The Rise of Irrelevance: Religion vs. Implicit Morality

[Fonceai]

Quote by: samsara The question should be why someone can believe in a deity, with so little evidence, based on some old books which are filled with myths and distorted history.

That's a poor question.

What about the people who believe in a deity whose beliefs have nothing to do with "old books filled with myths and distorted history"?

[shield772]

Quote by: Agnos And how are you able to distinguish God from your own mind?

It's a different voice

[Agnos]

Quote by: shield772 It's a different voice

That is child's play for the human mind. I often sleep in complete silence, and I hear distinctly different voices all the time in my dreams. So, is that the best you got? Or is there any other way that you're able to distinguish God from your own mind?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: shield772 It's a different voice

Uuuuuuuh??? :eek: Are you being serious?

[Agnos]

I think he is.

[shield772]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Uuuuuuuh??? :eek: Are you being serious?

Dead Serious

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: shield772 Dead Serious

So..

Because I hear numerous voices, I can safely assume at least one of them is God? Does the easter bunny talk to me too? I mean, I DO hear quite a few voices. They MUST belong to someone else.

[Nathan Struth]

shield you really scare me...omg you scare me.

The kid with swords avatar made an awesome mathematical proof of the main question; I dont' think we're realizing that. Since we haven't defined a priority to X, X is undefined making X "indifferent" therefore not existing as any actual quantity (being priority). Therefore if you're indifferent to god, the opinion actually doesn't exist because it isn't there (thanks guy with sword)

Don't listen to the voices!!! reminds me of some scary movie I saw about voices tellign someone what to do. And I agree with you agnos, when I was young, (I'm still 15), I used to hear things in my sleep; I would hug my dog who had passed away in my dreams. I still do expand the limits of reality in my mind as I had a dream last night about the 1 out of 10^-40. about the planet being gone happening. Please let me connect this to my point:

When the Earth imploded in the black hole that CERN created; I was transported to a parallel universe. Part of the dream was actually taken from reality of a short story I read "A sound of Thunder" in English class.

In the parallel Earth, there were two moons. One was slightly larger than the other. I was subconsciously thinking of the probabilities of particle collisions and bece of S decay oscillation frequencies to Bece of S bar. There was a dark blue streak as it was nighttime. It was a quasar. A VISIBLE ONE, which truly denotes astronomical ignorance on my part. Also I looked back in my microscope of a slide of pond water I had examined 3 hours ago looking at small worms and bacteria. In the parallel world, the bacteria looked more like rods instead of little circles as I had usually seen.


But to the main point: In my dreams all of this happened, does this mean this is what the parallel Earth will be?!?!? Shield, are you able to denote the difference between reality and a dream? I never actually hugged my dog shield. I hugged her in my mind. SO...if this is in my mind, then I guess god exists in your mind; but isn't actually REAL. Therefore making god = dream. Please correct me and tell me what miracles you see every day shield?

Are you blind to genocide in Darfur? War? Poverty? Does god want this?!?!?

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Nathan The kid with swords avatar made an awesome mathematical proof of the main question; I dont' think we're realizing that. Since we haven't defined a priority to X, X is undefined making X "indifferent" therefore not existing as any actual quantity (being priority). Therefore if you're indifferent to god, the opinion actually doesn't exist because it isn't there (thanks guy with sword)

Thanks.

Math can prove sociological concepts if you can set the variables correctly and make them relative values, instead of absolute.

[Agnos]

We're not talking about math here, gentlemen. We're talking about how a human being might relate to the notion of God. And what we're really doing is playing semantics.

Rather than assign absolute values to a word :rolleyes: , let us just agree upon how that word is actually defined

Quote by: dictionary.com Indifferent - 1. without interest or concern; not caring; apathetic: his indifferent attitude toward the suffering of others. 2. having no bias, prejudice, or preference; impartial; disinterested. 3. neither good nor bad in character or quality; average; routine: an indifferent specimen. 4. not particularly good, important, etc.; unremarkable; unnotable: an indifferent success; an indifferent performance. 5. of only moderate amount, extent, etc. 6. not making a difference, or mattering, one way or the other. 7. immaterial or unimportant. 8. not essential or obligatory, as an observance. 9. making no difference or distinction, as between persons or things: indifferent justice. 10. neutral in chemical, electric, or magnetic quality. 11. Biology. not differentiated or specialized, as cells or tissues. –noun 12. an ethically or morally indifferent act. 13. a person who is indifferent, esp. in matters of religion or politics.

Where, within that defintion, does it suggest that indifference denotes nonexistence?
When I said that religion and the notion of God were irrelevant, I meant just that. In other words, God may in fact exist, but until God's existence (or nonexistence) can be established, then the notion of him is irrelevant. How does that not make sense? You may choose to use the word 'indifferent', but that is not what I intended it to mean. I meant 'irrelevant'.

[Fonceai]

@Agnos

Ever seen Pirates of the Caribbean?

There is a guy who says to a pirate: "You've got to be the worst pirate I've ever heard of."
And the pirate replies: "But you have heard of me."

That's a good example of the "math".

If you give a value to a variable, you are first declaring it. By doing so, you are acknowledging it.

If you don't give any value to it, you aren't acknowledging it at all.

While you choose not to see this from the math / computer programming perspective, they are sound principles.

The word "irrelevant", in this context, implies an established acknowledgement of religion.

If you were to say: "Christian morality is hypocritical and I think it's irrelevant." you are already acknowledging that there is such a thing as Christian morality and that it has significance of some kind. If it didn't, why call it irrelevant.

To truly dismiss Christian morality requires one to be indifferent to it... give it no value whatsoever.

It's "social math" and it isn't easy, but understanding this concept explains many other factors of how logic is present in personal beliefs, including the existence of God, love, hate, indifference, irrelevance, and belligerance.

[A_micheal]

I believe in God and Jesus. One reason is that any man made reason for our existance are laughable. We evolved from a sea of chemicals, or from a massive explosion where there was nothing to explode? How does that even begin to make sense? Now the idea that someone above our natural laws created us and our laws, makes perfect sense. And when someone acuses people as making up God as an excuse, an excuse for what? You dont think that we believers would enjoy having a few beers with our friends. Im sure the single christians would enjoy hookin up with a new girl every night, they shouldnt and most dont but none of us are dumb enough to not know that sex is a lot of fun. But we give all that up for the God that we believe in. So, is it an excuse to deny our flesh what it desires? Why would we want to [i]make up[i] an excuse to do that?

[A_micheal]

If you think God dosnt perform miracles today, look up Godsnewmiracles.com. It has plenty of documented miracles. Also I could name off a few from my own personal experience.

[Lullaby Chainer]

LMAO, welcome to volconvo.

Quote by: A_micheal I believe in God and Jesus. One reason is that any man made reason for our existance are laughable.

God is laughable. I could have told you that, but doesn't that contradict your complaints about science being too hard to understand?

Quote by: A_micheal We evolved from a sea of chemicals, or from a massive explosion where there was nothing to explode? How does that even begin to make sense?

It makes perfect sense, dear. Please try a little harder to learn and maybe you'll understand. School helps, or your local library. Internet, or, anything really. You'll understand once you learn!

Quote by: A_micheal Now the idea that someone above our natural laws created us and our laws, makes perfect sense.

Really? You haven't avoided any of your own road blocks with this nonsense. Where did God come from? If the forming of our simple minds is SO VASTLY improbable, what are the chances of an omnipotent, omniscient, mind existing? You can't just blow things out of proportion with the "God answer" to solve problems you just can't understand, dear.

Quote by: A_micheal And when someone acuses people as making up God as an excuse, an excuse for what?

Quote by: A_micheal Im sure the single christians would enjoy hookin up with a new girl every night, they shouldnt and most dont but none of us are dumb enough to not know that sex is a lot of fun. But we give all that up for the God that we believe in. So, is it an excuse to deny our flesh what it desires? Why would we want to [i]make up[i] an excuse to do that?

To face science. To live without excuses to be intolerant. To bear the burden of mortality. To escape reality. The list goes on and on.

Quote by: A_micheal You dont think that we believers would enjoy having a few beers with our friends.

Who the hell thinks that?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: A_micheal If you think God dosnt perform miracles today, look up Godsnewmiracles.com. It has plenty of documented miracles. Also I could name off a few from my own personal experience.

You do realize just as many, if not more, miraculous misfortunes occur too, right?

[shield772]

Quote by: Nathan Struth shield you really scare me...omg you scare me. The kid with swords avatar made an awesome mathematical proof of the main question; I dont' think we're realizing that. Since we haven't defined a priority to X, X is undefined making X "indifferent" therefore not existing as any actual quantity (being priority). Therefore if you're indifferent to god, the opinion actually doesn't exist because it isn't there (thanks guy with sword) Don't listen to the voices!!! reminds me of some scary movie I saw about voices tellign someone what to do. And I agree with you agnos, when I was young, (I'm still 15), I used to hear things in my sleep; I would hug my dog who had passed away in my dreams. I still do expand the limits of reality in my mind as I had a dream last night about the 1 out of 10^-40. about the planet being gone happening. Please let me connect this to my point: When the Earth imploded in the black hole that CERN created; I was transported to a parallel universe. Part of the dream was actually taken from reality of a short story I read "A sound of Thunder" in English class. In the parallel Earth, there were two moons. One was slightly larger than the other. I was subconsciously thinking of the probabilities of particle collisions and bece of S decay oscillation frequencies to Bece of S bar. There was a dark blue streak as it was nighttime. It was a quasar. A VISIBLE ONE, which truly denotes astronomical ignorance on my part. Also I looked back in my microscope of a slide of pond water I had examined 3 hours ago looking at small worms and bacteria. In the parallel world, the bacteria looked more like rods instead of little circles as I had usually seen. But to the main point: In my dreams all of this happened, does this mean this is what the parallel Earth will be?!?!? Shield, are you able to denote the difference between reality and a dream? I never actually hugged my dog shield. I hugged her in my mind. SO...if this is in my mind, then I guess god exists in your mind; but isn't actually REAL. Therefore making god = dream. Please correct me and tell me what miracles you see every day shield? Are you blind to genocide in Darfur? War? Poverty? Does god want this?!?!?

I see life, thats a miracle, and the dreams I have are not of alternate worlds they are of this one and they are of alternate future events depending on my actions. This is not a daily happening it just happens from time to time, the voice of God in my head is not when I am sleeping it is while I am awake, I will give you an example, I hear the voice telling me to turn down a different road than I always take (I have OCD I am a creature of habit) I do and later find I avoided what would have been a terrible accident. And wow 15 not sure I wanna take advice from a child, nothing personal.

[Jack]

One reason is that any man made reason for our existance are laughable.

God is a man made reason for our existence.

[Nathan Struth]

Shield

"He speaks to me mostly in dreams, when my mind and soul are most open to him. Sometimes though there isn't time for that so I hear his voice giving me warnings." and then you say in your next post
"the voice of God in my head is not when I am sleeping it is while I am awake," WTF??? Which is it shield? You scare me even more now that you say you hear god when you're awake! about the road, I can find a logical explanation for this. Perhaps you forgot that you heard something about an accident on that road earlier in the day. Or...you merely could have been lucky to make such a decision. It wasn't god's doing; it was yours. Life is a marical I agree with you, but...why can't there be life elsewhere. Also did god create death if he created life? Personally I don't believe in god; I take Isherwoods example. And I think as he's a cop; he's seen much much more shit than you have had to deal with. SO make up your mind; this allmost makes your argument invalid! It's saying that I like green beans and then the next moment saying. NO!! you're wrong! I don't like green beans!! Make up your mind,.... and tell me what you think. I'll listen to you

[Nathan Struth]

I take the cop thing back, you're a deputy officer nvm

[grendel_rex]

Quote by: Agnos Implicit morality, simply put, can be defined as a framework of principles present in any sufficiently intelligent animal as an expressed condition of its biological existence.

Implicit morality. Read: "enlightened self-interest". Biological imperative at the most negligible of removes. Basic brute necessity - with a smile, just to give it a genteel feel. The ethics of ambiguity - and the absurd hero.

Quote by: Agnos What role does religion – or more to the point, the notion of God – play in our lives today?

Well, one would have to start with a discussion of necessity and freedom, I suppose.