Islamic leaders discuss sheikh's future

[rcne]

Islamic leaders are meeting in Sydney to decide the future of one of Australia's most senior Muslim clerics, after he made comments about women that have caused outrage and sparked condemnation. Sheikh Taj el-Din Al Hilaly has issued an unreserved apology for likening some women to uncovered meat that attract animals. Lebanese Muslim Association president Tom Zreika says the Sheikh has not denied making the comments, but says they were taken out of context.

Senior Muslim cleric Sheikh Taj el-Din Al Hilaly has apologised for any offence caused by a sermon in which he reportedly laid the blame for sexual assault on women who do not cover their bodies.

Women are responsible for rape --- The problem is Al Hilaly is one of the leading clerics in Australia. Many are calling for deportation - good call. No wonder they are so adamant about the veil; any woman skin is an invitation to rape. How do Muslim men walk the streets in th Western world without going berserk???

Fundamentalist crap that the believers believe...

Islamic leaders discuss sheikh's future. 26/10/2006. ABC News Online

[Abdullah]

The Shaykh partially right, who would a rapist rather go after:

A woman dressed in full Islamic clothing or a woman dressed in a mini skirt? If women just dress modestly without showing there skin in public tempting men then rape levels in the West would go down. In every single rape case, the victim is asked by the defense, "What were you wearing?".

[rcne]

Your response echoes "The Meat Market Mentality". Self control should be enough. You can appreciate a work of art without taking it .

I tend to think the human form is a work of art; just look at a few sculptures from the masters and I think you'll agree.

On the contra side - that which is denied is desired more. By covering/concealing all of a breeding females body; it may breed lust. I think very little would be present IF the norm were not so restrictive.

Why do Muslim men not have a problem wearing Western clothes.

[Jack]

I used to pity people who tried to live in the 21st century using guidelines 2000 years old. I don't anymore. Where men have morals and self-control, a woman could walk naked down the street in safety, at least from physical danger. Only the fundamentalists would try to not even look.
It was a stupid, insensitive, outdated comment from a man about a woman in a religious context. I'm not the least bit surprised.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Abdullah The Shaykh partially right, who would a rapist rather go after: A woman dressed in full Islamic clothing or a woman dressed in a mini skirt? If women just dress modestly without showing there skin in public tempting men then rape levels in the West would go down. In every single rape case, the victim is asked by the defense, "What were you wearing?".

In most cases (not all), rape is an act of anger, not lust or desire. The "tempting men" argument fails miserably in the face of say, American beaches, where hundreds of women are in bathing suits and none are being raped. You see, there is a thing called self control. Personally I think if the arab men spent more time with their women (single or married) they'd be too tired to be rallying in the street protesting this and that. The men spend way too much time with each other and not getting a little consensual gratification with their women. Sex doesn't have to be evil when its consensual and you get rid of religious dogma. Its natural for pete sakes.

Some may see this post as stereotyping Arab men, and that is not my intent at all. Apologies to anyone who may be offended where no offense was meant.

[rcne]

A quick follow-up on this story...

Australia's top Muslim cleric has been barred from preaching for up to three months, after comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat". Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali's comments, suggesting that women who did not wear a headscarf attracted sexual assault, have caused a storm of protest. Sydney's mosque association said the suspension would give the cleric time to consider the impact of his words. But Australian Premier John Howard said the action was insufficient. Many people - including some Muslim leaders - have called for the cleric to be dismissed from office. Sheikh Hilali sparked more controversy on Friday when, asked by reporters if he would resign, he responded: "After we clean the world of the White House first."

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Australia Muslim cleric suspended

Beautiful man this one is. Barred from preaching - he should be barred from Western Society.

[phoenix_fire]

You know, I can see how someone might think that dressing like a stripper or something might be provocative, but just not wearing a headscarf? That's ridiculous. Oh yeah. Guys just find hair so sexy. I know Muslim girls who wear a hijab but the rest of their clothing leaves little to the imagination. I think that that would be more provocative to guys than a modestly dressed woman without her head covered.

[Athena]

Quote by: rcne Women are responsible for rape --- The problem is Al Hilaly is one of the leading clerics in Australia. Many are calling for deportation - good call. No wonder they are so adamant about the veil; any woman skin is an invitation to rape. How do Muslim men walk the streets in th Western world without going berserk??? Fundamentalist crap that the believers believe... Islamic leaders discuss sheikh's future. 26/10/2006. ABC News Online

How ridiculus! When did we stop blaming women for rape? I vividly remember a college professor telling the whole class that women who are raped want to be raped, or they would avoid putting themselves in a position where they could be raped. I remember the horror of attempting to press rape charges on a man, meant the man's defense attroney attempting to prove the woman was a slut or otherwise responsible for the rape. Am I the only one who remembers?

And saying terrible things about women, the bible is full of them! I hope no one is thinking this issue is a Christian verses Muslim issue!!! Look at both religions, and the Koran says more to protect women than the bible. But what is making the biggest difference is culture, not religion. Some countries are closer to the time that these holy books were written, so they are more apt to blame and stone women as the bible explains the rightness of doing this.

The most important factor for the quality of life females are allowed, and how their rapes are handled, is if they have the money that means power in any society. At any time in history, any place on the globe, where human beings have been kept powerless (laws preventing women from owning property, forcing them to be property, and laws protecting slavery) there has been terrible injustice. All the religions are sexist and Islam gives them the most protection. The bible can also be used to promote sexism and slavery.

And personally, I think women do need to take steps to protect themselves, by dressing modestly and avoiding being alone with a man in private. What is modest has changed, but the US began with laws about women keeping their bodies covered. Now we think nothing of her legs and arms being exposed, so we might continue to progress in the direction of reducing male sensitivity to the exposed female body.

[Athena]

Quote by: ItsDarts In most cases (not all), rape is an act of anger, not lust or desire. The "tempting men" argument fails miserably in the face of say, American beaches, where hundreds of women are in bathing suits and none are being raped. You see, there is a thing called self control. Personally I think if the arab men spent more time with their women (single or married) they'd be too tired to be rallying in the street protesting this and that. The men spend way too much time with each other and not getting a little consensual gratification with their women. Sex doesn't have to be evil when its consensual and you get rid of religious dogma. Its natural for pete sakes. Some may see this post as stereotyping Arab men, and that is not my intent at all. Apologies to anyone who may be offended where no offense was meant.

You aren't female are you? Or maybe things have changed a lot? Any time I was a lone with a man, it began a problem of voiding sex, and especially if the male was young, the confrontation could get physically. They were not angry but by nature highly aroused and driven to do what nature designed them to do. Not even old men are save for a woman to be around, unless she herself is old. Being old is a blessing in that it makes it save to be alone with males.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Athena You aren't female are you? Or maybe things have changed a lot? Any time I was a lone with a man, it began a problem of voiding sex, and especially if the male was young, the confrontation could get physically. They were not angry but by nature highly aroused and driven to do what nature designed them to do. Not even old men are save for a woman to be around, unless she herself is old. Being old is a blessing in that it makes it save to be alone with males.

After doing a little digging on the causes of rape, I have to retract my earlier statement about "most (not all) cases of rape is an act of anger", although the underlying causes certainly could be associated with anger. i.e. it seems that a high number of serial rapists are sexually abused as children. This in itself could lead to underlying anger or a lack of knowledge of how to act in society. Ultimately, the causes are too numerous to list and varies wildly. There are even arguments to support evolution as a root cause. Doing a google search on " causes of rape" will lead to many sources.

[kalel29]

Send him to Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia. Any of those MidEast countries will take him. Or, just send him to Indonesia. When religious leaders speak out like that, and then we hear that Muslims are not fanatical or violent, it irks my skin. You can't in one breath say something demeaning, then say in the next your religion is a peaceful one. :(

[rez]

Quote by: Abdullah The Shaykh partially right, who would a rapist rather go after: A woman dressed in full Islamic clothing or a woman dressed in a mini skirt? If women just dress modestly without showing there skin in public tempting men then rape levels in the West would go down. In every single rape case, the victim is asked by the defense, "What were you wearing?".

There are many kinds of rapists and you can not know who a rapist rather go after, therefore, your one track thinking is not sound.


Most criminals commit a crime because they think they can get away with it. I would think that a second class citizen such as a Muslim women would have the most chances of being raped because an Arab man has more credibility in society, therefore, could easily deny their criminal behavior.

Religious laws are no longer relevant in society - I am sorry but your power is slowly slipping away.

[Athena]

Quote by: rez There are many kinds of rapists and you can not know who a rapist rather go after, therefore, your one track thinking is not sound. Most criminals commit a crime because they think they can get away with it. I would think that a second class citizen such as a Muslim women would have the most chances of being raped because an Arab man has more credibility in society, therefore, could easily deny their criminal behavior. Religious laws are no longer relevant in society - I am sorry but your power is slowly slipping away.

The males who molested me were not thinking of it as a crime. Those who pushed in the direction of rape, were only wanting to satisfy their desires. I can remember discussions here where males insisted if a woman was not sexual receptive, she was a tease. I remember especially one male being particularly hostile towards females who made the mistake of dating him and would not fulfill his sexual desire.

I remember leaving these forums because so much abuse was tolerated. I clearly remember arguing against tolerating abuse and being jumped on for doing so. My opinion of many humans is not very high, because what separates us from animals is our minds and our social agreements, and we are not respecting this fact. I think that is largely because so many people deny we are evolved, and think humans were a "special creation", and instead of animal instincts causing a problem, it is "sin". As long as we deny we are animals, and continue tolerating abuse, there will be rape, and multiple human problems. Women's liberation has reduced the protection of women and children, and increased both violence and crime, and I don't like the denial of this, especially not when Christians are pitting themselves against Muslims!!!!.

I don't think a woman keeping her bodied covered and staying at home unless she is escorted to town, is the solution, because I basically lived that way and it was awful! That was self imposed, because males were so agressive towards me, and my husband's neglect increased my vulnerability. But on the other hand, a woman flaunting her sexuality and making herself vulnerable by entering a private place alone with a man, will definitely increase the chances of her beginning raped. It is a hormone driven problem. Not only does dressing modestly reduce the chances of trigger a hormonal response, but the clothing says, "I am not that kind of girl." Dressing to flaunt one's sexuality is saying "I am that kind of girl". I think it is stupid to flaunt it and then object to male advances as though they were not invited. It is also unpleasant to signal modesty, and announce being married, and still get hit on, including brother in law's and a father in law making sexual advances. Come on guys, this male sexual aggressiveness is a problem. In fact it is one of the problems that goes with homosexuality. It is the total pits to be prevented from having any kind of discussion with a man, because of the sex agenda. The Internet is great, because now I can talk with men without the sex agenda causing a problem.

[rcne]

rcne Women are responsible for rape --- The problem is Al Hilaly is one of the leading clerics in Australia. Many are calling for deportation - good call..... How ridiculus! When did we stop blaming women for rape?

Athena, I was responding to the illogical thought that women are in some way responsible for rape, and I found Al Hilaly's reasoning upsetting as did many others.

In fact I find treating women as second class citizens or worse dehumanizing.

Welcome back by the way.

[Athena]

Can we be honest about what our hormones do to us? Some of us having stronger sex drives than others. There are a few young men so tormented by their sex drive that they can't think of anything else, and it is terrible to make them attend co ed classes where they can not avoid being stimulated. And some of their teachers should be wearing robes that hide their figures, or better yet, give these boys mature male teachers.

Denying our reality and insisting we are not evolved from animals and do not share a lot in common with them, but are especially created by God in His image, but then again are "sinful" is, very problematic!!!! This mythical explanation of our creation and then incorrect explanation of our sinfulness, has had humanity in a mess for thousands of years. How about addressing the problem of defining reality with myth?

Until I turned old, every man in my life attempted sex with me. This includes a step father, a father in law and brother's in laws. As you can easily see, this involves many relationships. I mean having sex with my mother's man would be an offensive to my mother! Having sex with my husbands father and brothers would damage all those relationships. Despite reframing from having sex with her husband, my mother's awareness that her husbands were attacked to me, did terrible damange to my relationship with her, and my self image. I spent most my life feeling like a doe in open hunting season. I was really hurt by this, and why has everyone gone silent?

Attacking a man for wanting to protect women, and going silent when the talk becomes the reason he believes women need to protect themselves with dress, and staying at home unless escorted to town, is not going to resolve anything. Females do need protecting. If Muslims are wrong, what is your solution to the problem?

[Abdullah]

Rape victim defends embattled sheik November 04, 2006 A WOMAN who described herself as a rape victim today defended the mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj al-Din al-Hilaly, saying his controversial comments did not mean he justified rape. Cindy Taylor walked with the sheik down the steps of Sydney's Lakemba Mosque after prayers today, before speaking to reporters. The sheik has been at the centre of controversy since likening immodestly dressed women to uncovered meat and suggesting they invited sexual assault. Ms Taylor said she understood what the sheik had tried to say, and called on Australians to be more open-minded. "He was not being politically correct. But, he's not a politician, he's a philosophical leader," she said. "He's a wonderful man and his analogy certainly did not justify the act of rape. "He believes that the act of rape is one of the worst capital crimes in Islam." Ms Taylor said she had been raped twice, when she was 14 and 30, but no one was ever charged. She said was raised a Christian who had developed an interest in Islam. Sheik al-Hilaly yesterday said he would resign if an impartial panel found him guilty of inciting rape.

~ Rape victim defends embattled sheik | | The Australian

[GHook93]

Quote by: Abdullah The Shaykh partially right, who would a rapist rather go after: A woman dressed in full Islamic clothing or a woman dressed in a mini skirt? If women just dress modestly without showing there skin in public tempting men then rape levels in the West would go down. In every single rape case, the victim is asked by the defense, "What were you wearing?".

I hope your not suggesting in any way that a rape victim should take any of the blame for the rape. Are you suggesting that?

[Athena]

Quote by: GHook93 I hope your not suggesting in any way that a rape victim should take any of the blame for the rape. Are you suggesting that?

It doesn't look to me like anyone implied a raped woman is to be blamed for the rape. I think we need to be more honest about male conduct and male attitudes, and why women have been told to dressed modestly and have often been confined to their homes unless escorted, in the first place. The increased honesty would mean better judgements. I my opinion this begins with acknowledging we are evolved and not so different from the rest of the animals.

I am hoping to get another woman on board, because I hate to be alone in my arguments, and worse is living with an unrealistic idea of what we are and what is like to be a man and a woman. What really is sin?

[nkariem]

i totally agree with you athena... as a Muslim woman i believe in the modest dressing and this stipulation makes such logical sense. There are many reasons for the modest dressing, which i wont still mention, but one of them is as u say, to reduce the temptations for men. both men and women can contribute to reducing the amount of rapes going on.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: nkariem i totally agree with you athena... as a Muslim woman i believe in the modest dressing and this stipulation makes such logical sense. There are many reasons for the modest dressing, which i wont still mention, but one of them is as u say, to reduce the temptations for men. both men and women can contribute to reducing the amount of rapes going on.

I have to disagree with you. The way muslims dress bares no meaning on why men rape. Rape is a violent crime against women, and most often NOT a sexual one. A man who can't control himself will rape whom ever he chooses because he's doing it out of rage, not sexual excitement alone. Rape is an international problem, not a cultural one or one that is predominate in any one region. There are many areas of the world where Islam is the predominate religion and women are raped on a daily basis, I point to Darfur for example. Anyone who blames the woman for getting raped is an idiot. If men can't control themselves, how is that the womans fault?

I've tried searching for statistics on rape in muslim countries, but honestly I haven't been able to find any that have any real meaning. I speculate to say that this could be partly due to the male controlled law enforcement and government, and the roll women have in these countries. Some reports I did come across, suggested that muslim women who get raped, rarely report it because it dishonors their family or get accused instead of fornication. Remember, rape is first, a crime of violence against women, not desire for them.