Your Religion

[Wirya]

Hello. I've joined Volconvo since last year I think, but this is my first post here.

My religion is Islam.

Err I dunno what else I should say here =p

[Kuldeep]

O.K B.G! Agreed you took christian God as basis. Repeatedly you say you have been created as an evil person by that God. Does this mean you are always committing sins only by way of your all actions. That you have never done single good action during your entire life. I am sure it is not that way. You have been doing good as well bad actions depending on the situation. You are doing these actions because you like your association with the drama at that point of time. Therefore, since you like the actions, right or wrong, you get rewarded or punished later depending on your action and your acceptance of being a party to that action. As you sow so shall you reap!:)

So called God's work is complete till he made you with certain general properties both good and bad. After that on birth, it your training & mastery of handling your mind which is responsible for on wards journey of life.

[WakeTFU]

Quote by: Jagged Im pretty sure Ism = agnostic. :( Sorry to burst your bubble Mr. Unique :-P

Except that I KNOW there's a god...(god is just a word by the way, it means 'higher power')

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Jagged But you need to realize that you can't use the Bible as evidence for believing the bible.

That is a logical fallacy only in this world. The fact is the Bible backs itself up through everything we see around us, as explained through the point of view told by the Bible. It is not only the Bible which does this, but it is the single source which allows an understanding of everything else to become known, thereby allowing everything in existence to backup everything in existence.

A lot of Christians, not pinpointing you, are so used to solely following the bible and using it to settle all arguments that the idea of not being able to use the bible as their argument for something seems absurd.

The Bible tells that those who have not come to an honest understanding of the Bible cannot fathom its deep meanings. They are not of this world. They cannot be reasoned into. Those who have faith have made the leap from the physical into the spiritual and are able to understand the deeper meanings in the Bible, which is when they become clear.

To use the Bible's internal text as a reason to convince anyone they should believe in the Bible is, as you say, not correct. But to understand why the Bible is correct, one must study the Bible and gain that spiritual level of understanding through faith. Once that is achieved or arrived at, then the Bible's teachings will serve not only as a single-source of knowledge and understanding, but rather as a jumping-off point for looking at everything you see around you as confirmation of its teachings. That even includes physical things, like why the stars are there, why the Earth is here, why things work the way they do, such as plants and growing and harvesting and all of it.

The Bible is also confirmed in one's spirit once a person believes.

For example, if you’ve seen the movie "Saved," whenever a teacher tells a student to do something, all she/he would pretty much argue is "thats what Jesus wants you to do and what the bible tells you to do." Because all of the students are all Christians, they obey with acrimony. It's simply how things are settled. However, when one tries to quote the bible to a person who doesn't believe in it, in order to "prove" to them that they should believe in the bible, the Chrisitan forget sthat they can't use the words from the bible to corroborate their statements.

Someone quoting scripture to try to convince someone who is not a believer will not work. Even the Bible says we must convince those who are nonblievers without using the word.

But for believers, what the Bible says is definitive. It is open to interpretation and every person must choose for themselves what they will believe, or how they will apply it. But the Bible does ask all believers to come together and commune and listen to God and talk and share and explain and basically communicate in many ways to make sure they are on the right path.

Living a Christian life is not only studying the Bible, it is practical application. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life". Everything He stands for is all that we need to survive. For believers walking on faith, that statement is completely true. And for nonbelievers reading this, the fact remains that if they honestly study the Bible, they will come to a spiritual belief and understanding and it will all become clear.

Ask any former nonbeliever.

Thus, just stating "the bible tells you do believe in Jesus" really doesn't connect or apply to anybody who isnt a Christian on these forums, and seems relatively absurd to us. So don't quote the bible or what Jeus wants us to do in order to get us to believe in God.

I agree. How much scripture have I quoted in any of the threads I've posted in? Only a couple to back up the point someone else (a nonbeliever) made in contrasting my argument.

Also, did youre post get deleated by a moderator? Or did you accidentally or purposely deleate it?

I may have accidentally deleted it. I have been in contact with Jason (the site owner) and he can't find it. The response I posted above where I wrote "(Jagged wrote)" was a response to that post I wrote, which is why I had to manually type in the "(Jagged wrote)" part.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: RickHodgin That is a logical fallacy only in this world. The fact is the Bible backs itself up through everything we see around us, as explained through the point of view told by the Bible. It is not only the Bible which does this, but it is the single source which allows an understanding of everything else to become known, thereby allowing everything in existence to backup everything in existence.

???

How does one argue with deliberate irrationality?


I will try using deliberate irrationality in response.


No, Rick. The Bible is a book inspired by demons to inspire humans to war with each other. This is self evident by the fact that the Bible has a pretense towards good, but actually guides people towards evil. God created you with an innate sense of right and wrong. Yet, the Bible teaches you to ignore your god-given conscience, and instead do whatever the Bible tells you.

Any act, no matter how horrendus, can be justified under the pretense of saving souls from eternal torture.

Sorry Rick, but you are under the influence of demons, who have wormed their way into your heart while you studied scripture.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Rick H That is a logical fallacy only in this world. The fact is the Bible backs itself up through everything we see around us, as explained through the point of view told by the Bible. It is not only the Bible which does this, but it is the single source which allows an understanding of everything else to become known, thereby allowing everything in existence to backup everything in existence.

Sounds like you are saying that you have to believe in order to believe. That if you don't believe, then you did not really understand the Bible to begin with.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Sounds like you are saying that you have to believe in order to believe. That if you don't believe, then you did not really understand the Bible to begin with.

There is a leap which occurs, one given by God, from the point prior to having faith to the point after which one does have faith. From that point after, which comes from reading, studying and understanding the Bible, things are seen in a new light and there is no substanitive doubt in the believer's mind about any of it. It is more real than this world, and it changes one's perspective so they cannot help but see this world differently.

From that point of view, man's reason, man's knowledge, man's thoughts, man's drives, man's desires, and so on, are all foolishness, when they don't lead toward a closer relationship with God.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos No, Rick. The Bible is a book inspired by demons to inspire humans to war with each other. This is self evident by the fact that the Bible has a pretense towards good, but actually guides people towards evil.

That statement exhibits a complete lack of understanding regarding the teachings of the Bible.

God created you with an innate sense of right and wrong. Yet, the Bible teaches you to ignore your god-given conscience, and instead do whatever the Bible tells you.

The Bible is a physical, viable, tangeable writing containing a manifestation of that which we have written upon our hearts. We desire to do things in the flesh, but if our desires (and subsequent actions) are not backed up by the word of God (the Bible), then they should questioned greatly before proceeding.

The Bible sums up God's instruction for us here on Earth. It is a book of life. All we have to do is believe and walk in its teachings. When we are not doing that, we are placing our personal beliefs ahead or above those of God's, and we are substituting ourselves and our beliefs for the trueness of God. It is for that reason that He will allow those who do not accept Him to be eternally damned. It is their choice, and they are making it daily.

The realities of biblical subtlety are of significantly greater importance than even overt worldly actions. The smallest portion of the Bible leads only to life. Everything we pursue in the flesh leads only to death.

Any act, no matter how horrendus, can be justified under the pretense of saving souls from eternal torture.

That's a stretch from what I said, but it is fundamentally correct. Our destiny is not this flesh-and-blood existence. This fleshy existence is a way station (one caused by Adam's original sin) on the path to our final destiny which is an eternal life. It will either be lived with God, or without God. We are choosing our destiny right now.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: RickHodgin There is a leap which occurs, one given by God, from the point prior to having faith to the point after which one does have faith. From that point after, which comes from reading, studying and understanding the Bible, things are seen in a new light and there is no substanitive doubt in the believer's mind about any of it. It is more real than this world, and it changes one's perspective so they cannot help but see this world differently. From that point of view, man's reason, man's knowledge, man's thoughts, man's drives, man's desires, and so on, are all foolishness, when they don't lead toward a closer relationship with God.

I am sorry Rick, but this really sounds like an intellectual cop out to me. People claim the exact same sort of divine inspiration for other religions as well - especially Islam. Since these religions are mutually incompatible, in their details, we are left with concluding that either God is deceiving someone (or allowing Satan to deceive folks, which is much the same thing since God is in charge) or those of you with divine inspiration to believe are misinterpreting internal feelings.

The latter is my guess.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: RickH That statement exhibits a complete lack of understanding regarding the teachings of the Bible.

Nope. The only reason you believe that is because you are possessed, and demons are twisting your mind. The very fact that you would make such a comment proves how far the possession has taken over. You will be speaking in tongues before you know it - a sure sign of demonic dominance and deception.

The Bible is a physical, viable, tangeable writing containing a manifestation of that which we have written upon our hearts.

No, it is a book written by devout believers.

We desire to do things in the flesh, but if our desires (and subsequent actions) are not backed up by the word of God (the Bible), then they should questioned greatly before proceeding.

I desire not to kill homosexual and sunday laborers. Even if I lived in ancient Israel, I would have broken this rule and seen it for what it was - crazy rantings of religious leaders, not the word of God.

The realities of biblical subtlety are of significantly greater importance than even overt worldly actions. The smallest portion of the Bible leads only to life. Everything we pursue in the flesh leads only to death.

I call this declaritive reasoning. You exhibit no capacity to debate (although I am sure you can, if you try) - you just keep restating your position. Dude, this is a debate site.

That's a stretch from what I said, but it is fundamentally correct. Our destiny is not this flesh-and-blood existence. This fleshy existence is a way station (one caused by Adam's original sin) on the path to our final destiny which is an eternal life. It will either be lived with God, or without God. We are choosing our destiny right now.

Yet more repititious preaching.

[lsbskins1]

I was raised in the Baptist and Methodist churches. My grandmother was a Baptist, my father a Methodist. In my experience, Methodists were like Baptists on lithium. Spent a lot of time in Sunday school classes and every summer at least one and sometimes two Vacation Bible schools. I sat through at least 100 calls to commit my life and profess my love for Jesus while Just As I Am was sung with great conviction by the congregation. That is quite a public pressure cooker for those who may have never experienced it.

I am not a member of any church now. I am agnostic, that is to say I do not know absolutely, but doubt seriously the existence of a divine, involved force in the universe. God does not now, nor has he ever spoken to me. I am not a theologist by any streach of the imagination, but I have a pretty good grounding in the history of the church (Christian) and some of the major ideas behind the different major religions.

I do not hold much with the "if you really understood it, you would accept it" justification. There is no religious tradition on the face of the planet that has not made that argument in some form or another. They can not all be right. In at least the majority of cases, if not in all but one, people have been led into a false faith. If faith in your "understanding" is the only bar you accept, you set yourself up to be misled.

I will close with this. Though I do not think him divine, I believe the man we know as Jesus was one of those rare humans who see the clear meaning of justice and seek to find ways to truely inspire fellow humans to want to seek and inpliment and inspire others towards that same ideal. Other humans, through the years, added the other crap and distorted and warped the message to their own ends.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos I am sorry Rick, but this really sounds like an intellectual cop out to me.

That is because the "reality" of this world is based on deceit. We arrived here following a lie. This world is not a world God created for an eternity. This world will pass away and not endure. Only those things of God endure, which is why we (Christians) will have eternal life in paradise with God, and those who do not believe will have eternal life in Hell.

People claim the exact same sort of divine inspiration for other religions as well - especially Islam. Since these religions are mutually incompatible, in their details, we are left with concluding that either God is deceiving someone (or allowing Satan to deceive folks, which is much the same thing since God is in charge) or those of you with divine inspiration to believe are misinterpreting internal feelings. The latter is my guess.

Satan has come to kill, steal and destroy. He is the "prince of this world" and he has great power here in the flesh. But because we are made in God's image, we are stronger. Nothing Satan throws at us can defeat us. We are already victorious through Jesus Christ, but many do not realize that.

The bottom line: All one has to do is study the religions of the world, including Islam and any other religion, and the truth will become evident. It will "pop off the pages" at you.

Those who choose not to study are doing themselves the greatest injustice possible, that of perpetuating the path leading toward their own damnation.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Nope. The only reason you believe that is because you are possessed, and demons are twisting your mind. The very fact that you would make such a comment proves how far the possession has taken over. You will be speaking in tongues before you know it - a sure sign of demonic dominance and deception.

Your position is not backed up by anything taught in the Bible and is pure supposition on your behalf. I can personally attest to the fact that your statement is incorrect.

I desire not to kill homosexual and sunday laborers. Even if I lived in ancient Israel, I would have broken this rule and seen it for what it was - crazy rantings of religious leaders, not the word of God.

The very definition of placing your personal viewpoints ahead of God, which is exactly saying this: You are denying God. Therein lies the lie of this world, and therein lies your eternal punishment.

I call this declaritive reasoning. You exhibit no capacity to debate (although I am sure you can, if you try) - you just keep restating your position. Dude, this is a debate site.

The truth is fundamental. When you speak on something which cannot be broken down any further, only additional ways to explain the same thing can be conveyed.

[kingmea]

"I don't identify myself as a theist, atheist, or agnostic. Essentially, I don't absolutely believe or disbelieve in anything, so I don't wish to be tagged with a name to represent me."

LOL. THAT IS THE PERFECT EMO RESPONSE. That is so funny...you don't want to conform to either side so you evade labeling yourself at all.

I was baptized once. But nothing really happened from there.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Rick H Your position is not backed up by anything taught in the Bible and is pure supposition on your behalf. I can personally attest to the fact that your statement is incorrect.

You further prove my point. God gave you reason, but demons, through the Bible, took it away. Your personal attestation is the attestation of one who is partly possessed, but does not realize it. As long as you abandon your God-given goodness and your God-given rationality in favor of a demonic book, you will continue to blunder on with your insanity.

The very definition of placing your personal viewpoints ahead of God, which is exactly saying this: You are denying God. Therein lies the lie of this world, and therein lies your eternal punishment.

The very definition of placing your biblio-demonic viewpoints ahead of God (as given to you through your consceince), which is exactly this: You are denying God (who gave you reason and a conscience). Therein lies the lie of your religion, and therein lies your eternal punishment.

The truth is fundamental. When you speak on something which cannot be broken down any further, only additional ways to explain the same thing can be conveyed.

Self deception is fundamental. When you speak on something which cannot be defended by reason, only restating the original position or other evasive tactics can be used.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos You further prove my point. God gave you reason, but demons, through the Bible, took it away. Your personal attestation is the attestation of one who is partly possessed, but does not realize it. As long as you abandon your God-given goodness and your God-given rationality in favor of a demonic book, you will continue to blunder on with your insanity.

I cannot disprove your claim through reason. I choose not to accept it and I choose, on faith, to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ which, to my reasoning ability (as is confirmed in my spirit), is the only truth in existence.

The very definition of placing your biblio-demonic viewpoints ahead of God (as given to you through your consceince), which is exactly this: You are denying God (who gave you reason and a conscience). Therein lies the lie of your religion, and therein lies your eternal punishment.

There is nothing I can claim which could disprove this, except the personal testimony and the teachings of the Bible.

Self deception is fundamental. When you speak on something which cannot be defended by reason, only restating the original position or other evasive tactics can be used.

Agreed. We (Christians) walk by faith, not by sight.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: RickHodgin I cannot disprove your claim through reason. I choose not to accept it and I choose, on faith, to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ which, to my reasoning ability (as is confirmed in my spirit), is the only truth in existence. ... There is nothing I can claim which could disprove this, except the personal testimony and the teachings of the Bible.

I would add to that the following: There are countless teachings in the Bible which foster a better life. The Biblical life is one lived for love and with love in mind in all things. The concept of a demon, as it is defined in the dictionary, is something which is evil. Evil is generally anti-good. The teachings of the Bible describe a good life.

If up is down and down is up, and the "good life" described in the Bible is a lie, then we (Christians) are the ones damned, and everyone running around doing whatever they want to, including denying God, are the ones who are saved.

I'm prepared to take that chance as the perceptions God gave us are foundational and tied explicitly to our existence. Good is good, evil is evil. The Bible teaches only good behavior, though it teaches also what evil behavior is as well, with the central message being "God loves you, He wants to be with you, here's how you get back to Him."

We walk by faith, not by sight.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Rick H I cannot disprove your claim through reason. I choose not to accept it and I choose, on faith, to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ which, to my reasoning ability (as is confirmed in my spirit), is the only truth in existence.

You have suppressed your reasoning ability in favor of faith. Faith is the tool of demons to guide you away from your god given knowledge of right and wrong, and your god given capacity for reason. That voice of faith that you hear in your head is the whisperings of you possessor demons telling you to ignore what you know to be good and right.

There is nothing I can claim which could disprove this, except the personal testimony and the teachings of the Bible.

The testimony of one who is possessed, and who preaches the word of a book designed to trick people into letting demons into their souls - such testimony can disprove nothing.

Agreed. We (Christians) walk by faith, not by sight.

Agreed. You Christians (not all) are possesed by demons, who guide you away from your god given reason and consience, and into possession, all with the temptation of faith.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos You have suppressed your reasoning ability in favor of faith.

Faith expands reasoning abilities to include aspects that the nonbeliever cannot consider. From within that expanded reasoning ability comes the confirmation I'm telling you about.

Agreed. You Christians (not all) are possesed by demons, who guide you away from your god given reason and consience, and into possession, all with the temptation of faith.

I disagree with your claim. An applied understanding of the contents of the Bible would also require the same conclusion. There are aspects to life which are beneficial, and the Bible reinforces those. While they include self-denial in this life, the ultimate achievement of the Christian religion is to spread love, peace and joy, and to give people hope in a world without hope.

If you believe that is a demonic viewpoint, then for you up is truly down and down is truly up.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Rick H Faith expands reasoning abilities to include aspects that the nonbeliever cannot consider. From within that expanded reasoning ability comes the confirmation I'm telling you about.

nope - that is just the demon within you, convincing you that believing your imagination is a good thing. Face it dude, you are possessed.

I disagree with your claim. An applied understanding of the contents of the Bible would also require the same conclusion. There are aspects to life which are beneficial, and the Bible reinforces those. While they include self-denial in this life, the ultimate achievement of the Christian religion is to spread love, peace and joy, and to give people hope in a world without hope. If you believe that is a demonic viewpoint, then for you up is truly down and down is truly up.

the purpose of the Bible is to convince people that our creator is a perpetrator of horrendous evil, and then to accept that evil as good. How much more demonic can it get?