well.... but what kind of life are they living? Who is to say it is wrong to keep their life prolonged if they can not support their own life in a natural manner? The same would apply to a fetus.

God made you and can make a Heaven far better than anything the mind He put into you can imagine.

Ah... but you see.... God didn't do anything for me..... nor did he make anything for me..... he might have for you, but not me. My parents made me, my mother gave birth to me, I survived the birth, my parents and my family around me raised me and the world around me educated me into the person I am today.

I personally don't remember God anywhere in my life, except in church when people talked about him. My imagination was created by myself and how I interacted with the world around me. I wasn't born with the imagination I have now, I grew into it over time...... and trust me, my imagination is quite vast, lol.

Nobody is ruling in Hell--even Satan will be suffering. He will be suffering by far the most.

History is written by the victors.

[KillerArgument]

Quote by: Praxius Heart beating, perhaps.... but nutrition, blood flow, and everything else is supported and run by the mother's body. Until the cord is cut and the baby is breathing on it's own, do I myself, consider it alive. Take someone who is in a comma and can only survive by a life support system..... their heart is beating as well.... but what kind of life are they living? Who is to say it is wrong to keep their life prolonged if they can not support their own life in a natural manner? The same would apply to a fetus. Ah... but you see.... God didn't do anything for me..... nor did he make anything for me..... he might have for you, but not me. My parents made me, my mother gave birth to me, I survived the birth, my parents and my family around me raised me and the world around me educated me into the person I am today. I personally don't remember God anywhere in my life, except in church when people talked about him. My imagination was created by myself and how I interacted with the world around me. I wasn't born with the imagination I have now, I grew into it over time...... and trust me, my imagination is quite vast, lol. History is written by the victors.

So if someone sliced open your pregnant wife with a Bowie knife, and cut off the head of your baby, but your wife survived, he could not be said to have killed anything, then? No charges of murder should be advanced?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dthmstr254 There are actually three ways this could go: A. Born: Person chooses the wrong path. Goes to hell. B. Born: Person chooses the right path, and takes another group of people with him to heaven.

Don't be foolish, dthmstr254. Atheists can deconvert many people as well.

Quote by: dthmstr254 C. Child aborted: Take the 66% chance that the people that person could have led to heaven will be led to heaven by another. And also take the 22% chance that the person would not have surrendered to the mission field and gone to a group of people that noone else would have reached.

What the hell are you talking about? You can't just pull statistics out of your ass without citing them.

Quote by: dthmstr254 If the value of one person's salvation is enough to make the angels have a heaven-wide party, how much would all of those people the abortee wouldn't reach be worth?

The non-aborted human could deconvert Christians as well. Even start an Atheist family.

All your doing is spawning more and more people that will be tortured forever and ever by your sick god.

Face it, your religion has a loophole (out of sooo many) in which it's infinitely better in a utilitarian sense to kill all babies.

And KillerArgument.. I'm still waiting for your response in our 1vs1 debate.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Don't be foolish, dthmstr254. Atheists can deconvert many people as well.

That doesn't matter. By the Bible, once on the road to heaven, not even you can get yourself off it.

What the hell are you talking about? You can't just pull statistics out of your ass without citing them.

Estimated from the 66% posted earlier in the thread. 22% is probably high. Take it down to 11%.

33%*33%=11%

The non-aborted human could deconvert Christians as well. Even start an Atheist family. All your doing is spawning more and more people that will be tortured forever and ever by your sick god. Face it, your religion has a loophole (out of sooo many) in which it's infinitely better in a utilitarian sense to kill all babies. And KillerArgument.. I'm still waiting for your response in our 1vs1 debate.

tortured by THEIR choice. However, if you look at it, if we did that, soon all Christians would die out and none of the humans after would go to heaven.

Hell is a place created to keep sin from the presence of God. Without hell the choice would be heaven or obliteration from the timeline. Take your pick. Hell was created out of necessity, because sin is destroyed in God's presence. Getting sin to come in the face of God is like getting the positive end of one magnet to connect with the positive end of another. Completely impossible.

[Praxius]

Quote by: KillerArgument So if someone sliced open your pregnant wife with a Bowie knife, and cut off the head of your baby, but your wife survived, he could not be said to have killed anything, then? No charges of murder should be advanced?

WTF kind of logic is that? I'd have more concern over my wife/girlfriend's well being then the unborn baby's..... and that someone would have their knife shoved into their skull. If they were caught, they would have plenty of charges coming their way as it is, besides your baby murder idea, to keep them in jail for a long time.

That's a stupid hypothetical situation and doesn't prove any point. As I said in the past, I have more concern to those already living their lives, then those who have yet to live one. I would choose the life of my wife/girlfriend over an unborn baby's any day.

Sorry, did that screw up your logical defense?

(Seems from your hypothetical situation that you're more morbid then those who are for abortions.)

[Praxius]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Getting sin to come in the face of God is like getting the positive end of one magnet to connect with the positive end of another. Completely impossible.

Uh..... I've gotten two magnets together before with the same polarities.... it's not impossible.... they just won't stay.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dthmstr254 That doesn't matter. By the Bible, once on the road to heaven, not even you can get yourself off it.

Biblically support this, please & thank you.

Quote by: dthmstr254 Estimated from the 66% posted earlier in the thread. 22% is probably high. Take it down to 11%. 33%*33%=11%

You're still being very vague. Please just explain what the hell you're trying to say.

Quote by: dthmstr254 tortured by THEIR choice.

When you die and go to FSM Hell, it'll be YOUR choice cause EVERYONE knows of the existence of the FSM, right?

Quote by: dthmstr254 However, if you look at it, if we did that, soon all Christians would die out and none of the humans after would go to heaven.

No, population would simply dwindle.

Quote by: dthmstr254 Hell is a place created to keep sin from the presence of God.

But you later said sin is destroyed in God's presence. You make zero sense. :(

Quote by: dthmstr254 Without hell the choice would be heaven or obliteration from the timeline. Take your pick.

Um, obliteration from the timeline. Your point being?

Quote by: dthmstr254 Hell was created out of necessity

Torture is never a necessity when a all-powerful god is in control.

Quote by: dthmstr254 because sin is destroyed in God's presence.

Then we should all be able to live in Heaven. Hell isn't necessary.

Quote by: dthmstr254 Getting sin to come in the face of God is like getting the positive end of one magnet to connect with the positive end of another. Completely impossible.

No, you said sin is destroyed in God's presence. Magnets aren't destroyed when opposite ends touch.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Biblically support this, please & thank you.

Just a small part of it will support it. Listing all of them would make the post too long:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).
When the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:4-7).

You're still being very vague. Please just explain what the hell you're trying to say.

Someone earlier in the board posted that 66% of people go to hell. That means 33% go to heaven. of the one third that are saved, only a third of the people they reach will believe. That comes to about 11% chance that you are damning people to hell by aborting a child. BIMI reports that about 15% of professing Christians are going to the mission field, which means about 5% chance that you are damning an even larger group of people, possibly even an entire nation or civilisation to hell by aborting that child.

When you die and go to FSM Hell, it'll be YOUR choice cause EVERYONE knows of the existence of the FSM, right?

Your turn. This is too vague. WHat is FSM?

No, population would simply dwindle.

And as it dwindled, it would all be Christians, meaning that Christians would dissappear.

But you later said sin is destroyed in God's presence. You make zero sense. :(

Hell is seperated from God's presence. It is not in or on the earth. It is not in the universe. It is, technically, outside of spacial dimensions.

Um, obliteration from the timeline. Your point being?

A) you exist
B) you sin
C) you get obliterated from the timeline
D) you don't exist
E) you don't sin
F) you don't get obliterated from the timeline
G) Start back at A.

Get the point. It is impossible. If it weren't for hell, the world would fall apart.

Torture is never a necessity when a all-powerful god is in control.

Not a necessity, but a vicissitude of life. Pain is a result of our sin, by our activating the potentiality of evil that is the side effect of our free will. So, you want a choice, or you want to just go to heaven because you have no choice in the matter?

Then we should all be able to live in Heaven. Hell isn't necessary.

It is necessary to keep the world together because of our sin.

No, you said sin is destroyed in God's presence. Magnets aren't destroyed when opposite ends touch.

Recognize a figure of speech when you see one?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Praxius Uh..... I've gotten two magnets together before with the same polarities.... it's not impossible.... they just won't stay.

Did they attract eachother and CONNECT magnetically?

[KillerArgument]

Quote by: Praxius WTF kind of logic is that? I'd have more concern over my wife/girlfriend's well being then the unborn baby's..... and that someone would have their knife shoved into their skull. If they were caught, they would have plenty of charges coming their way as it is, besides your baby murder idea, to keep them in jail for a long time. That's a stupid hypothetical situation and doesn't prove any point. As I said in the past, I have more concern to those already living their lives, then those who have yet to live one. I would choose the life of my wife/girlfriend over an unborn baby's any day. Sorry, did that screw up your logical defense? (Seems from your hypothetical situation that you're more morbid then those who are for abortions.)

Please spare me your emotional reaction and respond with reason.

No, it didn't mess up my logical defense--you didn't address the moral issue.

Once again:

In beheading your infant son, who by your definition is not alive, was there any crime done?

I doubt that positing a gruesome hypothetical scenario qualifies me for more moral guilt than for those who commit the monstrous evil of murdering their own unborn sons and daughters.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Just a small part of it will support it. Listing all of them would make the post too long: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). When the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:4-7).

I'm not convinced. And by admitting that, you've opened a whole nuther set of problems.

For instance. I technically would be going to Heaven even though I'm an Atheist and even if I were to rape, torture, and molest children.. (which actually may be well justified in the Bible) I would still be going to Heaven because I was lucky enough to be brainwashed at a young age in which we are genetically coded to believe everything our parents tell us.

Now, what makes me so much more lucky than someone who happened to be brainwashed by another religion elsewhere and deconverted to Atheism? So much so that I get Heaven and he gets Hell?

That is repulsive and utterly sickening on all levels. You had better explain this one to me, cause you've really confused me.

Quote by: dthmstr254 Someone earlier in the board posted that 66% of people go to hell. That means 33% go to heaven. of the one third that are saved, only a third of the people they reach will believe. That comes to about 11% chance that you are damning people to hell by aborting a child. BIMI reports that about 15% of professing Christians are going to the mission field, which means about 5% chance that you are damning an even larger group of people, possibly even an entire nation or civilisation to hell by aborting that child.

I believe your above claim screws with your statistics, now doesn't it?

Quote by: dthmstr254 Your turn. This is too vague. WHat is FSM?

The Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's a satirical religion.

Quote by: dthmstr254 And as it dwindled, it would all be Christians, meaning that Christians would dissappear.

Sounds good to me. :]

But.. you just said it would be all Christians? How? What do you mean?

Quote by: dthmstr254 Hell is seperated from God's presence. It is not in or on the earth. It is not in the universe. It is, technically, outside of spacial dimensions.

So?

Quote by: dthmstr254 A) you exist B) you sin C) you get obliterated from the timeline D) you don't exist E) you don't sin F) you don't get obliterated from the timeline G) Start back at A. Get the point. It is impossible. If it weren't for hell, the world would fall apart.

There's no Hell and I think the world is doing OK.

There's also no need for a Hell, and you've yet to explain why the existence of the world depends on a place that a small minority of people believe in that supposedly tortures people forever. You aren't making any sense.

What is your timeline above proving?

Quote by: dthmstr254 Not a necessity, but a vicissitude of life. Pain is a result of our sin, by our activating the potentiality of evil that is the side effect of our free will. So, you want a choice, or you want to just go to heaven because you have no choice in the matter?

Do we sin in Heaven?

Do we have free will in Heaven?

Quote by: dthmstr254 Recognize a figure of speech when you see one?

It's a horrible figure of speech that disproves your point. I made note of that, so just get over it or think of a better figure of speech. Want me to think of a valid one for you?

[KillerArgument]

Super-simple: all people are sinners headed for Hell at death to receive from God the punishment of justice for their sins.

Those who believe in Jesus, because He took our punishment for us on the cross, will be forgiven, receive eternal life, receive God's Holy Spirit, and go to Heaven the minute they die. That's the Gospel, the Good News. God did not HAVE to do this for anyone--that's why it's called "Grace.".

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'm not convinced. And by admitting that, you've opened a whole other set of problems. For instance. I technically would be going to Heaven even though I'm an Atheist and even if I were to rape, torture, and molest children.. (which actually may be well justified in the Bible) I would still be going to Heaven because I was lucky enough to be brainwashed at a young age in which we are genetically coded to believe everything our parents tell us. Now, what makes me so much more lucky than someone who happened to be brainwashed by another religion elsewhere and deconverted to Atheism? So much so that I get Heaven and he gets Hell? That is repulsive and utterly sickening on all levels. You had better explain this one to me, cause you've really confused me.

However, if it were the other way around with karma and works, the person who made a genuine change late in life, after a life of felony activity, would never be able to make it to heaven because he doesn't have time. That is also utterly sick and repulsive. Anywho, God says that he will, at a point, evict a person from life before letting sin destroy the person's soul. That, on the other hand, is something called mercy that is beyond all understanding.

One of the things that you forget is that anyone who is willing to give up what God had in heaven, take on mortal being, die, and take on the sins and sufferings of every person on the earth must be crazy about humans. That means that not only did he take on the sufferings of the cross, he experienced what it is to be deaf, blind, parapalegic, and (from an old thread on this site) the kid who can't move a limb without feeling pain, can't control his bladders or bowels, and has paralyzing migraines. He experienced on the cross, what it is to lose a loved one. You name the suffering, he took it on Himself on the cross. If you can find me a god that tops that kind of love, you got something. As it is, it takes unending love to do that.

I believe your above claim screws with your statistics, now doesn't it?

It's called estimation. And taking estimates is something done in gambling situations all the time. Abortion is a gamble, and those aqre the stakes.

Sounds good to me. :] But.. you just said it would be all Christians? How? What do you mean?

If we start killing all babies, because of Christian reasons, then it would be mostly Christians doing so. In 70 years, the last generations of Christians would die off.

So? There's no Hell and I think the world is doing OK. There's also no need for a Hell, and you've yet to explain why the existence of the world depends on a place that a small minority of people believe in that supposedly tortures people forever. You aren't making any sense.

Because the chaff (Sin and all connected with it, including the sinners) must be seperated from the wheat (the souls of saved people).

What is your timeline above proving?

Temporal Mechanics (what is possible if time travel were possible) would claim a circle. A Temporal Circle tears at the timeline, because it is an anomaly in the timeline that must be fixed.

Do we sin in Heaven? Do we have free will in Heaven?

When we get to heaven, we have made our choice. We have chosen holiness. This corruption will "Put on incorruption."

It's a horrible figure of speech that disproves your point. I made note of that, so just get over it or think of a better figure of speech. Want me to think of a valid one for you?

Ok, so I made a single aesthetic mistake, and you bite on to try and get me off topic? Not everyone is perfect

[Praxius]

Quote by: KillerArgument Please spare me your emotional reaction and respond with reason. No, it didn't mess up my logical defense--you didn't address the moral issue. Once again: In beheading your infant son, who by your definition is not alive, was there any crime done?

I did answer your question and if you missed it:

If they were caught, they would have plenty of charges coming their way as it is, besides your baby murder idea, to keep them in jail for a long time.

Your logic is flawed in my reasoning because if we decided to have an abortion that's one thing..... that's our decision alone weither or not we want to bring a life into this world or not. It's another thing if you came along and made the decision for us, much like how you are telling me that I shouldn't... much like if you came along and attempted your hypothetical situation.

Hence why I don't think your situation is a valid defense for your opinion. As I said, I have more vale over my wife's life then that of the unborn fetus.

I can't elaborate anymore then that... because that's the only answer I have for your question.

Would a crime be committed? Yes. Would it be the crime you are seeking? No.

I doubt that positing a gruesome hypothetical scenario qualifies me for more moral guilt than for those who commit the monstrous evil of murdering their own unborn sons and daughters.

Hence why I think your reasoning for the value of human life is flawed. You brought in a hypothetical situation where you would have caused harm to both my wife/girlfriend and the unborn fetus..... you selected me to decide my opinions on what was done to the fetus, without regard to the wife/girlfriend, where in my opinion, is far more important.

I have a greater chance of having another child, then I would finding a replacement for my wife/girlfriend.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: dthmstr254 However, if it were the other way around with karma and works, the person who made a genuine change late in life, after a life of felony activity, would never be able to make it to heaven because he doesn't have time. That is also utterly sick and repulsive. Anywho, God says that he will, at a point, evict a person from life before letting sin destroy the person's soul. That, on the other hand, is something called mercy that is beyond all understanding.

Mercy is not beyond all understanding. The mercy of God you've described isn't even that amazing.

Quote by: dthmstr254 One of the things that you forget is that anyone who is willing to give up what God had in heaven, take on mortal being, die, and take on the sins and sufferings of every person on the earth must be crazy about humans. That means that not only did he take on the sufferings of the cross, he experienced what it is to be deaf, blind, parapalegic, and (from an old thread on this site) the kid who can't move a limb without feeling pain, can't control his bladders or bowels, and has paralyzing migraines. He experienced on the cross, what it is to lose a loved one. You name the suffering, he took it on Himself on the cross. If you can find me a god that tops that kind of love, you got something. As it is, it takes unending love to do that.

All of those unfortunate, unwilled, illnesses are God's fault. God sent his song to experience it. Wow. He could have just done it instantly.. since he's all-powerful. He didn't even have to plague our world with so much unwilled suffering, but I guess he loves screwing us over then saving the day. And wait.. Jesus did all of that, yet still the majority of people will go to Hell to suffer forever? Nice.

Quote by: dthmstr254 It's called estimation. And taking estimates is something done in gambling situations all the time. Abortion is a gamble, and those aqre the stakes.

You obviously didn't hear what I said.

Your above claim I spoke of clearly skewed your statistics because your statistics only spoke of those who are Christians. Since you don't have to be a Christian to enter Heaven, like you claim, then your statistics are altered and you need to readjust your "estimate".

Quote by: dthmstr254 If we start killing all babies, because of Christian reasons, then it would be mostly Christians doing so. In 70 years, the last generations of Christians would die off.

Wow, are you really saying only Christian fetuses would be killed? Haven't the fanatics taught you better?

Besides, once all the Christians are gone.. if your god is just, he wouldn't forever send everyone to Hell for the rest of Earth's lifespan.

Quote by: dthmstr254 Because the chaff (Sin and all connected with it, including the sinners) must be seperated from the wheat (the souls of saved people).

How incredibly egoistic of your God. Yeah, they all sin.. but screw the ones that don't worship me. Nice.

Quote by: dthmstr254 Temporal Mechanics (what is possible if time travel were possible) would claim a circle. A Temporal Circle tears at the timeline, because it is an anomaly in the timeline that must be fixed.

Firstly, we can't travel in time.. and we don't know for certain if that would even be possible in the future.

Secondly, your timeline doesn't prove a thing.. especially not that Hell is needed for the survival of our world.

A) you exist
B) you sin
C) you get obliterated from the timeline
D) you don't exist
E) you don't sin
F) you don't get obliterated from the timeline

G) Start back at A.
Why?

How is Christian mythology ANY different? How would the existence of Hell effect the timeline? How the hell is this an argument for Hell being necessary for our world's survival?

Quote by: dthmstr254 When we get to heaven, we have made our choice. We have chosen holiness. This corruption will "Put on incorruption."

Then you finally admit evil and sin is not a requirement of free will.

Yet.. you earlier said this..

potentiality of evil that is the side effect of our free will

Quote by: dthmstr254 Ok, so I made a single aesthetic mistake, and you bite on to try and get me off topic? Not everyone is perfect

No, you assaulted my accusations of your "figure of speech" for not knowing that is was a "figure of speech." I then told you why I made those accusations. Would rather have me never point out your mistakes? That WOULD be easier for you, now wouldn't it?

[Praxius]

Your logic is flawed in my reasoning because if we decided to have an abortion that's one thing..... that's our decision alone weither or not we want to bring a life into this world or not.

I would also like to add to this, that until the fetus forms and is born into this world, it is still a part of my body as much as it's a part of my wife/girlfriend's body.... and if we wish to cut our hair, or cut off something that is infected, or we just don't want it, then we have every right to do so..... just as much as someone wanting to have their tubes tide, a vasectomy, breast implants, face lift, etc..... it is a part of the body and until it can live on it's own, it shall be treated as such.