Your Religion

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy To devote my entire life to religion simply in order to find a God which I have no reason to believe exists is laughable.

That is your decision to make.

I have sought honestly and earnestly for the truth of the matter, in the process of which I have learned the basics of Christianity.

I am advising you that the "basics of Christianity" will not suffice for you. A deeper understanding is required for your mind. You have to look deeper than you have, and you have to seek earnestly, honestly and truly. It cannot be a half-hearted attempt.

These basics I have learned of contradict science and logic and I therefore reject them. If there were a truly credible reason to entertain the possibility of a God, perhaps I would then seek him out through the means you have stated above.

The truth does not need backing up. I have told you the truth in the best way I am capable of doing. I am also telling you that the truth is there, in the Bible. You have been told all you need to move on toward a true understanding. You are choosing not to do so and are, therefore, placing your eternal soul on the line.

If the possibility of that reality is not enough for you to attempt to gain a deeper understanding, then the Bible teaches that you have no hope. You have already chosen your path and are, therefore, damned.

However, all I have to go on is your word and the word of an unverified and partially refuted book. Between irrefutable science and logic, and refutable hearsay, I choose science. What is so unreasonable about that?

The decision is yours to make. You are the only one who has to live with the consequences of that decision (and a wife or any children you might have). And no matter how much I might want you to believe or think otherwise, only you can make that decision. And it's a biggie. It's the biggest. You would do better to spend the rest of your days living on the street if only then, 1 second before you die, do you come to believe, than you would to choose not to seek an understanding and never come to know Jesus.

You have been told the consequences of not believing. If you choose not to pursue a deeper understanding you will have no excuse on the day of judgement.

And just to be absolutely clear: If you choose to study the Bible and learn about Jesus Christ (and therefore attain a true understanding of what He's offering and why we need Him), and if you then develop a close, personal relationship with Him and obey His teachings and commands, then that is the only way you can be saved. If you choose not to do those things, then you will be damned.

The choice is yours, and I will pray you make the right one.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: RickHodgin The truth does not need backing up. I have told you the truth in the best way I am capable of doing. I am also telling you that the truth is there, in the Bible. You have been told all you need to move on toward a true understanding. You are choosing not to do so and are, therefore, placing your eternal soul on the line.

The truth does not need backing up, but an unverified claim does need backing up in order for it to be established as truth. Hence, my skepticism and inability to accept religion.

Quote by: RickHodgin The decision is yours to make. You are the only one who has to live with the consequences of that decision (and a wife or any children you might have). And no matter how much I might want you to believe or think otherwise, only you can make that decision. And it's a biggie. It's the biggest. You would do better to spend the rest of your days living on the street if only then, 1 second before you die, do you come to believe, than you would to choose not to seek an understanding and never come to know Jesus.

Deciding whether or not to devote my life to a religion or to devote it to myself is, as you said, a "biggie". It's all very well to say that living a life of suffering pales in comparison to living an eternity in hell. However, there is nothing to suggest that I will spend an eternity in hell for not believing, and everything to suggest that I would be wasting my life by devoting it to religion. I have weighed up the evidence on both sides and come to the conclusion that devoting my life to religion, or devoting my life to forcing myself to believe, would be simply wasting what little time I have.

Quote by: RickHodgin You have been told the consequences of not believing. If you choose not to pursue a deeper understanding you will have no excuse on the day of judgement.

My excuse is that God has made me with an enquiring and skeptical mind and has then placed me in a world in which all the evidence points to his non existence. It is then inevitable that I will not be convinced of his existence and that I will not want to waste my short life in what I see as fruitless endeavors.

Why then do I deserve eternal damnation for something which is ultimately God's fault?

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Why then do I deserve eternal damnation for something which is ultimately God's fault?

You are already damned. We all are. It is only because of the grace of Jesus Christ that we have a way out. All seems well to you, and will until the day you die. But when the lies of this world are taken away from your consciousness and you are able to see beyond the limitations of "through a glass, darkly", then your reasoning mind at that time, unencumbered by the limits of the flesh or of a temporal understanding of existence, will see your own actions for what they are. Your own words, your own choices and your own conclusions will convict you. There will be no question of it.

No one can force anyone to believe. All any of us can do is explain the truth of the Bible in the best way we can, and explain the profit to be had in giving your life over to Jesus Christ.

The Bible teaches that for believers "the best is yet to come". The truth is there, albeit far less desirable from a flesh-based point of view. That's why you have to die to the flesh and be born again in the spirit (the Christian baptism).

It's a very simple thing to understand, but it requires walking by faith, not by sight. And for that reason, many will perish. Their own pride, their own personal viewpoint of how it should be is placed forefront and therein do they perpetuate the lie of this world, the lie which says "It's okay to believe what you want to believe." God set it up a particular way, and unless we believe in His way and deny our own way, we will forever be lost.

It really is that simple.

[Captain Chaos]

No Rick. It only seems simple because you are scared to debate with reason.

You are preaching, not responding to specific points.


I think you are scared of debating your beliefs, because you know they will fall flat in the light of reason. I think you turn to faith as an excuse, to avoid this fear.

I will pray for you, that you might find reason one day.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: RickHodgin You are already damned. We all are. It is only because of the grace of Jesus Christ that we have a way out. All seems well to you, and will until the day you die. But when the lies of this world are taken away from your consciousness and you are able to see beyond the limitations of "through a glass, darkly", then your reasoning mind at that time, unencumbered by the limits of the flesh or of a temporal understanding of existence, will see your own actions for what they are. Your own words, your own choices and your own conclusions will convict you. There will be no question of it.

But until I die, I am still subject to reasoning and logic and to the "lies of this world". God made this world and he therefore made the lies of this world. He is therefore entirely responsible for my sins.

Quote by: RickHodgin No one can force anyone to believe. All any of us can do is explain the truth of the Bible in the best way we can, and explain the profit to be had in giving your life over to Jesus Christ.

To my mind (the mind that God granted me) the explanations of Christianity are wholly unconvincing. God made my mind in such a way that I cannot be convinced by dogma. Therefore, God is entirely responsible for my sins.

Quote by: RickHodgin It's a very simple thing to understand, but it requires walking by faith, not by sight. And for that reason, many will perish. Their own pride, their own personal viewpoint of how it should be is placed forefront and therein do they perpetuate the lie of this world, the lie which says "It's okay to believe what you want to believe." God set it up a particular way, and unless we believe in His way and deny our own way, we will forever be lost.

God set it up in a particular way which just happens to make it impossible for many of us to overcome our humanity and to see past the "lies of this world". He is therefore entirely responsible for our sins.

All too often, Christians impale themselves on their own sword by claiming an omniscient and omnipotent god. What they don't seem to realise is that an omniscient and omnipotent being must responsible for everything in the universe, including all the evil for which people are condemned to hell.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos No Rick. It only seems simple because you are scared to debate with reason. You are preaching, not responding to specific points.

The difference between faith and other aspects of our life here on Earth are that the wisdom, teachings and knowledge of the Bible are not to be truly understood through our flesh-and-blood mind, and, therefore, do not stand up to a flesh-and-blood reasoning ability. They are spiritually discerned and undrestood, meaning that they transcend the limitations of what we see before us.

We are seeing a very small portion of the universe here in the physical world. The spiritual world operates outside of and away from that world, though the results of those operations can manifest themselves here in otherwise unexplained ways.

I think you are scared of debating your beliefs, because you know they will fall flat in the light of reason. I think you turn to faith as an excuse, to avoid this fear.

I would undoubtedly lose a debate if it came down to reasoning our way through the finer points of Christianity, and what it means to be a believer and to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. They are not governed by logic and reason. They are governed by forces beyond our fleshy comprehension. The Bible calls them "spiritual" and that is what they are.

I will pray for you, that you might find reason one day.

My reason is in tact insomuch as I can tell. It is just that on the issue of Christianity, there is nothing to debate. The truth is fundamental and it cannot be broken down further. The only limiting factor in achieving positive and useful results from this debate are the components of reason impeding the process.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy But until I die, I am still subject to reasoning and logic and to the "lies of this world". God made this world and he therefore made the lies of this world. He is therefore entirely responsible for my sins.

He gave you a mind to reason your way to an understanding of the ways of this world. He did that so you would be able to grow and reproduce and position yourself in such a way that you would be able to sit one day in front of the fire and ask the big questions like: "Why am I here?" "What is my purpose?"

What He offers you through faith is beyond reasoning, beyond logic. In fact, you cannot make the leap yourself. It must come from Jesus. You demonstrate through the components He has provided you with (reason, logic, and your "heart") that you are trying to find Him, and He will then find you.

To my mind (the mind that God granted me) the explanations of Christianity are wholly unconvincing. God made my mind in such a way that I cannot be convinced by dogma. Therefore, God is entirely responsible for my sins.

The truth is there in the Bible. There is nothing more that can be said. I can explain realities of that truth in many different ways, but I cannot make you want to know more. Until you tear down those walls of cursory resistance toward Christianity and seek a true understanding, you will not see any growth in that area and you will be damned. The only thing that could save you is God's grace, but that is not something defined in the Bible outside of its existence and God saying that He will have mercy on who He will have mercy.

God set it up in a particular way which just happens to make it impossible for many of us to overcome our humanity and to see past the "lies of this world". He is therefore entirely responsible for our sins.

God is calling out to you in so many ways that, were you able to hear His calls, it would be deafening. Evidence of His existence is everywhere. You cannot look at anything in this world and not see Him. The problem nonbelievers have is they are too willing to listen to the lies about what exists and how it exists. It's easy to think one has a handle on something, rather than admitting they don't know and accepting it on faith.

All too often, Christians impale themselves on their own sword by claiming an omniscient and omnipotent god. What they don't seem to realise is that an omniscient and omnipotent being must responsible for everything in the universe, including all the evil for which people are condemned to hell.

God created the system which allows the choices we make to arrive us at our final eternal destination (Heaven or Hell), so in that regard God did create Heaven, Hell, goodness and evil. But He is not the author of evil acts, only the medium which allows them to manifest themselves through the choices made within.

I can only tell you that which the Bible teaches. I cannot make you believe. No one can make you believe. You have heard the truth here about Jesus Christ and His offer to everyone. It seems so silly to the reasoning mind that it can easily be discounted, but that doesn't change the reality of its truth and its existence exactly as I have stated.

[WakeTFU]

I am a form believer is 'Ism'. Larryism (that's my name). It means I believe what I believe and it doesn't make a difference. As a believer in Ism, I believe everyone is entitled to whatever beliefs they want (believe in something an doing something is different, if you believe that sacrificing virgins is a good thing, fine, just don't do it, or there will be consequences). Why should there be consequences for your beliefs sometimes? Because you live in a country where majority rules, and the majority of us agree: killing is wrong. If you don't like the rules of our majority rules country: leave. Back to my beliefs. I believe Jesus existed, but whether or not he was divine is up in the air. It's certainly possible. At the very least, he was certainly very influential. I agree with all of the chritian values (the 10 commandments) but I think some bits of the bible are...off. At least for this day and age. Anyways, Ism, live and let live. Treat others as you would have them treat you, OR treat others as they would want to be treated. Be genrous and kind, all that good stuff. I have a relationship with God. I think to him, I speak to him sometimes, I thank him often, and I pray for good things. For everyone. Yeah...well, that's it I guess. I basically just try to be nice and not judge or anything. Heh, I never really tried to explain myself like this...

[Jagged]

Im pretty sure Ism = agnostic. :( Sorry to burst your bubble Mr. Unique :-P

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy God is entirely responsible for my sins.

Not at all. Your statement is thoughtless. Dear, neither you know God nor yourself! If you help some poor by way of cash or kind you would say you did it and feel proud in the heart of hearts. But, if you mange to grab some loot money from some rich person, you would say God made you to do it. Or, it was in the luck of that person. The matter is not that way!!! Both good and bad actions are done due the property of your own self. If you admit in the heart of hearts as its doer, you are undoubtedly have to bear the fruit of the action. God has no role to play!!!

A bit of philosophy here: the differece between God and You is simply the ignorance of individuality due to presence of your mind with you. This very mind has developed property of individuality in you. Desire, lust, greed, purety, nobleness etc. are developed due to this very mind. If you can erase sense or ego of individuality in you, then You would become God. I can not say how much you believe in it. But remember, God has nothing to do with your sins or good deeds. The whole set of actions, good or bad are due to you and only you.:(

[Jagged]

Hello, I'm new here and simply want to share my views so yall know where I’m coming from as I debate in this section, which is the primary reason I joined these forums.

I guess pretty much everybody would call me an atheist. Of what sect of atheism i am i do not know. I came to these forums in order to expand my debate techniques as well as to hear different ideas concerning religion. Reading the first posts of this forum that i saw made me giddy with excitement, for in all honesty i've never been part of a serious forum before.

I was raised a Catholic, and im pretty sure my adventure through middle school harshly ripped my mind of any religious notion. Evolution- down to complicated aspects such as eyes and even, although somewhat speculatively, the initial creation of cells simply makes sense to me. Logic has carried me through life. If i know something is logically sound, I feel as safe as my Catholic cousin who knows that God is always with her. A large portion of Religion which i, well, call it hate if you want, is the fact that it’s pretty much blind believing. The first topic i read on this board was the CaptainChaos vs RickHodgin casuals “debate”. One of Rick's statements (agreeing with Chaos, it wasn’t really a logical rebuttal) was "believe and walk in a straight line; thats all you have to do to be saved."

Comon dude. God, if he exists, gave us such amazing abilities to reason FOR a reason. If i were religious i would still consider it an insult to the Creator to simply jump in on the bandwagon of predetermined moral rules and to claim life's mysteries settled. At least attempt to learn more about how things work and why things are the way they are and fine tune your morals (for the ten commandments are hardly enough to live one's life by) through personal experiences. Blindly living your life, following others footsteps on a horribly downbeaten path makes your time here on earth, whether you go to heaven or whether no such afterlife exists, pointless and worthless. Set out to discover the world yourself; Jesus's followers did it and wrote it in a book. I am not religious; yet i still do the best i can to be the best person i can be. No matter what i cannot have a guilty conscience, and i cannot imagine a God that would punish me for doing so. Half the reason i do not believe in God nor I.D. is because, well, I don’t believe a perfect God could nor would create a world like this. Additionally, and especially, a perfect and just God wouldn’t create such an amazing, confounding, and intricate world for our sole purpose of following some rules so we get rewarded. That would be sadistic: like creating a robot, its (unfair) surroundings, giving it rules, the ability to feel pain, and watching what happens. What?

'Scuse me for the use of the term "you" and the fact that i sound like im preaching. I feel that because i am selfishly listing what i believe the very beginning of the meaning of life to be i might be allowed to preach just this one time.




Now onto another idea about forums such as this, and, sadly, RickHodgin. Sorry i have to pinpoint you man, but you so far are the only user on this board that appears to be doing this.

Basically, as you, RickHodgin, will testify, you cannot actually argue for religion on the basis that religion requires Faith. By default faith is the opposite of logic and reason.

I would undoubtedly lose a debate if it came down to reasoning our way through the finer points of Christianity, and what it means to be a believer and to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. They are not governed by logic and reason.

I hate seeing topics titled "Proof God exists" in the teen forums i used to belong to because you can't prove that god exists. Its something you feel within yourself, or something you think you feel inside yourself, or something you feel inside yourself that you think is god (sorry for awk.). In Douglas Adam's “Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy” the demise of God actually occurred when somebody accidentally proved the existence of God, thus destroying the need for faith, thus destroying God.

Basically all you, RickHodgin, are doing here is rebutting all arguments by stating that the answer to this topic cannot be found through reason, that you are undeniably correct, and we(unbelievers) are lost. Ok. I am not saying you shouldn't be allowed to do this, but i have another question. This question, unlike the riddle of the Existence of God, is one that can be conquered through logic: Why the hell are you here?

This, as far as i know, is a debate forum. Debate, as far as i know, consists of logic through understanding. Note the use of the word understanding- the ability to grasp a concept. Citing that everything we are talking about is too abstract and inexplicable is taking steps backwards, to times before we knew that things fall to earth in parabolas and that the earth is round (i would really like to have a debate on this sometime too muahaha). So, assuming you acknowledge that you cannot debate the truth of your statements in a such un"fleshy" medium such as this forum, what are you doing? What spew of logic made you come into this debate forum, in which people enjoy debating, and say to yourself “I cant debate, but I will preach to all the logic-loving bastards here! Especially because they will all listen to my motivational blabber despite not having logic!” Can't you see how ignorant you appear? Do you actually think you can convert people over the internet? This resonates a blunt "holier-than-thou" attitude which nobody likes. Imagine a person going into a group of people you have never met before and stating “I’m better than you all.” What will their reactions be? How about “yeah, alright, whatever, everybody likes you.” Last time I checked people had to earn their respect. Then people might listen to you.

Debate against evolution. Debate plausible reasons for a God. Find clever loopholes in arguments and think up ideas such as "atheism takes faith too." Don’t preach though. It’s pointless and irksome. You need to realize that we think that you believe that “when it comes to Christianity, it isn’t debatable” because you have never challenged the beliefs you have held since you were 15. You do not challenge these not because you are purely loyal to Christianity (nobody is pure, right?), but because you fear what might happen. To us you seem like a coward. And no, we don’t not believe in God in order to smite him, we simply believe in where our minds have taken us. You need to realize that Faith isn’t beyond logic; it’s undermining the brain God gave you and running away from the apparent harsh realities of life.
---------------------------

So, i hope i didn't start off too harshly. I look forward to debating in this forum.
:)

[RickHodgin]

(Jagged wrote) Imagine a person going into a group of people you have never met before and stating “I’m better than you all.” What will their reactions be?

I wanted to be very clear about something. I do not believe I am better than anyone else. The fact is I know I am not. Every day I struggle with sin, even hundreds of times. I am not better than anyone else. It is only this: because I have found Jesus Christ, I have found a better way. Jesus tells us that His way is better, and He is quite correct in saying that.

We may have struggles in this world, as believers, but holding to our values and standing up for the teachings of Jesus Christ does not make us better than anyone else, nor does it make us "holier than thou", for there is only one who is holy. It makes us resolute, determined and steadfast in our application of our ideals, something that is very much foreign in this world today.

[namguy69]

Quote by: John I am also a babtised catholic however, i do not want to be centered on one belief and one belief only, i am sort of like you i guess, i like to keep it all open, no one really knows what death holds for us and therefore no real conclusions can be drawn until you die.

I also was 'baptized' a Catholic, but it reall ment nothing seeing how I was a babby.:eek:

[namguy69]

:eek:

Quote by: Gorgo I can say with almost absolute certainty that Jehovah the tribal war god does not exist.

That's a mighty broad statement.

[namguy69]

Quote by: Gorgo So, to you, sending someone to hell for eternity is like a "time out" for a few minutes? A husband and wife conceiving a baby is like god creating the universe? This is what you have? Cop out when you run up against a wall. You seemed to know plenty about god when you were saying that he was omnipotent, omniscient, etc. <!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,[/i] The concept of forgiveness is simple, yet hard to many people.

Yes. Forgive yourself. That's all you need to know. You don't need to create gods to do it.[/quote]

Looking at it from a Christian point of view no one can forgive themselves.

[namguy69]

Quote by: Aeris I'm a theist. Religion is control. Faith is freedom.

Oh how true....

[RickHodgin]

Jagged,

I wrote a lengthy reply to you which initially posted. However, it has since been deleted.

- RickHodgin

[Jagged]

Quote by: RickHodgin I wanted to be very clear about something. I do not believe I am better than anyone else. The fact is I know I am not. Every day I struggle with sin, even hundreds of times. I am not better than anyone else. It is only this: because I have found Jesus Christ, I have found a better way. Jesus tells us that His way is better, and He is quite correct in saying that. We may have struggles in this world, as believers, but holding to our values and standing up for the teachings of Jesus Christ does not make us better than anyone else, nor does it make us "holier than thou", for there is only one who is holy. It makes us resolute, determined and steadfast in our application of our ideals, something that is very much foreign in this world today.

I understand. However my example still holds against your "standing up for Jesus." Instead of saying "i am better than you all" with absolutely no reasons for saying so and no reputation or respect to back it up, as was in the example, you state "Jesus is the way" with absolutely no argument or gained respect to back you up. Actually, you do hold the miniscule argument of saying

"Jesus tells us that His way is better, and He is quite correct in saying that."

But you need to realize that you can't use the Bible as evidence for believing the bible. A lot of Christians, not pinpointing you, are so used to solely following the bible and using it to settle all arguments that the idea of not being able to use the bible as their argument for something seems absurd.

For example, if you’ve seen the movie "Saved," whenever a teacher tells a student to do something, all she/he would pretty much argue is "thats what Jesus wants you to do and what the bible tells you to do." Because all of the students are all Christians, they obey with acrimony. It's simply how things are settled. However, when one tries to quote the bible to a person who doesn't believe in it, in order to "prove" to them that they should believe in the bible, the Chrisitan forget sthat they can't use the words from the bible to corroborate their statements. Thus, just stating "the bible tells you do believe in Jesus" really doesn't connect or apply to anybody who isnt a Christian on these forums, and seems relatively absurd to us. So don't quote the bible or what Jeus wants us to do in order to get us to believe in God.

Also, did youre post get deleated by a moderator? Or did you accidentally or purposely deleate it?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: RickHodgin He gave you a mind to reason your way to an understanding of the ways of this world....[preaching repititions]....the reality of its truth and its existence exactly as I have stated.

You have not addressed my point. If God created me, he created my mind, my logic, my soul and everything else about me. If God is omniscient, he created me in full knowledge that I would live a sinful life and that I would be damned for it. He had power to prevent my damnation by either creating me as a dogmatic and illogical person or by simply not creating me. However, he did nothing to prevent my inevitable damnation. In effect, he screwed me over big time.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Kuldeep Not at all. Your statement is thoughtless. Dear, neither you know God nor yourself!

I am basing this on the Christian God; one who is omniscient, omnipotent, and responsible for the creation of all things.

Quote by: Kuldeep If you help some poor by way of cash or kind you would say you did it and feel proud in the heart of hearts. But, if you mange to grab some loot money from some rich person, you would say God made you to do it. Or, it was in the luck of that person.

Ah how wrong you are. If I help the poor, I will feel good about it superficially. However, in my "heart of hearts", I know that my action is nothing more than a happy coincidence. Similarly, if someone steals, my superficial reaction would be to judge him as a bad person. However, in my "heart of hearts", I would feel sorry for him, as he will then be judged by society for something which he could not have avoided.

Quote by: Kuldeep The matter is not that way!!! Both good and bad actions are done due the property of your own self. If you admit in the heart of hearts as its doer, you are undoubtedly have to bear the fruit of the action. God has no role to play!!!

God created me as an evil person. He is therefore responsible for any evil actions I "choose" to carry out.

Quote by: Kuldeep A bit of philosophy here: the differece between God and You is simply the ignorance of individuality due to presence of your mind with you. This very mind has developed property of individuality in you. Desire, lust, greed, purety, nobleness etc. are developed due to this very mind.

This very mind that God gave me. If God creates me with a mind filled with lust, greed and desire and devoid of purity and nobility, it is inevitable that I will lead a sinful life. This is only my fault insofar as it is the result of my mind. But looking deeper, at the cause of my evil mind, we find God, the creator of all things.