Question For Christians

[zynner]

Quote by: foxmuldr It means that I accept whatever this world throws at me because I am not living for this world. No matter what comes upon us, we must not lose sight of the fact that we (Christians) are witnesses of Jesus Christ. Jesus asked us not to repay and eye for an eye, but rather to love our neighbors as ourselves. If they do us harm, we are to love them in return. In all honesty, that is what I would do.

OK. So, are you saying the only punishment for a rapist is to love him?

I think that is a pretty disgusting position for you to take. It is also contrary to your god's recommendation. Why is that?

~ zynner

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: zynner ItsDarts: Let's look at some "civil laws." If you murder someone, you will get life in prison or be executed. If you rape someone, you will spend 10 years (or whatever) in prison. If you steal a car, you will get 3 years (or whatever) in prison. If you steal gum, you will get 5 days (or whatever) of community service. ALL of these are about "rights." That's true. ALL of these are ALSO about actions or behaviors. That's also true. You seem to be thinking that "moral" automatically means having to do with religion. I realize you are an atheist, but you keep bringing up the term "moral law." That is a DICTATE from a GOD.

We're almost there :)

Look at your list... the first part of each statement.... If you murder, If you steal, If you rape.... THAT part os the Moral law. These parts of your statement are things you aren't suppose to do, it is morally wrong to do these things. The second part of your list... You will get 3 year, you will get life, you will get 5 years.... this is the part of Civil law that deals with the moral behavior. These deal with the rights of the perp/victim receive as a result of the moral behavior. The behavior or moral law is pretty darn universal, I don't know any country in the world that doesn't outlaw murder, rape, theft etc.... The civil portion or rights concerning the breaking of these laws varies from city/state/nation in a wide variety of ways. They change over time, they are different for different people at different times. This all seems to clear now, thanks for the list. In the bible, this god says This is the rights you get for the moral behavior you screwed up. Christians don't have to follow the rights issued by god in this case no more than the State of Michigan has to follow the laws of Texas regarding the death penalty. But Christians still have to follow the laws against the moral behavior.

So now, why don't christians need to follow this civil law handed down by god??....

Christ, god in human form (so they say) decides that now instead of some shekels for the father and marriage for the girl and life long marriage for the rapist, the rapist can either repent, believe in Christ, and his sins will now be forgiven in the afterlife because Jesus suffered for all of mans transgressions against any moral laws. The rapist may still have to pay the price for any local civil laws in this life, but he still has the chance to enter heaven when he dies. This is the supposed "All Loving" thing god did for us.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: zynner OK. So, are you saying the only punishment for a rapist is to love him?

For the true Christian covered by the grace of Jesus Christ, yes. However, the Bible teaches that under the law (as is applicable to ALL who do not accept Jesus Christ and the new covenant his blood affords us) is exactly as you have stated in Deuteronomy.

I think that is a pretty disgusting position for you to take. It is also contrary to your god's recommendation. Why is that?

It is contrary to the law because it is based on love, not condemnation. There is no salvation through the law, only an ability to point out to man where sin lies. Without the law, man would not know what sin is. Through the law, sin is revealed and the need for an atoning Savior is realized.

When you are under grace, which is what it is called when you come to accept, follow and truly believe in Jesus Christ, then your sins, while they are still happening every single day (I sin undoubtedly, probably hundreds of times a day, by the law's standards, which is to say, by God's standards), it is through his grace (or forgiveness) that we will be saved.

Jesus lived the perfect life, He never sinned, not one time. He could not sin, He was/is God. And because He never sinned, and because He chose to give His life up on the cross at Calvary, we now have an out. God is able to migrate our sins from our lives onto Himself and therefore when He died, which He truly did die, our sins died with Him, which means we will live. And because He was God, He was able to raise Himself from the dead, which means we also will live.

God designed the system that way, and whereas it is not easily understandable for a man how such an act can take place and have significance of any kind, that is where the walking by faith comes into play. We accept Jesus' offering and we believe in Him and His teachings. We obey what He has commanded and will not violate the 10 Commandments because of an inward drive/desire not to do so. But even if we do, even if we fall, even if we "sin" and commit one of those acts, we are still forgiven, provided it comes from our flesh and blood weakness and not a conscious desire along the lines of "putting God off and go get me some of that" kind of attitude.

All of us sin accoring to the law. But because of Jesus Christ we will not be judged by the law. We will be judged by our belief in Him and our adherence to His teachings.

If you read the last book of the Bible, called Revelation, you will find that there are 24 elders sitting around the throne. 12 of those will judge those under the law, the other 12 will judge those under grace. Jesus Christ will take on our sins for us if we believe in Him and call on His name (and note that the words in the English language called "believe" and "call" are not instance actions, meaning you do not "believe one time" or "call one time", they are rather ongoing. A better way to describe what we (as Christians) must do would be worded this way: "Jesus Christ will take on our sins for us if we [are believing and continue to believe] in Him and [are calling and continue to call] on His name.")

What Jesus Christ offers mankind is a better way. All we have to do is put down that which we see immediately before us in the flesh and realize and recognize that there is a better future which awaits us. We are making eternal choices right now, and those of us who are seeking an understanding of the Bible, even for personal interests such as "Oooh, eternal life without work or effort, I want me some of that" attitudes, as long as we are honestly seeking an understanding, it will be given to us. And, after we have that understanding the desires of our hearts will be metamorphasized into desires which align with God's purpose for man.

If you've ever seen a true, believing and devout Christian who, at some point in the past was an absolutel wretch of a human being (maybe a prostitute or a drug user, something that even nonbelievers might find heinous), and look at how they are able to turn their life around and simply "beam" from head to toe with the spirit of Jesus Christ living inside of them, it is truly beautiful.

----------
To answer your question above about loving them, I can say this: Once you gain a true acceptance of the spirit, and you gain a true understanding of the teachings of the Bible (though I would argue more that it is a true acceptance of the spirit and not an outright understanding of the Bible), you will find that love will conquer everything. Love will defeat a rapist's act. Love, when descended upon that rapist himself, will push aside all desires and draws he might have to ever committing the act again. Love conquers all, and it is the only thing which conquers all. Everything else is a lie, and therefore love is the only truth. "Jesus is love", I know you've seen that slogan painted in graffiti on underpasses and bridges, etc. That's what it means.

[Fonceai]

@foxmuldr

But with loving the criminal and turning the other cheek, the criminal is not punished.

Most Christian faiths teach that the criminal will be punished for their sin when they die.

But in the meantime, they can rape and murder all they want, and maybe someday actually be sorry and cleanse themself of the sin.

Does that mean that the people should allow that person to continue with their horrible life, with no guarantee they will repent?

[Apokalupsis]

Quote by: zynner Excuse me, but the Bible does not say, "This is for today, but tomorrow you can do whatever you want."

Nope. And it doesn't need to. What it DOES say, is that the Mosaic Law, is for ancient Israel. God promises Israel that if they follow His plan and the Law that He gives to them, that the reward is the promised land.

Did God promise the the "Promise Land" to everyone (including Christians) or was it just Jews?

The Ten Commandments say adultery is a sin, but everybody screws around today. So, are you saying that it's now only Nine Commandments that count?

The 10 Commandments no longer apply as you think they do.

Too much emphasis is placed on the 10 Commandments. They are important, don't get me wrong...and they were extremely important back then...but things changed dramatically with Christ.

First of all...there is a gross misunderstanding what the 10 Commandments are all about. It is a covenant between God and Israel. As Christians, we have a new covenant through Christ.

Matthew 26:26-28
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

The "new covenant" he is referring to, is His own crucifixion. The covenants served the purpose of redemption.

The 10 Commandments (old covenant), are a "contract" with Israel. It is known as the "letter of the law". The new covenant is the "spirit of the law".

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The requirements of the old covenant (10 Commandments), were "wiped out" at the cross (crucifixion).

Colossians 2:13-14
you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

It made the Old Covenant is obsolete:

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

So...what to do? Don't the 10 Commandments have any significance? Aren't they one of the most important things for the Christian? The Jews, confused on the matter, asked Jesus about this. And he answered:

Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ “This is the first and great(est) commandment. “And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

So, I can ask you the same question as ItsDarts: Let's assume you are correct and that times have changed; by what moral basis can you claim your position *if* you are a Christian?

Easy. I'm doing that which God expects and commands. The Law He gave to ancient Israel was never intended for all mankind to obey (this means Christians too).

You are asking a question like "So when did you stop beating your wife?" It's an invalid question because I've never beat my wife. Your question is invalid, because that law, like most OT Law, does not apply to Christians.

I am asking Christians what moral basis they can use to advocate any law that directly contradicts the commandments (or is it the "recommendations," now?) of the Bible and their god.

They can't, and they don't, or at least I cna't think of any laws that do. This one in Deut certainly does not.

[Jack]

And Joseph Smith found some gold tablets that told him something different. What makes his interpretation wrong and your's right?

Many millions believe that the Pope is god's spokesman on Earth. What makes him wrong and you right?

What, to you, constitutes "a true, believing and devout Christian"?

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Fonceai But with loving the criminal and turning the other cheek, the criminal is not punished.

I have no punishment to dole out to someone. I could beat up on their flesh, deny them something (such as their freedom or liberty through incarceration), but in the end has anything really beneficial come out of that?

Most Christian faiths teach that the criminal will be punished for their sin when they die. But in the meantime, they can rape and murder all they want, and maybe someday actually be sorry and cleanse themself of the sin. Does that mean that the people should allow that person to continue with their horrible life, with no guarantee they will repent?

This life is not our destiny. The pains and gains we have in this life are not real or lasting. They are transient and will not endure forever. As such, should that rapist continue on, or should the murderer continue on, or should anyone committing sin continue on, the Bible teaches that the sun shines and the rain falls on the believers as well as the nonbelievers. It is God's system, and we are not to tamper with that system.

There is much more to it than that, but it would require a greatly protracted discussion to factor it all in over a medium like this. Sufficive to say that the Lord is working all things out. As He places desires and appetites upon our (Christian's) spirits, His will is being carried out through us (provided we are obedient), and if we are not obedient then He works it out through others.

There is nothing beyond God's ability, and there is nothing we can do here which will interfere with or negate any of His plans. If we all chose to abandon Him and turn our backs, there would still be a way out because He has promised that to us.

It all comes down to faith and belief in something we cannot touch or see. We (Christians) have faith that even though that murdering/raping/whatevering individual is proceeding as they have previouisly, there is nothing happening which is not being orchestrated by God. Those He might kill are still being reached for salvation, those He might harm are still being lifted up as per His desires, etc. It just seems that here in the flesh there is loss, when in fact there is no loss, only a change and subsequent realization (through an understanding of what will come after our deaths and after we tear off this flesh and put on our true spiritiual mind and understanding) of real gain, as is given by God.

God does not need my help. All I can do is stumble and fall before His perfect ways, unless I listen to His direction, at which time I can soar like th eagles because it comes from Him, not from me.

It is so beautiful... I only wish everyone would seek an understanding because what awaits the believer is beyond imagination. I truly thank God for giving me this revelation and for allowing a wretched person like me to be on the path of being allowed in His kingdom.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: RickHodgin I could beat up on their flesh, deny them something (such as their freedom or liberty through incarceration), but in the end has anything really beneficial come out of that?

Ask that question of the families of their second victim.

The benefit is in saving other lives by sacrificing one flawed one.

Your kind of idealism is usually held by people who aren't married and have no children.

If you do, then you would still love the person who rapes and murders your wife and children and wouldn't want them punished for their crime? You wouldn't want them somehow prevented from another husband's angst over watching his family disappear?

You're basically saying, then, that you think the life of the criminal is more valuable than the life of their future victims, both those he kills and those who must live with the emotional loss.

Under no reasoning, logical or religious, is the suffering of many preferable over the suffereing of one.

[Clarence]

about Rick H.

now, I can't say I agree with everything this guy says. But his brand of faith is a little more like what my impression of Jesus is. I don't think we should put everything aside for the next life. On earth as it is in heaven. I think there's tests here for us to follow, god or no. However; if we never turn the other cheek or try to eliminate evil altogether, we will become evil. It's just, if everyone felt and acted as Rick H perscribes we really would be a lot better off. Reality requires us to fight evil for a minute to protect the savage garden from annihilation

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Isherwood And Joseph Smith found some gold tablets that told him something different. What makes his interpretation wrong and your's right?

Study, and seek an understanding. The truth will reveal itself. The truth is crying out for you, for me, for everyone. It is all around. The book of Proverbs describes it better than I could, but if you read it you'll find that wisdom and folly are both crying out to you. In the flesh it's easier to follow folly.

Nonetheless, the truth is literally crying out for you at the top of its lungs. The problem is that here in the flesh we are not based upon truth. We arrived here (in the flesh) through a lie and we are now here in sin, which is to say we are here against God's will which is, by definition, a lie and a sin. We have this flesh suit on because of Adam's original sin which placed him here, and all of us here.

In order to survive this world, you must deny that which your senses tell you and step out on faith to be saved from the penalty of sin, which is death (the second death, or a spiritual death after you pass away from this flesh-and-blood life). If you do not believe, then this life is the best and closest thing to God you will ever have. The life you live here will be the only "heaven" you will ever see, and the final destination you will have will be one outside of the presence of God. That black emptiness will be cast around you like a tightly knitted full-body sweater, and one which causes nothing but irritation and pain because when you are outside of the presence of God, there is no truth, there are no rules, there is no law, there is no love. God is truth, God is love, and we should all want to have His arms around us, protecting us and providing for us.

It's easy to deny that final outcome for nonbelievers, but none of us will be able to stand before Jesus Christ someday and say "I never had a chance to be taught about you" or something else along those lines. We all have the opportunity, we are simply denying the knowledge of Him by our own decisions, which is to say our own pride.

Many millions believe that the Pope is god's spokesman on Earth. What makes him wrong and you right?

The Bible is very clear about not putting faith in man, any man, even the Pope. Religious people throughout history have caused much tyranny and suffering. Only God should be sought after because (as it is written time and time again) only God is good (that is to say, perfect and true). God has given us everything we need to choose a life in pursuit of Jesus Christ, and His words are true. They are all we need, and evidence of that is all around us.

Also, to make it a little more plain, any religion which teaches that sins can be atoned for here on Earth through acts is called a "works based" religion. The true gift of Jesus Christ is a free gift, not one requiring works (except, arguably, the initial "work" where you choose to believe).

The problem many nonbelievers have with that statement (that Christianity is not a works based religion) is that Christians do many things that nonbelievers do not do, and they do so because the Bible teaches them to do them, and therefore it appears to them to be works. But the difference is the desire to do those works does not come because of an attempt to "make it" into the religion (as if by doing those works we will somehow be admitted into the Kingdom), but rather they bubble up internally as part of an innate desire or drive, accompanied to a great longing to want to carry out God's will, because Jesus Christ is living inside of us (Christians), and His purpose for our life is becoming more important to us than our choices for our life would otherwise be.

We do the works because of one result/aspect of having faith coming to fruition within us, and not in an attempt to attain the faith through those works.

What, to you, constitutes "a true, believing and devout Christian"?

Someone who, when no one is watching, chooses also to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ because it is within their heart to do so. They are not proceeding through pretense or acts in front of men, but are carrying out His will because they (true Christians) have placed a greater value on the teachings of Jesus Christ and the carrying out of those teachings, than on their own personal drives or desires.

The true Christian proceeds through life as a continuous, single, ongoing act. Day in/day out, the true Chistian proceeds as not just a series of instance acts, and especially those done before men, but rather as a will coming from within and a conscious desire/drive to live that life. To achieve that level of faith and belief requires much prayer, fasting and communing with other saints and, of course, listening to God and being obedient to His commands.

Note also that different Christians are called to different purposes and at different levels of faith. Not every Christian is called to be a Pastor, for example. Some are called only to be Christians and to witness to others. Some are called to be leaders within the church. The Bible sums it up by explaining that the church can be thought of as a body, with each bodily member or component doing its part. There is a metaphorical heart, and hands and legs, and so forth. All of us have a role to play and all of us are completing the whole, but not everybody can be the heart or the hands or the feet, otherwise it would be an incomplete body and would not function. As such, what one Christian believes may not be what another one believes, at least in so much as the extent to which life should be "affected" by their belief. Some have no problems watching popular TV shows that other Christians would find outrightly offensive. Neither is wrong, provided they are both coming before God honestly and openly in prayer and asking/testing their acts against God's will and, when being convicted (feeling that something is wrong), address it.

Without constant prayer, fasting and all of that I have described above, the world can easily encroach and takeover again. This world works upon us 24/7. We have to stay in the world 24/7 to keep worldly desires at bay. A desire to carry out the will of God through our obedience is a great effort, to be sure. True Christians are very, very strong, and while their ultimate strength comes from Jesus Christ, their obedience and their initial and ongoing alignment with God comes from a series of choices, choices which ultimately run in direct contrast with the desires of the mind, the teachings of this world and the wants of the flesh.

It is a much more difficult life to be a Christian because everything in this world (everything in this lie) is designed to keep each of us in this world (in this lie). The truth runs upstream against the world, and it is a better way, just not a way which seems obvious or even conducive from within the framework of this lie surrounding us all.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Fonceai Ask that question of the families of their second victim. The benefit is in saving other lives by sacrificing one flawed one.

That statement only holds merit if the value of life is placed only on the life lived here in the flesh. When you begin to realize that this flesh life is not only not our final destination, but rather just a single tick of the clock at a weigh station of our existence, then the reality of the need for love and forgiveness across the board becomes more real.

Had that rapist been loved at age 0, and then at age 1, and age 2, and 3, 4, 5... all the way up until now, chances are he would not have carried out the act he did. The truth there is evident. And had everyone loved him, and everyone else in this world, then there would be no intolerance, no hate, no negativity.

Love truly does conquer all. And only through the outright acceptance of that realization, and employing it to such an extent that you are willing to be the vicitim of that crime while standing firm always on your belief that love is the better way, will its dominent position over any situation take hold. Someone else will see that act, and will realize its significance. That person may or may not be the rapist himself, but if it is then there would be proof of love winning out.

Recently in this country (United States) there was a shooting in an Amish schoolhouse where several Amish students were killed. After the funeral was had, the Amish drove by the shooter's family's house to let them know that he was forgiven.

Those people lost their daughters, their sons ... and yet they could forgive. There are many Christians who could learn a thing or two from an act like that. I am quite certain many did actually.

Your kind of idealism is usually held by people who aren't married and have no children. If you do, then you would still love the person who rapes and murders your wife and children and wouldn't want them punished for their crime? You wouldn't want them somehow prevented from another husband's angst over watching his family disappear?

I am married and I have one almost 3-year old son. I have prayed much about this and I can honestly say that I would. My faith to that end has not been tested, though I have had similar events happen in my life where it has been tested and I could see Jesus standing up and me sitting down until it was all over. It was truly amazing for me to see, and something that I was actually surprised took over so completely.

The love of a Christian who is living in faith, and living in prayer and is fasting and is communing with other saints is one of joy, peace and love. There is nothing which can be thrown at that person that will rattle them for any length of time. They might be shaken, they might be stirred, but all they have to do is hit their knees and look up unto Heaven and receive strength from their Father to realize the futility of addressing the flesh and fighting back in some worldly way. Christ reveals Himself to that believer and when confronted with that love and with that truth, only the most hardened man could not submit. And anyone kneeling down in prayer confronting Jesus in that way must submit.

Love wins out, and it is in the only thing that will win out in the end.

You're basically saying, then, that you think the life of the criminal is more valuable than the life of their future victims, both those he kills and those who must live with the emotional loss. Under no reasoning, logical or religious, is the suffering of many preferable over the suffereing of one.

The arguments of the world do not often coincide with the arguments of faith because they are both built on different pretenses. In one circumstance (the worldly view) you are placing value on flesh-and-blood life for the sake of that life. And whereas a Christian would place value on life, if only because God Himself places value on life, the purpose therein of a decision to forgive that person and allow them to proceed is one based on a stronger pull or desire, which is built entirely out of Love.

It is not something very many nonbelievers, or even many Christians, could ever do. There would need to be some law imposed because they place a particular value on flesh-and-blood life. But the Bible teaches that the greatest sacrifice one can give for another is to lay down their life, and because Jesus went to the cross and laid down His life for all of us, I am willing to live a life as close to His as I possibly can, and that means loving everyone. Note also that along with that love comes the desire to teach and reach out and lend a hand and help to understand when it is possible, which also comes from love.

I have no desires to harm anyone here, and I am not attempting to beat people up because of their arguments or points of view. I am only explaining as best I can through the teachings of the Bible as they would be applied.

Love is the only thing that can win out. No matter what the situation is, no matter what comes up, no matter how bad it might seem, no matter how much many other solutions might seem more desirable, in the end it is only love that will win out, and it is only love that will stand victorious. It is that way because God is still in control.

[Nathan Struth]

gj rick but....does that mean it's okay to have a raped woman MARRY the rapist and never be able to divorce? This is weird...how can Christ say turn the other cheek and then say that "anyone child who slanders their parent must die."? WTF? Is that turning the cheek?

[Fonceai]

@RickHodgin

Just to warn you... I believe in the Divinity of Christ, but that's where my Christianity stops. I doubt any strong faith and I have already established the framework in which I am going to logically trap you. Just fair warning...

So you would love the person who rapes and murders your wife and violently sodomizes your son to death?

If they attempted to do this in your home, while you were present, and the only way you could stop the person would be to kill them (or else they would come to your home again and again until they succeeded), would you kill the person in an act of defense?

Or another way to ask the question...

Because you can never truly know the extent of a man's intent until a deed is completed, would you kill him to prevent him from fulfilling his intention?

Drop the Bible talk and answer plainly. A man is in your home. He says that he intends to rape your wife and son until they are dead. The only way you can stop him is to kill him and you have a 2-second window in which to do so or else you will be rendered immobile and forced to watch.

Do you kill him?

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Nathan Struth gj rick but....does that mean it's okay to have a raped woman MARRY the rapist and never be able to divorce? This is weird...how can Christ say turn the other cheek and then say that "anyone child who slanders their parent must die."? WTF? Is that turning the cheek?

There is the Mosaic Law, which are the commandments handed down to Moses plus the 1600+ other laws which were given to Moses by God for those kinds of crimes. People who have not accepted Jesus Christ are still under the law. This is referred to as the "Mosaic Covenant" or the "Old Covenant", as is found in the Old Testament.

There is then also, and that which came afterward, the "New Covenant", which offers a replacement to the old. When Jesus came and died on the cross and was raised again from the dead, His sacrifice became *THE* atoning sacrifice for all time, past, present and future. His love offering on the cross is now available to everyone who will believe upon Him, and when they do believe they are freed from the Mosaic Law and the Mosaic Covenant.

The truth is that the law is still in effect, and will be for all eternity. The reality is that for those who follow Jesus Christ we no longer have to follow the law, and are, therefore, not bound to its constraints.

Jesus offers us a better way through truth and love. His way promises us a life of peace, joy and happiness, and His promise is true. Because of His offering, we no longer have to obey the Mosaic Law to the letter. When Jesus died the synagogue was destroyed and the cloth which separated the common man from God's holy place was ripped from top to bottom, meaning that we all now have an ability to come to God (Jesus Christ) and be saved.

The victim of the rapists, to fulfill the law, should do as is commanded in the Bible. However, because of Jesus Christ, if that person does not do that act, then they are saved by grace and the law does not need to apply to them in that way.

Jesus offers an alternative to the law, even though the law is still in effect and, to the true Christian, there would be a great desire to fulfil the law's philosophy or overall intent. Every letter of the law requirement would not be desired, but the general philosophy of the law (which is summed up in the "love thy neighbor as thyself" sentiment) would be there.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Fonceai So you would love the person who rapes and murders your wife and violently sodomizes your son to death?

Yes. I am commanded to, but more than that I am able, through faith, to see the greater picture through spiritual eyes. I can recognize that the act done to my wife or son is already completed. Were I to retaliate with anything other than love, then only an escalation could occur. However, with love and forgiveness, walls are torn down and the distance between that rapist and myself becomes less, which means he is being brought closer to Jesus Christ.

If they attempted to do this in your home, while you were present, and the only way you could stop the person would be to kill them (or else they would come to your home again and again until they succeeded), would you kill the person in an act of defense?

I have thought much about this. I do not believe I could kill another human being, even in self defense. I am saved, and because of my salvation my family is saved. I would not fear for their destination, but I would fear for my own were I to succumb to rage or strinking out/back at some violent intruder.

Or another way to ask the question... Because you can never truly know the extent of a man's intent until a deed is completed, would you kill him to prevent him from fulfilling his intention?

No.

Drop the Bible talk and answer plainly. A man is in your home. He says that he intends to rape your wife and son until they are dead. The only way you can stop him is to kill him and you have a 2-second window in which to do so or else you will be rendered immobile and forced to watch. Do you kill him?

I disagree with your statement that what you say is the only way to stop him. Prayer can be amazingly powerful as it is probable that at some point in the past that would-be attacker has heard at least some portion of the word. I would pray and tell him that I love him and forgive him (at least in my heart that is what I pray I would do in that circumstance) and that he doesn't need to do this thing.

As I have said, love wins out. Love conquers all. There is no victory to be had, except that which was made through love.

[GHook93]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Heh. Good point! I bet even the Ortho Jews don't live by this one nowadays...:eek:

Say your only anti-zionist, but two post in a row that where exclusively anti-Semitic!

[Jack]

In order to survive this world, you must deny that which your senses tell you and step out on faith to be saved from the penalty of sin, which is death

So religious faith=nonsense. I agree.

The problem is that here in the flesh we are not based upon truth. We arrived here (in the flesh) through a lie and we are now here in sin, which is to say we are here against God's will which is, by definition, a lie and a sin. We have this flesh suit on because of Adam's original sin which placed him here, and all of us here.

According to Western religion. The problem with believing you have the ultimate truth is that you're unable to appreciate the joy and richness of our lives here. Your book has told you that life is misery and pain, and that you should divorce yourself from it. You fail to take any responsibility for your own life or the planet. The good aspects of your personality are due to god and the parts you are ashamed of are due to satan. How convenient. Thus the theist is just a powerless dupe in the eternal struggle between two supernatural entities.
In the end, all superstitions boil down to silliness. Religion is no different.

[Apokalupsis]

Quote by: Isherwood And Joseph Smith found some gold tablets that told him something different. What makes his interpretation wrong and your's right? Many millions believe that the Pope is god's spokesman on Earth. What makes him wrong and you right? What, to you, constitutes "a true, believing and devout Christian"?

Who are you responding to? If to my post above, it seems out of place and off-topic, perhaps the subject of a different thread. If to someone else, my bad. It is unclear.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Isherwood According to Western religion. The problem with believing you have the ultimate truth is that you're unable to appreciate the joy and richness of our lives here. Your book has told you that life is misery and pain, and that you should divorce yourself from it.

The Bible teaches that in the overall scheme of things this life is undesirable as a focus of attention. But the Bible also teaches that sin is enjoyable, though only for a season.

You fail to take any responsibility for your own life or the planet. The good aspects of your personality are due to god and the parts you are ashamed of are due to satan. How convenient. Thus the theist is just a powerless dupe in the eternal struggle between two supernatural entities. In the end, all superstitions boil down to silliness. Religion is no different.

This portion of your response indicates a lack of understanding regarding that which I have written.