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iahag · Oct 16, 2006, 02:59 pm

I know this argument is simplistic and probably been discussed off topic in other threads, but needless to say, I wish to present to the theists among you to hear what you have to say.

From a theists point of view, we are the created and that creator be god. Created requires a creator by definition. The question I put to you is this; What/who created god?---

If the elegance of our world appears to be the work some form of creator (lets assume it is). Then surely the forces/intelligence which created this world, reside in a world all the more perfect than us? Surely the elegance of the world or non world which this god resides in is all the more perfect a setting for a higher power from which to construct our world. The elegance of this deitys world implies a creator.

And thus we meet the iteration of creators of creators of creators...

Assumptions:

Assuming we cannot create nor alter that which we have not seen nor detected or by any means know about theoretically or practically.
Assuming that the universe is the work of a god.

------------------------------------------------------

Edit: (in response to agnos for the convenience of lazy people)

I define god as the creator of a beings reality. I cant really go into to nikity pikity bits because I dont believe in such a thing. Ill leave such things to the theists presenting arguments against me. I presume they have queried arguments like mine before.

As for time - In our universe as we know it, for things to change we need to be 'moving' in time. Lets extrapolate this to worlds such as a God's perhaps. Theists maintain that things just dont 'appear' out of nowhere. This is a common argument for God (out of ignorance). So by that logic, I can say that god did not just appear out of nowhere, I can further this and say that God MUST have experienced some form of time during his existence to be there. Why? Because infinite does not exist in any world ever. You cannot maintain that god's presence has been everywhere forever.

key assumption(well I consider this absolute fact, a logical inevitability):
Everything anywhere that is in the real universe is universally balanced. Infinite implies irrational imbalance.

Agnos · Oct 16, 2006, 03:07 pm

Two things which I immediatly find troublesome with your argument:

(1) One must first define God. You seem to be assigning specifics to the notion of God. However, you haven't clearly stated what those specifics are. For instance, do you believe God (the notion) is a distinct and individual entity? Do you believe God is mind? Etc? One must first define what something is before one is able to make assertions regarding the nature of its existence.

(2) To say that God was created is to presuppose time. What if time does not exist in the realm of God? Undoubtedly, for a human being, this is difficult to imagine. But for something to be created/destroyed, should not things change? And what else, besides time, can be said to dictate change?

Maybe you can expand upon these two points before we continue.

Kamehameha34 · Oct 16, 2006, 03:27 pm

Christianity will define God in a way that he is exempt from all logical assumptions that would contradict his existence.

PatrickHenry · Oct 16, 2006, 03:38 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Agnos

(2) To say that God was created is to presuppose time. What if time does not exist in the realm of God? Undoubtedly, for a human being, this is difficult to imagine. But for something to be created/destroyed, should not things change? What else, besides time, can be said to dictate change?

I am a theist who doesn't claim to be able to prove God's existence. But the time issue is an interesting one, Agnos. The great physicists have shown that time is related to space, ie. it is also a construct, if space is a construct. This is known as the Space/Time continuum.

I postulate that God is OUTSIDE the S/Tc as well as within it. The Creator made the universe which includes time. His viewpoint is timeless, and He views all of time from a viewpoint of eternal Nowness.

Nearly impossible for time-based creatures like us humans to comprehend, but that is how I conceive of Him.

As to the original argument, I suppose for many people it is easier, or at least as easy, to think of an Eternal Universe as an Eternal God. Meaning no creator necessary...

underbear1 · Oct 16, 2006, 03:41 pm

The thread author is asking others to prove a negative..........sorry no kewpie doll for you.

weasel · Oct 16, 2006, 04:24 pm

You cannot define "God"; you can't put him in a box and say "you are this and not that." If that were the case, the common concept of God as all knowing and all powerful would be made invalid. Most importantly, I believe that logic doesn't apply when one is questioning about the Almighty; I feel it is beyond our understanding and is therefore a matter of faith that science has no business to intrude upon.

Kamehameha34 · Oct 16, 2006, 05:10 pm

^ I rest my case ^

Quote:

Quote by: Kamehameha34

Christianity will define God in a way that he is exempt from all logical assumptions that would contradict his existence.

Agnos · Oct 16, 2006, 05:26 pm

Quote:

Quote by: weasel

You cannot define "God"; you can't put him in a box and say "you are this and not that."

Yes, that is what I was getting to. I was hoping that, in answering my question, he would come to this realization.

**Jack** · Oct 16, 2006, 05:47 pm

Quote:

a matter of faith that science has no business to intrude upon.

Oh, if only religion would stay out of science as well, what a wonderful world this could be.

rez · Oct 16, 2006, 05:55 pm

Proof God does not Exist with a yummy twist!

iahag · Oct 16, 2006, 06:31 pm

Quote:

(1) One must first define God. You seem to be assigning specifics to the notion of God. However, you haven't clearly stated what those specifics are. For instance, do you believe God (the notion) is a distinct and individual entity? Do you believe God is mind? Etc? One must first define what something is before one is able to make assertions regarding the nature of its existence.

(2) To say that God was created is to presuppose time. What if time does not exist in the realm of God? Undoubtedly, for a human being, this is difficult to imagine. But for something to be created/destroyed, should not things change? And what else, besides time, can be said to dictate change?

I defined god as the creator of a beings reality. I cant really go into to nikity pikity bits because I dont believe in such a thing. Ill leave such things to the theists presenting arguments against me. I presume they have queried arguments like mine before.

As for time - In our universe as we know it, for things to change we need to be 'moving' in time. Lets extrapolate this to worlds such as a God's perhaps. Theists maintain that things just dont 'appear' out of nowhere. This is a common argument for God (out of ignorance). So by that logic, I can say that god did not just appear out of nowhere, I can further this and say that God MUST have experienced some form of time during his existence to be there. Why? Because infinite does not exist in any world ever. You cannot maintain that god's presence has been everywhere forever.

key assumption(well I consider this absolute fact, a logical inevitability):
Everything anywhere that is in the real universe is universally balanced. Infinite implies irrational imbalance.

Agnos · Oct 16, 2006, 06:39 pm

Anything travelling at the speed of light does not experience the passage of time, yes? Thus the passage of time, according to a photon, is infinitly small. Therefore, there is such a thing as infinity, even in, as you say, the "real universe."

iahag · Oct 16, 2006, 06:50 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Agnos

Ahh. But anything travelling at the speed of light does not experience time, no? Thus time, according to a photon, is infinite.

Perhaps you know something I dont? You explicitly say that things travel. Does this not imply a distance/time measurement?

Your statement implies that photons experience time at
[infinite seconds/'standard second'].

Agnos · Oct 16, 2006, 06:55 pm

Quote:

Quote by: iahag

You explicitly say that things travel. Does this not imply a distance/time measurement?

Not from the reference frame of a photon. But from our reference frame, the photon is indeed travelling. I know, General Relativity can seem a bit paradoxical at times, but it really isn't.

iahag · Oct 16, 2006, 07:13 pm

I must confess I have not looked heavily at general relativity. I still cant see why it does not experience time. With respect to itself, its velocity is 0. Thats 0 [D/T]. Which implys D=0 or T=infinite, and we know D=0. ANYWHO, even if photons do experience time at [infinite seconds/standard second] (which is impossible otherwise we wouldnt experience them), we know that we dont know everything and I shall still maintain that everything is universally in balance, otherwise it wouldnt exist.

Agnos · Oct 16, 2006, 09:16 pm

Let us wait for a second opinion, then. Anyone?

StrongHeartsWin · Oct 16, 2006, 09:28 pm

Quote:

Quote by: iahag

You cannot maintain that god's presence has been everywhere forever.

You underestimate what a theist will continue to maintain in the face of reason or proof.

StrongHeartsWin · Oct 16, 2006, 09:31 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Agnos

Therefore, there is such a thing as infinity, even in, as you say, the "real universe."

Infinity exists within the finite. There are an infinite number of points within a 12 inch ruler because division can continue within the confines of space to smaller and smaller units that are sliced.

Agnos · Oct 16, 2006, 10:06 pm

Another example of infinity. Thank you.

But we are veering a bit off-topic here, aren't we? The root of this particular argument was to say that God (if one exists) does not have to be bound by time. Therefore, it is not necessary to say that God was created.

Fonceai · Oct 16, 2006, 11:12 pm

Not necessarily.

In all seriousness, you can play God in Black and White.

You can save your game and see how events play out, then reload your game to earlier. That's a form of omniscience.

Given a trainer, cheat codes, or a memory editor, you're omnipotent within the bounds of the world.

If we can make games where we play God, why can't we be nothing more than some other entity's video game?

Relatively speaking, they are a God to us. But in their own frame of reference, they're just some 14 year old kid staying up late on a Saturday night.

Oct 16, 2006, 02:59 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
iahag Skeptic of Skeptics Location: Bristol/Plymouth Posts: 219	Proof that God does not exist... I know this argument is simplistic and probably been discussed off topic in other threads, but needless to say, I wish to present to the theists among you to hear what you have to say. From a theists point of view, we are the created and that creator be god. Created requires a creator by definition. The question I put to you is this; What/who created god?--- If the elegance of our world appears to be the work some form of creator (lets assume it is). Then surely the forces/intelligence which created this world, reside in a world all the more perfect than us? Surely the elegance of the world or non world which this god resides in is all the more perfect a setting for a higher power from which to construct our world. The elegance of this deitys world implies a creator. And thus we meet the iteration of creators of creators of creators... Assumptions: Assuming we cannot create nor alter that which we have not seen nor detected or by any means know about theoretically or practically. Assuming that the universe is the work of a god. ------------------------------------------------------ Edit: (in response to agnos for the convenience of lazy people) I define god as the creator of a beings reality. I cant really go into to nikity pikity bits because I dont believe in such a thing. Ill leave such things to the theists presenting arguments against me. I presume they have queried arguments like mine before. As for time - In our universe as we know it, for things to change we need to be 'moving' in time. Lets extrapolate this to worlds such as a God's perhaps. Theists maintain that things just dont 'appear' out of nowhere. This is a common argument for God (out of ignorance). So by that logic, I can say that god did not just appear out of nowhere, I can further this and say that God MUST have experienced some form of time during his existence to be there. Why? Because infinite does not exist in any world ever. You cannot maintain that god's presence has been everywhere forever. key assumption(well I consider this absolute fact, a logical inevitability): Everything anywhere that is in the real universe is universally balanced. Infinite implies irrational imbalance. The more painless an exercise, the more likely you are of doing it. The more painful an exercise, the more likely you are of learning from it. Last edited by iahag; Oct 16, 2006 at 06:36 pm.

Oct 16, 2006, 03:07 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Agnos Not Agnostic. Posts: 70	Two things which I immediatly find troublesome with your argument: (1) One must first define God. You seem to be assigning specifics to the notion of God. However, you haven't clearly stated what those specifics are. For instance, do you believe God (the notion) is a distinct and individual entity? Do you believe God is mind? Etc? One must first define what something is before one is able to make assertions regarding the nature of its existence. (2) To say that God was created is to presuppose time. What if time does not exist in the realm of God? Undoubtedly, for a human being, this is difficult to imagine. But for something to be created/destroyed, should not things change? And what else, besides time, can be said to dictate change? Maybe you can expand upon these two points before we continue. Last edited by Agnos; Oct 16, 2006 at 05:46 pm.

Oct 16, 2006, 04:24 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
weasel Marksman Location: "A place that cannot be found except by those who already know where it is." Posts: 199	You cannot define "God"; you can't put him in a box and say "you are this and not that." If that were the case, the common concept of God as all knowing and all powerful would be made invalid. Most importantly, I believe that logic doesn't apply when one is questioning about the Almighty; I feel it is beyond our understanding and is therefore a matter of faith that science has no business to intrude upon. "Rage, rage against the dying of the light." -Dylan Thomas

Oct 16, 2006, 05:55 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
rez technê Posts: 2,459	Proof God does not Exist with a yummy twist! I'm the thought that never crossed my mind.

Oct 16, 2006, 07:13 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
iahag Skeptic of Skeptics Location: Bristol/Plymouth Posts: 219	I must confess I have not looked heavily at general relativity. I still cant see why it does not experience time. With respect to itself, its velocity is 0. Thats 0 [D/T]. Which implys D=0 or T=infinite, and we know D=0. ANYWHO, even if photons do experience time at [infinite seconds/standard second] (which is impossible otherwise we wouldnt experience them), we know that we dont know everything and I shall still maintain that everything is universally in balance, otherwise it wouldnt exist. The more painless an exercise, the more likely you are of doing it. The more painful an exercise, the more likely you are of learning from it.

Oct 16, 2006, 03:27 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Kamehameha34 The dingos! Posts: 4,335	Christianity will define God in a way that he is exempt from all logical assumptions that would contradict his existence.

Oct 16, 2006, 03:41 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
underbear1 BANNED Posts: 2,630	The thread author is asking others to prove a negative..........sorry no kewpie doll for you.

Oct 16, 2006, 06:39 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Agnos Not Agnostic. Posts: 70	Anything travelling at the speed of light does not experience the passage of time, yes? Thus the passage of time, according to a photon, is infinitly small. Therefore, there is such a thing as infinity, even in, as you say, the "real universe."

Oct 16, 2006, 09:16 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Agnos Not Agnostic. Posts: 70	Let us wait for a second opinion, then. Anyone?

Oct 16, 2006, 10:06 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Agnos Not Agnostic. Posts: 70	Another example of infinity. Thank you. But we are veering a bit off-topic here, aren't we? The root of this particular argument was to say that God (if one exists) does not have to be bound by time. Therefore, it is not necessary to say that God was created.

Oct 16, 2006, 11:12 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	Not necessarily. In all seriousness, you can play God in Black and White. You can save your game and see how events play out, then reload your game to earlier. That's a form of omniscience. Given a trainer, cheat codes, or a memory editor, you're omnipotent within the bounds of the world. If we can make games where we play God, why can't we be nothing more than some other entity's video game? Relatively speaking, they are a God to us. But in their own frame of reference, they're just some 14 year old kid staying up late on a Saturday night.