Primer on Islamic "Anger" Towards the West

[JBG]

I was going to add this as a response on another board. I decided it merited separate discussion.

God, haven't you war mongers learned anything from Iraq? Bombing Iran for whatever reason would simply further inflame Islamacists and lead to even more terrorist attacks. Futhermore, when Iran eventually gets the bomb (it will eventually) the chances of them using it will be much higher. Negotiation is the only option available at this time.

A bit of history about the Muslims is in order.

During the pre-Muslim era, the wanton and vicious habits of the desert people of the area from Egypt through Saudi Arabia is well known, and memorialized in the oral history contained in the Bible. The stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, of the binding of Isaac (by negative implication the ritual child sacrifice among neighboring peoples), the purposeless plugging with sand of water wells dug by Abraham and Isaac are but some examples. The wickedness and idolatry prevalant in these areas, along with sexual perversion and violence, existed well before Islam and the fault for them must be laid at the door, not of Islam, but of local "cultures".

Islam's extremely violent start is also well known. Their virtually unhindered spread from the Mecca area to the Atlantic and to the borders of modern India occurred largely at the point of a sword. There were, during those early years, some constructive developments. In many areas, intellectually, they were ahead of Europe, then in the "Dark Ages". They were more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. At least "dhimmitude" allowed survival, under conditions of degradation and financial servitude.

Their predatory habits on the trade of other peoples is also well-known. One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East. Later, the Barbary Coast pirates and pirates off modern-day Somalia, all Musims, made theft from Europeans (and eventually Americans) and the "white slave" trade an art form. Then as now, it took the Americasns to crack down rather than pay tribute.

Since then, the Barbary Coast Pirates have morphed into OPEC (all of the money benefits the rulers, not the people), the UN, and disaster-milking. Remeber those pitiful faces on ads for charities after the Indonesia tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake? How much rebuilding do you think has really happened? Then as now, there are producers, and there are extorters and takers. After the Holocaust, an undisputed atrocity, its victims picked themselves up, and are now valuable contributors to the world wherever they live.

Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims? Instead of anger, you see the Michael Moores of the world prattling about "negotiations".

An old radio piece by Gordon Sinclair says it best:

Quote by: Gordon Sinclair The Americans Gordon Sinclair The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth. As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did. They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped. The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans. I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes. Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here. When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke. This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

Oiginal material by this poster

[Dadoo]

"" Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims? Instead of anger, you see the Michael Moores of the world prattling about "negotiations".""

The Jewish nation has American soldiery to retaliate for them. And we do!
We are their bombers. We are their assassins. The gas chambers were built in conjunction with American labor, parts and money, too. How strange.

We are attacking bazaars and innocents die daily in Iraq for the misrepresentation of the Muslim community.

Michael Moore is a red herring and probably funded indirectly by the American war machine. He is a sleight of hand provacateur and a liar.
Why was the air-space defense and NORAD stood down just before the insurance fraud of 9/11?
He is the "fresh" breeze of vanilla dissent to propagandize and anchor reverse propaganda through justifiable polarization.
He is not interested in negotiating, any more than you.

Yes, killing will make our world a better place. Because of this, America should be deeply honored.

Only a patriot would ask for negotiation and peaceful means of dispute resolution.
Only traitors send their sons and daughters to die while killing.
Hell is filling up. (special interest group, maybe?)

Does the sun ever tell the earth "You owe me one?"
Why then does America deserve so much praise? Are we looking for profit or peace?
Friends help friends. Why do we not receive help? We are not friendly. We are great poseurs, and we are not frindly as a country. We are FEARED. Why?
Is it a sheep's fault to fear the hungry wolf?
No.
Bad daddy = Bad daddy and the proof is in the puddin.'


Are we not as barbarous as the muslims? Until we lay down the sword, we are.

America doesn't need philosophical defense for it's travails or successes.
It needs friends around the world, better internal management and less poking into other human's affairs.

But, I hear what you said and there is some merit.
I still hear a very common and very base slant against the critics of our system in your rhetoric. Speech belies intention.

Best of luck. I hope you find a pleasant world to live in.
Dadoo

[Milton Bradley]

Wow!


Somebody was actually able to provolk a political response from Dadoo!


I bet that alone is worth a prize.

[rez]

Quote by: JBG Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims? Instead of anger, you see the Michael Moores of the world prattling about "negotiations". An old radio piece by Gordon Sinclair says it best:

yeah, who wants to negotiate, that requires communication. What good is communication when you can just kill the other person for not following the rules of the game.

The ability to negotiate should be considered the new way to solve problems, not war. War was a way to solve problems in the past because people could barely communicate let alone explain why an apple would fall off a tree. Why should the world continue solving problems with such a primitive solution? Are you a cave man?

[JBG]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Wow! Somebody was actually able to provolk a political response from Dadoo! I bet that alone is worth a prize.

Explain. I'm somewhat new here.

[JBG]

Quote by: rez yeah, who wants to negotiate, that requires communication. What good is communication when you can just kill the other person for not following the rules of the game. The ability to negotiate should be considered the new way to solve problems, not war. War was a way to solve problems in the past because people could barely communicate let alone explain why an apple would fall off a tree. Why should the world continue solving problems with such a primitive solution? Are you a cave man?

Who do we negotiate with? About what, the terms of dhimmitude, since they cannot stand a free land in their midst?

[rez]

Quote by: JBG Who do we negotiate with? About what, the terms of dhimmitude, since they cannot stand a free land in their midst?

And what does it look like to Muslims when an American army is guided by a Christian president that constantly bombs their land? We can not fight fire with fire.

Quote by: JBG Explain. I'm somewhat new here.

Daddoo usually responds with cyprtic poetic messages, this time he actually formulated a few complete sentences.

[Kamehameha34]

George Bush and the Muslim Extremists are trying to accomplish the same goal: For their enemy to succumb to intimidation. George Bush just has better toys.

[JBG]

Quote by: Dadoo Are we not as barbarous as the muslims? Until we lay down the sword, we are.

Normally, I don't just quote other articles, but this article says it all, and from the normally biased, anti-Israeli BBC:

Quote by: BBC Lynch mob's brutal attack By BBC News Online's Martin Asser In video footage that will remain etched on memories for a long time to come, Israeli TV broadcast the lynching of Israeli soldiers by a furious Palestinian mob in the West Bank town of Ramallah. The film, shot by an Italian television crew, showed dozens of enraged Palestinians storming the police station where the soldiers were being held after they had been captured by Palestinian police. Gruesome scenes were visible through an open window as the mob savagely beat and stabbed two or possibly three of the soldiers to death. Then a body was thrown from an upstairs window. The frenzied crowd clapped and cheered as more blows were rained down on the lifeless figure by the crowd outside. Rising anger Four men had been travelling in an unmarked car that was somehow apprehended on a street in Ramallah. At least two were killed a couple of hours later. The Israeli army said they were army reservists who had taken a wrong turning and blundered into Ramallah where their car was apprehended. Photographs show some of the doomed men were dressed in civilian clothes and one was photographed before his death wrapped in a black-and-white Palestinian head-dress. Anger had been brewing for the last two weeks which have witnessed the funerals of about 100 Arabs, nearly two dozen of them children, who have been killed in the violent uprising against Israeli occupation forces. But this outburst of fury apparently stemmed from rumours circulating through the mob that the captives belonged to the feared and hated undercover units of the Israeli army which dress as Arabs and strike in the heart of Palestinian towns. Earlier this week, the badly beaten body of a Palestinian, Issam Hamad, was found dumped on the outskirts of Ramallah. Palestinians blamed his death on Israeli settlers. Wrath of Israel Whatever the truth, the brutal death of these men - in full glare of TV - will have a lasting impact on the Israeli population and abroad. Their deaths were captured on film with the same power as the last moments of the short life of Muhammad al-Durrah, shot by Israeli troops 12 days ago as his father vainly tried to shield him with his own body. In the immediate aftermath of the killings the crowds on the streets of Ramallah were jubilant, even though they knew what was coming. Israel's overwhelming military might means that, unlike the Palestinians, it has the option of a dramatic and immediate response to those who cross its path. The inevitable wrath of Israel came just as noon prayers were being called. Wave after wave of missiles rained down on Ramallah, as well as Palestinian Authority installations in Gaza. The Palestinians called it war. An Israeli army spokesman said it was a limited operation intended as a "symbolic message" to the Palestinian leadership. Israel holds Yasser Arafat directly responsible for the deaths of its men because his policeman did not prevent, and in some cases actually took part in, the lynching.

[Dadoo]

Yes, there are many levels of awareness in our world.
Ignorance and innocence are never very far apart.
The palestinians have suffered pains untold.
Yet, vengeance breaks my bleeding heart.

True. those mid-Easterners sure take life WAY too seriously!
Jews and Palestinians alike. Oceans of blood, proof enough.
I am very glad to live peacefully and with little strife on a daily basis.

My Dad took his belt to my bottom when I was out of sorts as a child.
Perhaps the U.S. is justified in many levels with an aggressive policy.

My only complaint concerns internal strife and suffering.
If we care for our own impoverished and beleaguered populations, we may be a beacon worth emulating for this sad world.

My nagging question persists:
Why so much publicity for such a small region?

Jerusalem and religion, I believe.
Theocratic politicians.
"In God we trust, men are fools"

To trust each other might take a philosophical revolution.

be well,
dadoo

[JBG]

Quote by: Dadoo My nagging question persists: Why so much publicity for such a small region? Jerusalem and religion, I believe.

My own theory is that the world has difficulty with the concept of a Jewish state. The world can find room for infinite numbers of Islamic states. Just about every tribe or group gets one. In the case of Christians, few states are expressly Christian states since many if not most tolerate other religions' practice.

On the other hand, many have an ambivalent, love-hate view of a primarily Jewish state. On the one hand, they recognize that the Christian stewardship of Jewish safety left much to be desired. On the other hand, Jews are a foreign concept, at once worthy of love, envy and hatred.

[grandpa]

Quote by: JBG My own theory is that the world has difficulty with the concept of a Jewish state. The world can find room for infinite numbers of Islamic states.

Can you explain why anyone should support either a Jewish state or an Islamic one?

Grandpa h.

[JBG]

Quote by: grandpa Can you explain why anyone should support either a Jewish state or an Islamic one? Grandpa h.

It seems, from the events in world history, that the Christians and Muslims have lots of states, wither de facto or de jure. The Hindus have a state. The Buddhists effectively have several states. The Jews' trial run as guests of other states ended disastrously in Russia in 1892 with the Kisinev Pogrom, and November 9-10, 1938 with Kristallnacht, the "Night of Broken Glass".

Thus, the urgent need for a Jewish state, aside from Biblical imperative.

[grandpa]

Quote by: JBG It seems, from the events in world history, that the Christians and Muslims have lots of states, wither de facto or de jure. The Hindus have a state.

I don't think any government should proclaim it's people God's People or NOT God's people. There are multiple reasons to oppose theocratic tendencies.

Grandpa h.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: grandpa I don't think any government should proclaim it's people God's People or NOT God's people. There are multiple reasons to oppose theocratic tendencies. Grandpa h.

Grandpa h totaly agreed :)

[Dadoo]

Every one is God's people.
Why should anyone be unable to proclaim this?

As there may only be one people, there is one God.

Unless,
They represent the OTHER God!

Do you follow?
Lies are only true when believed. Otherwise they are meaningless proclamations.

Be well,
dadoo

[Abdullah]

Quote by: Dadoo Every one is God's people. Why should anyone be unable to proclaim this? As there may only be one people, there is one God. Unless, They represent the OTHER God! Do you follow? Lies are only true when believed. Otherwise they are meaningless proclamations. Be well, dadoo

For some reason Jews aren't able to grasp that concept...

[Nathan Struth]

I'm a Jew, I get what you're talking about. DOn't generalize like that.....please.....

I'm not against muslim. The question is what REALLY started this anger of these extremists? Can you answer that? We came into Iraq for oil. It was an invasion to find "Weapons of mass d" first, but then we need oil now. So what really started it all abdullah? Do you even believe the holocaust happened? Are you like the pres of Iran?

[JBG]

Quote by: Nathan Struth I'm a Jew, I get what you're talking about. DOn't generalize like that.....please..... I'm not against muslim. The question is what REALLY started this anger of these extremists? Can you answer that?

If you read my post, their "anger" goes way way back. My point is that Jews have a lot to be "angry" about as well; and handle it far, far differently.

Quote by: Nathan Struth We came into Iraq for oil. It was an invasion to find "Weapons of mass d" first, but then we need oil now. So what really started it all abdullah? Do you even believe the holocaust happened? Are you like the pres of Iran?

Huh?

[RickSp]

Alright, JBG. I have read your anti-Islamic screed. Other than your view that Muslims are evil, do you really have anything to say? I am impressed only by your post's ignorance and the intolerance, in virtually equal measure.

I did find several of your claims to be very funny.

One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East.

Ah, no. Shipping developed because the world is 3/4 ocean and you can carry far more on a ship than you can on a wagon. Archimedes not Mohamed, lead to the development of shipping and trade.

Since then, the Barbary Coast Pirates have morphed into OPEC

A lazy and rather stupid metaphor. Of the five founders of OPEC, none were on the Barbary Coast and only three of the five founding countries were Arab. OPEC has actually helped stabilize the oil markets and has helped to keep the price of oil down. OPEC has far closer ties to "big oil" than to the Islamists.

So JBK, other than to vent your bigotry, do you have an argument to make? You seem to lump all Muslims with suicide bombers of the Middle East. I guess you are unaware or unconcerned that less than 20% of all Muslims are Arab. The conflicts in the Middle East, like most conflicts around the world, are primarily political and social. Yes, there is a violent minority of jihadis who are motivated largely, if not exclusively, by religion, but to suggest or imply that they represent Muslims as a whole is simply foolish.