Proof that God does not exist...

[samsara15]

This idea has occurred to me, but since I don't believe anything an be created or destroyed, I view reality as either imagination or the dreams of God, if there is such a being. Something has to either be eternal or timeless. If there is not such a being, then I believe physical reality has always existed.

The question of infinities is unanswerable.

Hindus maintain that Brahman is beyond existence and non-existence.

[Fonceai]

Yet some people try to answer it.

Or worse yet, they try to presume that their own personal answer is the real answer for everyone.

I have zero tolerance for that.

The last person who pointed at my daughter and said that she would go to Hell if she weren't baptized got a broken finger.

Maybe God made me mindlessly violent against religious extremists to show them that religious extremism is wrong and is worthy of physical punishment.

But I can't prove it... I can only believe it.

[zauhiyq]

Quote by: Agnos No matter how delicately you put it, this is an insult.

It's pretty ignorant to think that's an insult. Pointing out what I perceive in certain instances or events might be fair in being perceive as an insult.

To say you have no confidence in yourself based on an assumption you made, pretty much to me is a challenge that you should do better next time and be open minded if you but only trust yourself to see through the differences.

[zauhiyq]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Oh yeah, Zauhiyq, I don't need to know your opinions on how I post what I say. Everyone starts out stating their assumptions. Only when your assumptions are stated can one begin to support their views, which are assumptions, with evidence. I tire of people saying that I can't have assumptions, especially after they put their own out clear as day.

Ok, it's all in good spirit, but you have to be in good spirits to know that. So keep on with your assumptions then. Good cheers to ya. And let me know when I start out assuming something dealing with the topic ok? I don't use assumptions to support MY views and evidence is not assumption, please. I made assumptions about you with explaination and a remedy. lol so now.

Quote by: dthmstr254 Nope, by saying that God was created, the person who posted this thread implies that God has a beginning, and everything that begins will end.

Hmmm, is there a problem here? I did state that belief is assumption right? You believe God can't have a beginning and end right? .....See, this sentence to the left is a question for you, not an assumption. This is how you handle a topic. Lets go on because it gets funnier.

Quote by: dthmstr254 What it takes to create is to start out with absolutely nothing and come out with something. So, go create dirt out of a vacuum. Oh wait, laws of thermodynamics prevent you, who did not create the laws of science, from doing that. Man cannot create, because he is not able to make something out of nothing. At least, create is the closest word English has for it. A CreatOR cannot be creatED because he then has something there and thus is only building on his own creator's design. That is something from something, and not something from nothing.

I would love for a creator to tell me how to create. It's too bad you feel you can't thus you are not a creator. All these wanna be creators try and tell me something about something they actually know nothing about. All assumption. Take nothing and turn it into something, huh? How do you know this is how things were done? I think what you should be saying is you don't know how it all got here. But you are so egotistical that you have to know everything even if it's a statement of belief where it makes you look like you know something. Start with what you know. Not with what you don't know. God has a reference, the term and even how it's used, all the way to translation from another word. First God is a German word from, "gut" meaning good. The God is a frequently mistranslated as a singular when it is translated from a word that is plural, "Elohim." In the Concordance it is defined as, "These Beings." Let us make man. Who? God needs help doing something? Eloh is the singular form of Elohim. You can say Elo or Eli to call on the one in charge. Jesus didn't call on Theos, he called on Eli and not the whole group of Elohim.

Elohim created heaven and earth. Starting here, what does the translator mean, since we have to depend on him? Beings who have the technology to make black holes, Suns, Planets, Clone, etc., as implied in the bible mau have been MAKING not creating, for a very long time. If you start with what you know, you should realize that you know nothing about getting something from nothing. And just because you don't have the answer to how God got here definitely doesn't mean it's an ingredient for you know anything, let alone that God is just the one source responsible for all things and yet has human characteristics and attributes. The contradictions are obvious.

[zauhiyq]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Ok, you say this and in the next breath you start again citing the Bible, or some bastardization of it. I have read the Bible several times through and never seen the part where God falls off a chariot. Where is that, 1 Opinions 3:16?:eek:

Several times through huh? Well lets pack it up.

The bible also says god dwells in darkness, creates evil and does evil things.

God blew his top and killed fish in the sea because he was angry at man.

God lies.

and there are certainly all kinds of contradictions in the bible and we can deal with them one by one if you like.

[Nathan Struth]

Agreed, god doesn't exist. The burden of proof relies on the claim. Besides...what created god??? If god created the universe?? this doesn't make sense.

[iahag]

Quote by: zauhiyq The consequences of accepting contradicting ideas is that you may need to simply provide reason why you have. Not that you are right. I can tell that you are sincere. While you struggle with ideas on whether god has limits or not, you should be investigating why you ever had the thought. *wink* Since you are not expert on the bible nor do you intend or want to be. *smile*

The reason I ever had the thought is because I was exposed to it. It is only now as I mature that I really consider it. The reason I still allow it plausibility is because the argument unfalsifiable. My knowledge of the way people think, the primary determinants behind there character and all things attributed, are much greater now. I have found where I stand and shall continue to stand there. I pose to you this question, when did the human species consider god? Why is it only at this time they considered it?

I see how hard you are trying. And I see the excuses for not doing your homework as well. You don't consider it cause why? It's an _____ idea ___ notion of such a concept ______determined _____ by the individual maintaining the belief. A belief maintained by an individual, hmmm. Are you saying you don't consider the idea of a creator of our universe because you don't believe it or maintain the belief as you put it? What do you mean by not considering it? I mean what are you trying to say by saying you don't consider it? Seems you're saying a person who doesn't maintain the belief wouldn't consider it. lol, kind of tricky, huh? To me it's obvious that once a person has considered something enough to choose not to believe in it or maintain the belief, still places the realization that something has been considered. Do you mean you don't consider it any more? And if so, does it mean it's because you use to be the person maintaining the belief? I would want to know why the person was maintaining the belief in the first place. *wink*

Yes, I dont consider it anymore. I dont try to comprehend god because we have no 'frame of reference' to picture him, postulate him or by any means determine anything about him.

Moses following lights in a cloud is a mysterious guiding force. So is Urum & Thurum which is like dice or taret card reading. Or a staff turning into a snake or being in fire or not being burned. All these things are in the bible and people call them miracles. Falling and not getting hurt, drinking poison and not dying and even being able to predict the future by vision or dream. Even if what you claim is a modern theist view was accurate (and I think not), how would you know the foundation (reference) for the idea was solid or at least logical? As you see, even if you use to be atheist, it wouldn't help. Because it doesn't imply what kind of atheist you were or would have been. But going through that school as a sincere individual would help a lot! I know. *wink*

Going through that school? You calling me stupid buddy? Im currently studying at degree level at one of the best unis - for my subject - in the world.

Oh right, you mean american school . The place where religion is slowly being mandated.

[Agnos]

Quote by: Nathan Struth Besides...what created god??? If god created the universe?? this doesn't make sense.

That is a tired question. Creation and destruction rely upon change. Change relies upon time. Time is not an absolute, even in our universe. I realize that you're trying to show that the notion of God brings about an infinite regress, but it really doesn't if time itself is yanked from the equation.

[Aeris]

Quote by: zauhiyq Are you atheists? It only means that you don't believe in Greek Gods = Theos. A - theos.

If you are going to be discussing the etymology of a word, you might as well discuss the whole line.

True, θεός (theos) originally meant the Greek gods. Why? Because Greeks were the only ones who spoke Greek and of course their word would apply to their Gods. An atheist was one who did not believe in the Greek gods. But as the Mediterranean world became Hellenized, people began to use θεός to refer to a god - a general diety. Thus atheist evolved to mean "You don't believe in my God."

It was difficult for anyone of that era to believe that a God didn't exist. Even Middle Platonists and Stoics believe in the νους (nous) and the λόγος (logos) and that to become closer to God (this should be read as: to come to a greater understanding of the divine λόγος) one would have to study.

It wasn't until the mid-1500s that "atheist" came to mean "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

So, in essence you are right. But you are also entirely disregarding the evolution of language. Many words today have retained their original meaning, but at the same time many haven't. In modern times we must use modern defintions. We have a rich language - if you mean something other than the modern use of the word, describe the idea. But if you say "atheist" to someone, expect that they will think the modern defintion - because that is what the word means.

Quote by: zauhiyq If you depend on scholars for king James and others who still so called translate the word Elohim into a German word like God then you are still lost.

True, 'elohiym does not mean "God" in one summed up pretty package. I can mean:

1. (plural) 1. rulers, judges 2. divine ones 3. angels 4. gods 2. (plural intensive - singular meaning) 1. god, goddess 2. godlike one 3. works or special possessions of God 4. the (true) God 5. God

But in KJV of the Bible, the Plural intensive version of the word meaning "God" is used 2346 times, "god" is used 244, "goddess" is used 2 etc.

You also have to take into account that not only are you translating a word across languages AND language families but you're translating a paradigm. By the time Christianity and Judiasm had worked their way north into the Germanic lands, they had to translate an idea - a thought process.

Perhaps it does take a little away from the definition of 'elohiym to simply translate it as "God" - but one has to make do with the language one has. And for us "God" can mean any of those things that ''elohiym does.

That's the problem with functionalism as opposed to formalism. If you are not looking at the word in its lingusitc context let alone its historical context you won't grasp the full meaning of the world. Etymology is great until you disregard the history.

Quote by: zauhiyq You only think you know what you are talking about when you say either of, "There is a God," or "There is not a God." You haven't a clue as to what to do to get pass such influences.

Who does? Do you? Are you so arrogant as to say that you know exactly who and what god is or isn't? I do not mean to call you yourself arrogant, but it appears that you are in fact saying you have the answer. I could of course be incorrect.

Of course people can only guess - but even a guess can be right. Look at dthmstr - he has studied and studied his faith - I know he knows Greek, I'm pretty sure he knows Latin. He knows his history. And in combining his knowledge of all this, he puts his faith in context and knows it to be, at least for him, true.

Is it wrong for him to think, based on all he has studied, that he might be right? I don't think so, he's done as much studying as I have in other areas and he has come to a conclusion that fits his evidence.

Quote by: zauhiyq And you are going to tell me about a contradiction you see based on what you alone have been duped about. How can anyone have a belief concerning, "God?"

Its quite easy to have a belief. It is far more difficult to know.

Quote by: zauhiyq There are references. Things you should know! Especially if you're going to have a sincere attempt to debate about it. Where can I find reference that God is in no way associated with our reality. Notice in my question I did not say, "Elohim." Who are all these people that don't believe in God? lol. Or is it that they don't believe in the God spoken about in the bible?

Please, by all means. Direct us to these vast resources of knowledge that we may be educated!

Sarcasm aside, I would like to see these sources. Sources that are completely without bias in regards to God.

Quote by: iahag Thus, your implying that god and heaven exists in that which we can see, interpret ... etc. Yet this is in contradiction to the modern theists view that god is in no way associated with our reality other than 'a mysterious guiding force'. I believe this is 2nd contradiction. (Hell, if the word 'other than' wasnt so damn specific the statement would contradict itself.)

Iahag, I would like to mention that the view of God not associated with reality was actually an Early Christian view that faded with time. The Middle Platonists and Stoics I mentioned earlier in this post referred to the unssociated god as the νους - a being who was generally disinterested in human affairs. As Early Christianity drew heavily from the ranks of the Middle Platonists and Stoics (in addition to the Epicureans, who believed the same and the Jews) they brought their ideas to the faith.

Its really quite interesting.

[Aeris]

Quote by: Nathan Struth Agreed, god doesn't exist. The burden of proof relies on the claim. Besides...what created god??? If god created the universe?? this doesn't make sense.

The burden of proof lies on those who began the debate.

If we look at this from a historical aspect, the burden lies on the atheists. Why? Because true atheism arose in the Renaissance whereas the belief in God existed before. This makes atheists the claiments.

If we look at this threds title "Proof that God does not exist" the burden still lies on the atheists as the title is a atheistic claim in and of itself.

[iahag]

Quote by: Aeris The burden of proof lies on those who began the debate. If we look at this from a historical aspect, the burden lies on the atheists. Why? Because true atheism arose in the Renaissance whereas the belief in God existed before. This makes atheists the claiments. If we look at this threds title "Proof that God does not exist" the burden still lies on the atheists as the title is a atheistic claim in and of itself.

I know, I said before I want to change that .

[Fonceai]

@Nathan

You just claimed God doesn't exist.

The burden of proof is on you.

Saying "God doesn't exist" is a positive assertion... you're asserting the truth of God's non-existence.

Now prove it.

I always like when people don't know how to assign the burden of proof, or assume that by stating a negative they don't have a responsibility to prove their claim.

Aeris is dead on in her posts in this thread, from the origins of the word to pointing out the burden of proof issue.

[dreamer]

You must frist think what created you frist, was it not you heart that created you and not god. unless you are god, only one thing can create you, your heart the begining of life. Your heart is the begining of life does this mean you are you own god, if you can change my mind please do so.

Dreamer

[Fonceai]

I'd rather you change your spelling, first.

Care to elaborate more on that, or will it just be poetry?

[dreamer]

Quote by: Fonceai I'd rather you change your spelling, first. Care to elaborate more on that, or will it just be poetry?

Is it not you heart that starts your life on this world fonceai .spelling we must come from diffrent parts of the world.

Dreamer

[Fonceai]

It's not my heart that starts my life on this world?

Or it's my heart, and not God?

[dreamer]

Quote by: Fonceai It's not my heart that starts my life on this world? Or it's my heart, and not God?

Are your heart being wise just like a god. thinking your right, maybe you are right then again you might be wrong. which ones right fonceai are you a god or do you only think with your mind and not your heart.

[Fonceai]

Oh I know this question already.

Even if there is a Divine presence out there somewhere, in the meantime I am God of my mind and heart.

[dreamer]

Quote by: Fonceai Oh I know this question already. Even if there is a Divine presence out there somewhere, in the meantime I am God of my mind and heart.

IVE GOT ONE THING TO SAY WHATS IN OUR PAST IS OUR FUTURE AND WHATS IN OUR FUTURE IS OUR PAST THEN TURN IT AROUND AND YOU HAVE THE ANSWER.

DREAMER

[Nathan Struth]

lol eventually dreamer eventually. I prove that god doesn't exist simply because the idea of god is human. The stories about god in the bible and Torah (I was Jewish) often implies that he has human feelings. Now we all know that humans are mammals in the animal kingdom and are very unique for the amount of white matter they contain. But god is too human.

I used to call god the equivalence of time because time is something that's probably being percieved incorrectly. But now...seeing as how much sht there is in the world; I can't believe in a god anymore.

I can't believe how someone would let millions of people die under some assholes who should've been taken out of the picture.

I can't beleive there's still Darfur right now; dispite what I've done to try to stop it (sent letters to pres, talked about it, convinced people) and still sht don't stop.

I think most of us are just surrounded by everything good that we're blind to what goes on around us; like how an evil dictator sips his wine as his people starve...that's the only reason people still beleive in god; and because of what they can't explain, human existence, ect...


I also can't believe in god because science just has such more logical answers in my eyes. Evolution is >>>>>>over creatinism!