Cultivating your will

[Captain Chaos]

How do you do it?

How do you acquire self discipline if you currently lack it?

How do you alter yourself so that you come to want to do something that you previously did not want to do, even though you felt you should do it?

How do you eliminate desires you wish you did not have?

[Agur]

You need the help of God, then, don't you? In addition to prayers I think there are ways, even for those who do not believe, to help themselves a bit too..

Here's what I think:

Self discipline is learned throughout socialisation where parents/ other authorities are the teachers. Even adults can acquired self discipline through practice if fuelled by adequate motivation, especially if self discipline is not the goal in itself but rather a means to a higher end.

You can come to act in new ways e.g. if you discover a new goal you want to reach: Maybe you now do things you earlier thought you should have done because the motivation for some reason is stronger now than before?

Unwanted desires need to be repressed through self discipline, though they, to some extent at least, can be diminished if ignored.

.

[Captain Chaos]

Even adults can acquired self discipline through practice if fuelled by adequate motivation, especially if self discipline is not the goal in itself but rather a means to a higher end.

But, how does one acquire said motivation?

I am not necessarily lacking in it - it comes and goes. But I do not really understand the underlying mechanisms.

Maybe you now do things you earlier thought you should have done because the motivation for some reason is stronger now than before?

So, what is the key to acquiring such motivation?

Unwanted desires need to be repressed through self discipline, though they, to some extent at least, can be diminished if ignored.

It seems like repression works for some - but for othere they just wind up, well, repressed.

[Agur]

Quote by: Captain Chaos So, what is the key to acquiring such motivation?

I don't claim to have all the answers here, and I agree with you that too much repression is far from the best solution. I think the key to acquiring such motivation is: A New Goal.

Like being in love: If you feel that self discipline will help you in the quest for that special person, wouldn't you then automatically work harder to discipline yourself than before you met him/ her?

.

[Captain Chaos]

Yes...

But finding a new goal is about finding that towards which you already possess natural motivation. That's great, if it gets you where you want to go. The problem is that that does not always work.

Think about folks who can never complete a project because their motivation gives out half-way through. We tell them they need to be more disciplined, and finish what they started. That is kind of like telling someone that the way to swim is to jump in the water and swim. It doesn't really expose a methodology for accomlishing the goal.


So, how can one acquire motivation towards a goal for which the motivation does not come (or no longer comes) automatically?


I mean, there must be some way to cultivate the will - to make it bend to conscious intent at least a little. I have a few ideas on this, but they are minor things. What do you do, when you need to finish something but no longer feel like doing it?

[Agur]

Quote by: Captain Chaos But finding a new goal is about finding that towards which you already possess natural motivation.

Agreed. But motivation grows stronger with increased appreciation of the goal (if it's a goal worth reaching that is..).

Quote by: Captain Chaos Think about folks who can never complete a project because their motivation gives out half-way through. We tell them they need to be more disciplined, and finish what they started. That is kind of like telling someone that the way to swim is to jump in the water and swim. It doesn't really expose a methodology for accomlishing the goal. ... What do you do, when you need to finish something but no longer feel like doing it?

A little pressure won't always do the trick, but it won't hurt either. Pressure boosts motivation because we all need to be accepted by our peers. Right?

Come, let's hear your ideas!

.

[Captain Chaos]

Agreed. But motivation grows stronger with increased appreciation of the goal (if it's a goal worth reaching that is..).

So then, making an effort to appreciate the goal could increase motivation... I agree. It is a start, but it seems like such appreciation needs to be sincere. So, there must be some methodology of enhancing one's sincere appreciation. Maybe some sort of process of listing the things that are good about the goal?

Come, let's hear your ideas!

Appreciation was one of them, but it bears more fine tuning.

Celebrating the small victories is a similar idea.

Altering the details of the task to make it more fun is another.

Getting enough sleep is another.

Achieving the correct neurotransmitter balance is another.

Asking yourself "what will make me happy" and answering it honestly is another.

[Agur]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Appreciation was one of them, but it bears more fine tuning. Celebrating the small victories is a similar idea. Altering the details of the task to make it more fun is another. Getting enough sleep is another. Achieving the correct neurotransmitter balance is another. Asking yourself "what will make me happy" and answering it honestly is another.

Many useful techniques there. I particularly liked the "celebrating small victories" one. And of course making the tasks more fun where possible.

But I feel this list of problem solving skills (in addition to drugs and sleep) is just a bit off the mark, because these methods decrease the need for true self discipline rather than cultivating your ability to discipline yourself.

.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Find your local drug dealer and buy a few hits of LSD. Your will won't just be cultivated, it'll be a thriving garden of magic fruits and roots of logic. Trust me.

[Dadoo]

practice, practice, practice.

Perfect practice makes perfect praxis.

For some, the aspiration may be donned cosmetically, and the reasoning and validation will come from without, in the form of environmental feedback.

For some, the aspiration may be unreached due to personal conflict. Resolution depends then upon clarity of self-image.

Act like it, and you become it.
If it's already "you", just pull it up and start being true to self.

Nobody who is true to self and self-actualized practices discipline. It is a naturally obtained or gifted state.
Only one who does not believe thay are acting in their true nature, or one who is attempting to portray a proscribed personality needs discipline.

Discipline is the art of actualization.

Ye find what ye seek.

Seek better.

Ye seek what ye find.

Perfect!

Just keep practicing and realizations make their own sauce.
The reasons will come.
Be still and enjoy the ride.

Dadoo

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Agur because these methods decrease the need for true self discipline rather than cultivating your ability to discipline yourself.

Which brings us back to cultivating your will - to finding the motivation for self discipline. I think practicing appreciation may be the key, or at least one key. It certainly bears expounding upon.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Chaos How do you do it?

Question everything.

Quote by: Chaos How do you acquire self discipline if you currently lack it?

Question it. Why do you want self-discipline? What are the consequences of having it or not having it? Which outcome do you prefer?

Quote by: Chaos How do you alter yourself so that you come to want to do something that you previously did not want to do, even though you felt you should do it?

Question it. Why do you not want to do it? Why do you feel you should do it? What are the likely consequences of either action? Weigh it up and decide.

Quote by: Chaos How do you eliminate desires you wish you did not have?

I’d say you should snap out of it and learn to live with those desires. Desire is never wrong. Acting on desire can be. Again, you should question whether and why it is wrong. Always ask yourself why you are doing something and what the likely consequences will be for you. If you do that, the answers will become clear.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Bacon Question everything.

Good advice

Question it. Why do you want self-discipline? What are the consequences of having it or not having it? Which outcome do you prefer?

Many times, a person may want self discipline in order to complete a project. Yet, when the moment comes to actually act, they put it off, because the effort seems frustrating or like it will take too much energy.

Weigh it up and decide.

Therein lies the difficulty. Logic does not always work. Someone may weigh it out, decide that exercise is a great idea for them, and still find themselves lacking the motivation to follow up on their logical choice.

I’d say you should snap out of it and learn to live with those desires.

It really depends on the desire. I am fortunate in that I am not burdened with any particularly onerous desires. But, imagine being a pedophile. Even if you never act on it, what a terrible mental burden to live with.

I often become possessed of an overwhelming desire to eat muscadines! They are really good for you though, so I don't fight it :)

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Many times, a person may want self discipline in order to complete a project. Yet, when the moment comes to actually act, they put it off, because the effort seems frustrating or like it will take too much energy.

Then they simply have other, more important, priorities. Don't they?

Therein lies the difficulty. Logic does not always work. Someone may weigh it out, decide that exercise is a great idea for them, and still find themselves lacking the motivation to follow up on their logical choice.

We're not entirely logical creatures, are we?

Still, I think what you're really talking about is when people think, "Well, if I had the motivation, exercise would be a great idea for me." But they don't have the motivation in the first place, do they?

- Rob

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Chaos Many times, a person may want self discipline in order to complete a project. Yet, when the moment comes to actually act, they put it off, because the effort seems frustrating or like it will take too much energy.

I believe humans always do what they want to do. A human will never make a decision which he or she does not feel is the best one. Hence, a person only makes a decision which is bad for them if they don’t weigh up the consequences. In the case of procrastination, people will either procrastinate because they have not weighed up their different options properly or because they feel that the project in question is not worth their effort.

Quote by: Chaos Therein lies the difficulty. Logic does not always work. Someone may weigh it out, decide that exercise is a great idea for them, and still find themselves lacking the motivation to follow up on their logical choice.

If someone weighs up the advantages and disadvantages of exercise properly, they will reach a conclusion. If someone reaches a conclusion which they truly believe is the best one for themselves, I believe they will act upon it. Maybe I’m wrong about that but I can’t imagine acting any other way.

Quote by: Chaos It really depends on the desire. I am fortunate in that I am not burdened with any particularly onerous desires. But, imagine being a pedophile. Even if you never act on it, what a terrible mental burden to live with.

Well, in the case of paedophilia, I see no reason to repress the desire. Hide it from others if necessary but don’t try to deny to yourself that it exists. The desire in itself is not harmful to anyone, although it must be a huge burden given society’s attitudes towards paedophilia. The question is in finding the best way to relieve that burden. I don’t believe repressing it will do anything to relieve it.

I know a few people who openly admit that they are paedophiles and are campaigning for rights which are currently being denied to them. While I don’t necessarily agree with all of what they say, I think it’s admirable that they are able to talk so openly about something which is such a huge taboo and which unfortunately leads to a lot of abuse being directed towards them. Being able to talk about the issue and meet other people who feel the same is, I think, a much better way of dealing with the desire than trying to deny it exists.

[underbear1]

The major changes I've experienced, and seen changes in others behaviors comes from a 12 step background. You usually have to hit bottom , before you'll change, and you have to be willing to change. Sharing with others going through the same goals you seek helps, as does a higher power,(how ever you define that for yourself.) Realizing you won't make these changes PERFECTLY, you may slip, also makes the changes possible. I am co-dependant and I still may act out, but I catch myself sooner, and stop the behaviour. One thing 12 step gives you, you'll never make slips in ignorance, you know almost immediately when old demons pop up.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Autolykos But they don't have the motivation in the first place, do they?

Exactly. So, how do the acquire that motivation?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Bacon In the case of procrastination, people will either procrastinate because they have not weighed up their different options properly or because they feel that the project in question is not worth their effort.

Well, in my case, I can tell you that I have weighed things out and still made the wrong decision more than once. Why? Because my intellectual will was not in synch with my desires.

If someone weighs up the advantages and disadvantages of exercise properly, they will reach a conclusion. If someone reaches a conclusion which they truly believe is the best one for themselves, I believe they will act upon it. Maybe I’m wrong about that but I can’t imagine acting any other way.

Do you have any bad habits?

Being able to talk about the issue and meet other people who feel the same is, I think, a much better way of dealing with the desire than trying to deny it exists.

But, if they have the desire, but wish they did not have the desire, then they are in a state of internal conflict. This happens.

How about having the desire to rape women? If you were burdened with that, would you not want to get rid of it? Repressing it might just make it stronger, but if you had the ability to just make it go away, would you not want to?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Chaos Well, in my case, I can tell you that I have weighed things out and still made the wrong decision more than once. Why? Because my intellectual will was not in synch with my desires.

Could you give an example?

Quote by: Chaos Do you have any bad habits?

Well, I bite my nails which may be considered a bad habit. However, I don’t see any great reason to stop biting my nails and it would probably take some effort to kick the habit. I therefore don’t think it was the wrong decision to continue biting them.

Quote by: Chaos But, if they have the desire, but wish they did not have the desire, then they are in a state of internal conflict. This happens. How about having the desire to rape women? If you were burdened with that, would you not want to get rid of it? Repressing it might just make it stronger, but if you had the ability to just make it go away, would you not want to?

Of course. But there is, as far as I know, no way of making it go away completely. Of the options available, I think it's better to simply accept it.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Bacon Could you give an example?

Eating french toast at IHOP on Saturday.

Well, I bite my nails which may be considered a bad habit. However, I don’t see any great reason to stop biting my nails and it would probably take some effort to kick the habit. I therefore don’t think it was the wrong decision to continue biting them.

Well, some people have very bad habits. Do think that Smokers are unaware of the terrible consequences of their actions? And yet, they continue to smoke.

Of course. But there is, as far as I know, no way of making it go away completely. Of the options available, I think it's better to simply accept it.

Accept it, in the sense of accepting is exists, right? Not accept it, in the sense of going ahead and giving in to such desires.