Your Religion

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo.

Have you considered my comments and question????? :)


Disinvented,

You have the right to choose that direction which you feel comfortable in following, or belonging. I congratualte you that you have seemingly found peace.

Are you attempting to proselytize ???

[white rice]

Disinvented,

Life itself goes against the general principles of entropy. Yes, our bodies are undergoing entropy as we speak, and as a greater system, entropy wins. But reproduction is a function that fights entropy as we speak.

Is that an illusion? What of history and science? What of evolution which adapts through the passage of time and is in of itself a living history of how things could have been before?

Just some random thoughts...

"You just told me that you need god because you would be worthless without the idea. You created your own imaginary personal version of god to fill that imaginary void."

i thought we went over this already. i decide/discover what is valuable and right. god gives me guidance and teaches me things through the world. i respect god for that, among other things. god isn't my imaginary friend or whatever you flagrantly assume i believe. don't rationalize my god just because you never interact with it.

yes i am definately still in touch with that person. i'd say she's my best friend in the world.

energy cannot be created or destroyed, and the supernatural is natural.

your organization of a church is noble. dominant world churches hold many back from true individual enlightenment. they are common pitfalls.

[white rice]

Originally posted by Bob_Dobbs,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bob_Dobbs,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> energy cannot be created or destroyed[/b]

That's an assumption based on natural observation.

<!--QuoteBegin-Bob_Dobbs,

, and the supernatural is natural.[/quote]

But you can't use that assumption to prove this.

[Disinvented]

Disinvented, You have the right to choose that direction which you feel comfortable in following, or belonging. I congratualte you that you have seemingly found peace. Are you attempting to proselytize ???

Absolutely not. I merely answered the original question, and offer it as information to anyone interested. Like I said, we don't recruit, but we have been known to invite, no proselytic (is that even a word?) sales pitch involved, a few kindren minds. I also didn't mean it to challenge anyone else's post.

i would never try to prove something like the supernatural based on mere speculation. the reasons i believe in/know about the 'supernatural' is because i have participated in it.

how i got there? it began with god, moved through philosophy, metaphysics, and theology, aided by ESP and reincarnation and other uncommon experiences with, to the discovery that god is living energy, which is the root of all life, to the discovery that this energy is controllable, or rather, i can channel it if it agrees to do what i request, sometimes with applicable repercussions and lessons in its mastery, which make it favorable to be 'good' and use this energy in a prudent manner.

[Disinvented]

Originally posted by white rice, Disinvented, Life itself goes against the general principles of entropy. Yes, our bodies are undergoing entropy as we speak, and as a greater system, entropy wins. But reproduction is a function that fights entropy as we speak. Is that an illusion? What of history and science? What of evolution which adapts through the passage of time and is in of itself a living history of how things could have been before? Just some random thoughts...

Procreation, evolution, etc:
"All instances of order are merely illusions resulting from transient patterns that inevitably decay, governed by physical laws."

Both of these can be explained via biology, which can be explained via chemistry, which can be explained via physics, which includes newtonian physics, general relativity, special relatively, quantum mechanics, and perhaps eventually superstring theories.

The fact that we can replicate and subsequently adapt over generations (by way of genetic mutations that occur during cellular meiosis, and sustained by way of natural selection) means nothing. These are just systems that developed, per the laws of physics. That is, of course, just an opinion, albeit based on sound scientific theory.

what if you had an experience in ESP or the 'supernatural'? do you discount them as hallucinations or coincidence or do you investigate this strange occurance?

what if you saw your past lives in a 'vision' and it struck personal truths to your core? would you throw it away? would you keep it a secret and wonder periodically all your life what it was? would you look at reincarnation acocunts differently?

what if you talked to god and god talked back? what if you cast a magic spell and reality bent to your will? how would that experiment and evidence change the way you view reality? science? religion? 'supernatural' events?

we can say one of two things. either i'm schizophrenic in a way that happens to coincide with remarkable occurances on a regular basis, or the things that i have spent the past 5 years and in some ways my whole life studying and experiencing are real.

disprove magic. disprove the experiences i have had. disprove me.

[white rice]

Originally posted by bob_dobbs+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bob_dobbs)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i would never try to prove something like the supernatural based on mere speculation. the reasons i believe in/know about the 'supernatural' is because i have participated in it. how i got there? it began with god, moved through philosophy, metaphysics, and theology, aided by ESP and reincarnation and other uncommon experiences with, to the discovery that god is living energy, which is the root of all life, to the discovery that this energy is controllable, or rather, i can channel it if it agrees to do what i request, sometimes with applicable repercussions and lessons in its mastery, which make it favorable to be 'good' and use this energy in a prudent manner. [/b]

Your own perspective is reality. You're trying to rationalize your accounts based on your perceptions. If you took some mind altering drugs and servered your current perceptions, then you'd probably attempt to ground yourself back into reality.

The catch in your second paragraph is proving it to others. Which if you are successful, they would for all intents and purposes try to ground themselves back into their reality.

If you make them believe and can repeat it over time, then you'd have starting point to the unnatural.

<!--QuoteBegin-Disinvented,


Procreation, evolution, etc:
"All instances of order are merely illusions resulting from transient patterns that inevitably decay, governed by physical laws."

Both of these can be explained via biology, which can be explained via chemistry, which can be explained via physics, which includes newtonian physics, general relativity, special relatively, quantum mechanics, and perhaps eventually superstring theories.

The fact that we can replicate and subsequently adapt over generations (by way of genetic mutations that occur during cellular meiosis, and sustained by way of natural selection) means nothing. These are just systems that developed, per the laws of physics. That is, of course, just an opinion, albeit based on sound scientific theory.[/quote]

Yes, but wouldn't a straight course towards entropy proclude the beginning of life?

Our bodies are very complex. Even a bacterial cell would take very extreme odds to assemble out of nowhere.

This isn't the case of spontaneous generation.

[Disinvented]

Originally posted by Bob_Dobbs, what if you had an experience in ESP or the 'supernatural'? do you discount them as hallucinations or coincidence or do you investigate this strange occurance? what if you saw your past lives in a 'vision' and it struck personal truths to your core? would you throw it away? would you keep it a secret and wonder periodically all your life what it was? would you look at reincarnation acocunts differently? what if you talked to god and god talked back? what if you cast a magic spell and reality bent to your will? how would that experiment and evidence change the way you view reality? science? religion? 'supernatural' events? we can say one of two things. either i'm schizophrenic in a way that happens to coincide with remarkable occurances on a regular basis, or the things that i have spent the past 5 years and in some ways my whole life studying and experiencing are real. disprove magic. disprove the experiences i have had. disprove me.

Personally, while I get a bit fecetious at times, and am amused at getting people on the defensive, I don't challenge your assertions at all. I just don't find any reason to believe them.

"The testimony of others does not outweigh the fact that I was not witness."

I fully recognize that you could be right, but like I said, I find no motivation to believe you.

[Gorgo]

I already did. It's up to you to prove that this is real.

Originally posted by Bob_Dobbs, disprove magic. disprove the experiences i have had. disprove me.

[PhanthomOps]

Bob_Dobbs,

I'm glad you have found a friend that you can relate to and be comfortable with. A relationship like this is a precious one.


Disinvented,

Message received and acknowledged. We all offer information to others for their consideration.

I'd like to welcome you to this site, and hope you will enjoy your time here. I find it enjoyable, interesting and educational.

Re: your last post to Bob_Dobbs - page 10, I appreciate your open attitude, and respect of other's opinions. Perhaps one day you will be a witness to an event.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by white rice, i would never try to prove something like the supernatural based on mere speculation. the reasons i believe in/know about the 'supernatural' is because i have participated in it.

The assumption that the supernatural or miracles are simply a manifestation of the natural is a valid assumption based on the predictions of science's ability over time to explain things that in the past were considered supernatural or miracles.

The claim of having participated in the supernatural as evidence is weak because of the fallibility of human perceptions. Many people have participated in magic shows and felt that they were experiencing the supernatural, but in reality it was an illusion or the word following miracle in the dictionary, mirage.

Yes, but wouldn't a straight course towards entropy proclude the beginning of life? Our bodies are very complex. Even a bacterial cell would take very extreme odds to assemble out of nowhere. This isn't the case of spontaneous generation.

No the violation of entropy does not apply here, because the sun and the internal heat of the earth provide more than enough energy. The problem of life and evolution is not a lack of energy. There are many known natural chemical reactions that provide for the transfer of energy in the inorganic and organic world.

[PhanthomOps]

shunyadragon,

You stated -
"The claim of having participated in the supernatural as evidence is weak because of the fallibility of human perceptions. Many people have participated in magic shows and felt that they were experiencing the supernatural, but in reality it was an illusion or the word following miracle in the dictionary, mirage."

Boy, you should get out more often and smell the roses. There are many physical healings that have occured despite Board Certified MD's stating there was absolutely no hope.

Whether or not you wish to believe or not does not diminish the fact that they did occur. However, if you wish to see through a glass darkly, and have tunnel-vision, so be it.

[white rice]

Originally posted by shunyadragon,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shunyadragon,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The assumption that the supernatural or miracles are simply a manifestation of the natural is a valid assumption based on the predictions of science's ability over time to explain things that in the past were considered supernatural or miracles. The claim of having participated in the supernatural as evidence is weak because of the fallibility of human perceptions. Many people have participated in magic shows and felt that they were experiencing the supernatural, but in reality it was an illusion or the word following miracle in the dictionary, mirage. [/b]

That quote was originally Bob's.

I agree, perception is our tie to reality. Maybe I'm arguing semantics here, but the concept of supernatural would mean performing conditions at will that doesn't follow the laws of reality, like people flying on their own or another comic book superpower.

<!--QuoteBegin-shunyadragon,

No the violation of entropy does not apply here, because the sun and the internal heat of the earth provide more than enough energy. The problem of life and evolution is not a lack of energy. There are many known natural chemical reactions that provide for the transfer of energy in the inorganic and organic world.[/quote]

I see entropy as eventual chaos instead of organized energy unraveling into heat. Life itself is order. If the greater system is gravitating towards heat and chaos, then wouldn't pockets of extremely organized and elegant matter be an extraordinary feat?

My general point concerns those pockets of order found in a larger system of disorder. Entropy always wins, but life is fighting it through order. If you consider entropy philisophically, even if nature is going towards chaos, isn't the fact that we're alive mean that we have something to strive for?

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, shunyadragon, You stated - "The claim of having participated in the supernatural as evidence is weak because of the fallibility of human perceptions. Many people have participated in magic shows and felt that they were experiencing the supernatural, but in reality it was an illusion or the word following miracle in the dictionary, mirage." Boy, you should get out more often and smell the roses. There are many physical healings that have occured despite Board Certified MD's stating there was absolutely no hope. Whether or not you wish to believe or not does not diminish the fact that they did occur. However, if you wish to see through a glass darkly, and have tunnel-vision, so be it.

Smell the roses all the time. S*** grows great roses.

No problem, I still consider them natural. We may not understand them, but they are natural and not supernatural.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by shunyadragon,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shunyadragon,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The assumption that the supernatural or miracles are simply a manifestation of the natural is a valid assumption based on the predictions of science's ability over time to explain things that in the past were considered supernatural or miracles. The claim of having participated in the supernatural as evidence is weak because of the fallibility of human perceptions. Many people have participated in magic shows and felt that they were experiencing the supernatural, but in reality it was an illusion or the word following miracle in the dictionary, mirage. [/b]

Originally posted by white rice+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (white rice)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> That quote was originally Bob's. I agree, perception is our tie to reality. Maybe I'm arguing semantics here, but the concept of supernatural would mean performing conditions at will that doesn't follow the laws of reality, like people flying on their own or another comic book superpower. [/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-shunyadragon,@

No the violation of entropy does not apply here, because the sun and the internal heat of the earth provide more than enough energy. The problem of life and evolution is not a lack of energy. There are many known natural chemical reactions that provide for the transfer of energy in the inorganic and organic world.[/quote]

<!--QuoteBegin-white rice
I see entropy as eventual chaos instead of organized energy unraveling into heat. Life itself is order. If the greater system is gravitating towards heat and chaos, then wouldn't pockets of extremely organized and elegant matter be an extraordinary feat?

My general point concerns those pockets of order found in a larger system of disorder. Entropy always wins, but life is fighting it through order. If you consider entropy philisophically, even if nature is going towards chaos, isn't the fact that we're alive mean that we have something to strive for?[/quote]

To get in sync with your view I would have describe the energy of existence as having physical, and spiritual atributes which is okay. In this view, though the same laws and conditions apply for both the spiritual and physical aspects of existence. In reality they are one and inseperable as creation is one and inseperable.

The theory of entropy of the physical existence may apply to intangible side of the existence. Being alive spiritually or philisophically and striving for anything has little relationship and meaning when it comes to the role of energy relationships in the universe and entropy in either the physical or spiritual aspects of existence.

Philisophically I beleive in 'Go with the flow, the river knows.' Fighting the river achieves nothing. The river of life flows to a vaste sea and returns to the mountains again to flow in the river again. If you want to describe the spiritual aspects of existence in terms of energy relationships and entropy I believe the same laws apply. The vaste resorvoir of spiritual energy in the realm of existence far exceeds any forseeable condition approaching entropy.

We are not in a system of disorder with pockets of order. The universe and the solar system are in a highly ordered state. The eventual chaos of entropy is something we can only visualize in theory or see demonstrated in very small examples of closed systems. The present solar system is a closed and very orderly system and has enough energy that the approach of anything close to a state of entropy is billions of years away. If you view existence in terms of there being a creator, that would be an infinite source of energy and entropy would nerver be achieved.

Organized energy does not unravel into heat. In the concept of entropy order does become disorder with a lose of energy, but heat is a form of energy.

The heat from the thermoneuclear furnace the sun and the furnace inside the earth are the sources of energy for life and evolution. The energy transfer from the inorganic to the organic world takes place through simple chemical reactions like oxydation and reduction.

[Gorgo]

You'll want to read up on the placebo effect.

http://skepdic.com/placebo.html

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Boy, you should get out more often and smell the roses. There are many physical healings that have occured despite Board Certified MD's stating there was absolutely no hope.

[mrmufin]

Originally posted by dotComa, What is your religious affiliation, why, and what conclusions have you come to about your own religion. Do you accept other ones? If not why...

I have no religious affiliation because I have no belief in god(s).

As for my conclusions, I'll try to be brief and far from all-inclusive. Humans have the capacity to conceptualize things beyond the realm of detectability and independent verification. Some things, such as hair, hydrogen, tomato soup, low levels of electromagnetic inductance, the sun, and radioactive decay are detectable and withstand impartial verification. Other things, such as love, memories, axiomatic systems, trust, apathy and jealousy exist as mental constructs and processes which elude objective measure. Or, if I step on the bathroom scale right now, my clothes will affect the displayed weight but how much love I have for my wife or my knowledge of calculus will not affect the weight. In the realm of credible evidence, detectability which is not contingent upon emotional state, political party, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, race or nationality trumps other evidences.

Thus, "what the speedometer indicates" is generally more reliable than "how fast the telephone poles appear to be going by". In cases where the readings from the radar gun and the speedometer are at odds, the possibility that neither is accurate must be considered. Any inherent innacuracies in the speedometer and/or the radar gun do not validate the statement, "the telephone poles appeared to be going by pretty fast". When attempting to form conclusive statements about gods, I must consider their conspicuous nondetectability. I must also consider the possibility that the described gods exist purely as mental constructs of believers, but may be as real to the believer as their love for a spouse. Ultimately, it appears that beliefs are useful for describing that which can't be impartially verified, which is why we need not "believe" in hydrogen. If a specific god was as detectable as hydrogen, belief would not be required. While my love for my spouse is certainly very real to me, and may be completely undetectable by any objective means, my spouse is most certainly and specifically identifiable.

As far as my acceptance of "other" religions... hey, if you believe that one or twenty gods exist, and elect to congregate with others who share your beliefs, fine. Have fun. But assume my non-participation until such time as the appropriate god makes a personal impact on me; any god that couldn't do that much is apparently very indeifferent about me.

Regards,
mrmufin

[Paul]

RELIGION = DIVISION, and WAR.

LOVE = UNITY, and PEACE.

Peace be with you, Paul