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ZNFYRH · Apr 3, 2007, 02:31 pm

pikatore,

I'll ignore your sarcasm (unnecessary but not outside the rules) and focus on the fact you gave contradictory answers to your questions.

Nothing inspires you, so how can you still feel inspired.

Nothing gives you hope, but you can still feel it.

Where do those feelings of hope and inspiration come from?

I really question how you don't feel alone, but nothing gives you that feeling.

How is that possible?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

pikatore · Apr 3, 2007, 02:36 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Where do those feelings of hope and inspiration come from?

Within.

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Do you see where I'm going with this?

No.

ZNFYRH · Apr 3, 2007, 03:06 pm

Within?

Within what?

From where?

Hope and inspiration have to come from somewhere... "within" doesn't make much sense.

The point of this is that you brashly comment about those who might find that inspiration and can speak of it.

Yet you can't do so yourself.

Sadly ironic that you criticize those who might be able to speak on something about which you can't seem to give a clear answer.

pikatore · Apr 3, 2007, 03:28 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Hope and inspiration have to come from somewhere... "within" doesn't make much sense.

And 'god' makes any more sense? Come on.

The point of this is that you brashly comment about those who might find that inspiration and can speak of it.

Suicide bomber have religious inspirations. What is your point?

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Sadly ironic that you criticize those who might be able to speak on something about which you can't seem to give a clear answer.

Within is a clear enough answer. Unlike you, I don't fly it into the clouds.

ZNFYRH · Apr 3, 2007, 03:42 pm

Actually, "God" makes more sense than "within."

If someone answers "God" and I ask, "What does 'God' mean?" they usually answer.

So now I ask you, "What does 'within' mean?"

pikatore · Apr 3, 2007, 03:49 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Actually, "God" makes more sense than "within."

If someone answers "God" and I ask, "What does 'God' mean?" they usually answer.

So now I ask you, "What does 'within' mean?"

uhhh... it means from inside.

The realisation of potential doesn't have to come about by praying to some dude in the sky.

I can hope, be inspired, and feel at ease with the world, knowing im not alone, without having to subscribe to religion.

You act as if it is necessary.

ZNFYRH · Apr 3, 2007, 04:21 pm

Quote:

Quote by: pikatore

I can hope, be inspired, and feel at ease with the world, knowing im not alone, without having to subscribe to religion.

Then how do you do those things? Just tell me what it is inside you that inspires them.

pikatore · Apr 3, 2007, 04:31 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Then how do you do those things? Just tell me what it is inside you that inspires them.

I don't know. YET, I'm not desperate enough to go running for crazy-arse answers. Not yet, anyway.

ZNFYRH · Apr 3, 2007, 04:42 pm

pikatore,

So let me get this straight...

You feel it's acceptable to tell someone who is able to discuss and elaborate on inspiration and hope that they are outside reality, when you can't even define your own reality?

Maybe your problem is that you direct your angst at those who are doing something that you can't do.

pikatore · Apr 3, 2007, 04:54 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

You feel it's acceptable to tell someone who is able to discuss and elaborate on inspiration and hope that they are outside reality, when you can't even define your own reality?

Oh no, I can do it quite easily. I used to consider myself Christian. I felt that whole warm feeling you get, etc. But I realised slowly that intellectual honesty to oneself is more important than satisfying my emotional needs.

My perception of reality includes the acknowledgement that there are some things that will always remain mysterious not to myself, but to everybody. No amount of wishful thinking or blind faith can change that.

My belief is not one of denial, but one of skeptisicm. Skeptisicm and critical analysis of the information that is presented is how humankind has moved forward, not prayer.

Captain Chaos · Apr 3, 2007, 05:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Pikatore

Skeptisicm and critical analysis of the information that is presented is how humankind has moved forward, not prayer.

I am a member of humankind. Prayer once resulted in my being healed from a debilitating illness that was just making life impossible for me. So, for at least one member of humankind, prayer is, in small part, how I moved forward.

Thinking things through has helped for most things in my life, though.

pikatore · Apr 3, 2007, 05:41 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

I am a member of humankind. Prayer once resulted in my being healed from a debilitating illness that was just making life impossible for me. So, for at least one member of humankind, prayer is, in small part, how I moved forward.

.... and of course, it was the prayer that healed you. Not your body's immune system, or the drugs you may of taken.

Captain Chaos · Apr 3, 2007, 06:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: pikatore

.... and of course, it was the prayer that healed you. Not your body's immune system, or the drugs you may of taken.

It was a neurological problem. The only drug that controlled it was dextromethorphan. Unfortunately, dxm was also causing mania and depression - really bad depression.

After praying, I had a dream in which a beautiful woman came and reached inside me and fixed things up.

I had been dealing with this for like a year. After the dream, I got better very quickly. Much of it was gone the next morning, most was gone within a week, and it was fully gone within a month.

Yes, prayer led to this. I cannot prove causation, but then I cannot prove causation for some other hypothesis either.

You do not have to like it, but the fact is, prayer moved me forward. Life is not always as clear cut as we would like it to be.

pikatore · Apr 3, 2007, 09:18 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

You do not have to like it, but the fact is, prayer moved me forward. Life is not always as clear cut as we would like it to be.

Well, whatever rocks your boat.

namguy69 · Apr 3, 2007, 11:44 pm

Quote:

Quote by: iclaudius

Meanwhile, I extend my invitation once again to anyone who cares to listen...

that saying you listed is par-excellent...

Century 25 · Apr 4, 2007, 01:30 am

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

I think the belief is at the core of certain actions, and the belief is self perpetuating. That is, part of the belief is that it is essential to threaten others with eternal torture to scare them into believing.

Gullible types fall for this.

I just really hate that kind of manipulation.

lol.. you lasered right in on it CC..:)

The world is forever doomed to a Sisyphean like servitude to a non-existant deity..

**Jack** · Apr 4, 2007, 01:52 am

Quote:

After praying, ...

You failed to describe the nature of the prayer. Was it the traditional, "talk to god" kind? Did you conceptualize a god while you were praying? If not, isn't it possible you experienced an episode of positive thinking that motivated your immune system to work overtime?

I don't believe we know enough about the interactions between our bodies and minds to be able to say, "it couldn't have been that, it had to be god". I don't see a reason to suppose the supernatural.

I can't argue the results with you, they're obviously positive. It's the causation we may disagree about.

pikatore · Apr 4, 2007, 06:49 am

Heard of the placebo effect, CC? It works not just with prayer.

ZNFYRH · Apr 4, 2007, 09:16 am

Captain Chaos,

You keep insisting on your generalizations. You are upset over actions. Automatically tying belief to action is your problem, and that's what you need to learn to stop doing.

You already identified that you have a problem with what you're doing, and now here is your "problem". You are jumping to conclusions / making assumptions / generalizing / pigeon-holing. As others have said, you need to give people a chance and not be so critical, especially when their justification for faith might be a situation nearly identical to what happened to you.

Isherwood,

On the one hand, you post is quite valid; it's very possible that feeling inspired somehow lead to a psychosomatic side effect.

On the other hand, I get the impression that you want for it to not be God-related, so you're willing to give any other explanation to fill the gaps. There really should be a Science of Gaps fallacy of some kind.

pikatore,

Placebo effect is accurate, but it relates to the psychosomatic effect Isherwood talked about.

Captain Chaos · Apr 4, 2007, 11:52 am

Quote:

Quote by: pikatore

Heard of the placebo effect, CC? It works not just with prayer.

I have heard of it and read up on it quite a bit.

The term 'placebo effect' covers many things. The event in question could be placebo effect. I see no reason to assume that, though. Regardless, it was precipitated by prayer.

I do not claim that my experience was a genuine encounter with an angel, because I have no way to confirm that. I will say that it seemed that way, but such seemings can be easily fabricated by the mind.

The point is, prayer is what set it in motion. Prayer worked, even if it just enabled access to some type of placebo affect that all my other efforts failed at.

Apr 4, 2007, 06:49 am	#1418 (permalink) (top)
pikatore A Celestial Monkey Location: In England Posts: 1,613	Heard of the placebo effect, CC? It works not just with prayer. "Cheese is a kind of meat, a tasty yellow beef" - Mighty Boosh Economic Left/Right: -0.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.38

Apr 3, 2007, 02:31 pm	#1401 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	pikatore, I'll ignore your sarcasm (unnecessary but not outside the rules) and focus on the fact you gave contradictory answers to your questions. Nothing inspires you, so how can you still feel inspired. Nothing gives you hope, but you can still feel it. Where do those feelings of hope and inspiration come from? I really question how you don't feel alone, but nothing gives you that feeling. How is that possible? Do you see where I'm going with this?

Apr 3, 2007, 03:06 pm	#1403 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Within? Within what? From where? Hope and inspiration have to come from somewhere... "within" doesn't make much sense. The point of this is that you brashly comment about those who might find that inspiration and can speak of it. Yet you can't do so yourself. Sadly ironic that you criticize those who might be able to speak on something about which you can't seem to give a clear answer.

Apr 3, 2007, 03:42 pm	#1405 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Actually, "God" makes more sense than "within." If someone answers "God" and I ask, "What does 'God' mean?" they usually answer. So now I ask you, "What does 'within' mean?"

Apr 3, 2007, 04:42 pm	#1409 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	pikatore, So let me get this straight... You feel it's acceptable to tell someone who is able to discuss and elaborate on inspiration and hope that they are outside reality, when you can't even define your own reality? Maybe your problem is that you direct your angst at those who are doing something that you can't do.

Apr 4, 2007, 09:16 am	#1419 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Captain Chaos, You keep insisting on your generalizations. You are upset over actions. Automatically tying belief to action is your problem, and that's what you need to learn to stop doing. You already identified that you have a problem with what you're doing, and now here is your "problem". You are jumping to conclusions / making assumptions / generalizing / pigeon-holing. As others have said, you need to give people a chance and not be so critical, especially when their justification for faith might be a situation nearly identical to what happened to you. Isherwood, On the one hand, you post is quite valid; it's very possible that feeling inspired somehow lead to a psychosomatic side effect. On the other hand, I get the impression that you want for it to not be God-related, so you're willing to give any other explanation to fill the gaps. There really should be a Science of Gaps fallacy of some kind. pikatore, Placebo effect is accurate, but it relates to the psychosomatic effect Isherwood talked about.