Did Eve make the right moral choice?

[samsara15]

Regardless of whether one is Christian or not, we all are familiar with the story of Adam and Eve. Some say Eve's error was to choose the world of the senses over the abstract beauty of the worldly pleasures. Eve is usually cast as shallow and overly-devoted to the animal pleasures of the body. Asceticsm is usually cast, in most religions, as greatly morally superior to sensualism. Is this really true? Doesn't the promotion of asceticism lead to rejection of this world, lower status of women, and absolutist religions that ceaselessly war with each other, like Islam and Christianity, causing much bloodshed?

Shouldn't we value the joys of the senses, since they are quite likely the only joys we will ever know, if there is no God and no afterlife?

[Nathan Struth]

agreed, I think the sensualism is better. Senses: it's good to have them. I especially love the mind and it's conjurance of stories like adam and eve and the existance of god. It's funny. (I'm dressing up as Jesus for Holloween!)

[JohnMK]

Speaking hypothetically (I believe it's fiction), I think she made the correct choice, if you can even say choice had anything to do with it. If God designed us, then He should have known what His program was capable of, similarly to when I'm coding in 'C' and I have a stack overflow. I don't damn the function to hell, I rewrite it, recognizing that I made a mistake. From the viewpoint of an all-powerful, all-knowing God, I don't believe free will exists.

[samsara15]

I don't even want to deal with the the idea of human suffering, free will, and the contradictions of an all-everything God here, just looking at the rejection of the world inherent in most religions, Eastern as well as Western.

What prompted this thread was a posting on another board in which a Yoga advocate was presenting the Adam and Eve story as an analogy of the superiority of ascetism over our 'brute animal' instinct. Which also leads to treating the animals badly. How crass, this person said, to support sensuality, we should rise above our animal instincts to achieve true spirituality. To which my response was that the 'crude animal sexual act' humans engage in is one of the highest points of most of our otherwise mundane lives.

[underbear1]

when in doubt blame the woman

[zauhiyq]

Quote by: JohnMK Speaking hypothetically (I believe it's fiction), I think she made the correct choice, if you can even say choice had anything to do with it. If God designed us, then He should have known what His program was capable of, similarly to when I'm coding in 'C' and I have a stack overflow. I don't damn the function to hell, I rewrite it, recognizing that I made a mistake. From the viewpoint of an all-powerful, all-knowing God, I don't believe free will exists.

You and Nathan said a lot. I happen to feel there are pleasures in defeating carnal desires. One can enjoy sweet drink and food, sex and sleep. I don't like it when I feel like I have to have it. And I feel powerful when I can go without it or I imagine I would be if I could. I wouldn't need anything and no one could tempt me. There would be no reason to be jealous of anyone.

But if this is not the case and flesh comes with the game. Eve may have only proven that the women may be stronger in flesh than man. For she did not fear to die or to be punished by God. Man only tries to play it like she saw the fruit was good to eat like she was tempted and all that. When it was more like she had no true incentive to be obedient. Being a new soul in flesh and all, she was still thinking she was just a soul. lol

[JohnMK]

Like in food, a well-balanced and diverse diet of pleasures of all types is probably "best."

[phoenix_fire]

The Adam and Eve thing is so misconstrued. "Eating the fruit" is not code for having sex. The serpent tried to convince Eve that God was deceiving her. It tried to tell her that she could have power and equality with God and that He was just tricking her into not taking advantage of it just to keep humans below Him. Eve's sin was believing this. It was her failure to trust God, her covetousness of things that God had not provided, and her pride and arrogance to want to compete with God that condemned her. It was her choice and she made a bad one.

[Jack]

There wasn't much of a choice. "Stay as I've created you (human) or aspire to be like me and I'll punish you by making you...human". Unless you believe she was created with the intent that she would be a god initially.

[JohnMK]

Thank you for the clarification, phoenix_fire, I had forgot the particulars.

IMO, Eve is guilty of nothing worse than naivetee. Every child goofs up and goes against direction now and then. Parents don't kick their children out until at least the age of 16 or 18. By then they are far more worldly wise and philosophically/ethically educated than Eve probably ever was. I think God was pretty mean. Of course I say that hypothetically because I don't believe this story. But I'll entertain it for the purposes of this conversation.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: samsara15 I don't even want to deal with the the idea of human suffering, free will, and the contradictions of an all-everything God here, just looking at the rejection of the world inherent in most religions, Eastern as well as Western. What prompted this thread was a posting on another board in which a Yoga advocate was presenting the Adam and Eve story as an analogy of the superiority of ascetism over our 'brute animal' instinct. Which also leads to treating the animals badly. How crass, this person said, to support sensuality, we should rise above our animal instincts to achieve true spirituality. To which my response was that the 'crude animal sexual act' humans engage in is one of the highest points of most of our otherwise mundane lives.

Was this persons name Mike Dubelld or something like that?

[samsara15]

I don't know what the person's name was - it was on Netscape.
The person who posted it calls themselves anarchy.

This is the reference given:

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/20...htm&frame=true

and this is the thread of the dicusssion.

Explanation of Genesis » Netscape.com

As is obvious, I'm not a believer, and view the Eve story as Christian mythology. My primary interest in the story is in how it effects other people and their conduct and political actions.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: samsara15 I'm not a believer, and view the Eve story as Christian mythology. My primary interest in the story is in how it effects other people and their conduct and political actions.

I AM a believer, but I take the story as a metaphor. If it is a myth, it is a Judaic myth, now adopted by the Christians.

In the story, the obvious inference is that Eve made a big mistake. To spin it in the opposite direction is gonna be difficult, samsara.

The tree was the "Knowledge of Good and Evil." Consuming the fruit imparted this knowledge and led to humanity as a whole (Eve's descendants) making our own moral choices based on such knowledge. In the story, God originally is saying, "Trust Me to tell you right from wrong." Eve decided to make those choices herself, not to trust God. It's pretty obvious that we find ourselves in moral quandries. This story attempts to define the source of this angst.

[JohnMK]

Don't you think that it takes wisdom, to know to trust God, and to know the implications of disobedience? As I said earlier, she was naive. And then God totally over-reacted instead of being the beneficient Father he should have been.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: JohnMK God totally over-reacted instead of being the beneficient Father he should have been.

Heh. Who are you to judge God?:rolleyes:

[brien]

Quote by: samsara15 Regardless of whether one is Christian or not, we all are familiar with the story of Adam and Eve. Some say Eve's error was to choose the world of the senses over the abstract beauty of the worldly pleasures. Eve is usually cast as shallow and overly-devoted to the animal pleasures of the body. Asceticsm is usually cast, in most religions, as greatly morally superior to sensualism. Is this really true? Doesn't the promotion of asceticism lead to rejection of this world, lower status of women, and absolutist religions that ceaselessly war with each other, like Islam and Christianity, causing much bloodshed? Shouldn't we value the joys of the senses, since they are quite likely the only joys we will ever know, if there is no God and no afterlife?

Do adults really believe in this fairy tale? Seems so strange to me.

[ItsDarts]

I've seen many many christians make the claim that this story is metaphorical. If this is the case, and I assume it to be, then what is all this crap about original sin? Obviously if its metaphorical, then original sin never existed.

[JohnMK]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Heh. Who are you to judge God?:rolleyes:

I'm not judging God. This is a hypothetical discussion.

[JohnMK]

Quote by: ItsDarts I've seen many many christians make the claim that this story is metaphorical. If this is the case, and I assume it to be, then what is all this crap about original sin? Obviously if its metaphorical, then original sin never existed.

It could however be metaphorical to the original sin -- that sin being unrecorded by man but no less real, hypothetically.

[Nathan Struth]

Well who is god to judge any of us? He seems like a complete asshole due to his apathy. And apathy is analogous to not existing! It's like death! So...how did eve make the wrong choice? If one must build spirituality; they must first have their senses about them. One cannot build senses with only spirtuality. Is this true?