Your Religion

[Nathan Struth]

I'm Atheist, Buddhism talks stuff that is very un-scientific. I love the morals of Buddhism though (I'm a pacifist). There truly are no spirits, the only thing we have is our minds if anything. THere's no "Heart", but merely the beliefs you have in your head. Once you die, you decompose...that's it. I guess that's heaven if you think about it, because when your heads gone, you won't be able to deal with anyones shit or anything of that matter.

[namguy69]

Catholic Church is great for doing that...

No one is ever good enough to get to Heaven^%$#@ ' Their religion ' is TOTALLY FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS. Note I use the the the term, religion. I was part of the Catholic Church, baptized Catholic, which really ment nothing seeing as I was an infant not knowing a thing! Later on when I was cast into the hands of child beaters while attending Catholic School and being forced taught that nuns & priests were held in such esteem, just this side of walking on water of course.
Well to into this anymore would just be waste so I'll leave it go as is.
namguy69

[namguy69]

Oh my, that's just one of their draw backs, in reality they're countless. But you sited is certainly one of worst if not the worst. It's been going for years but their endless cash flow lept them out of the lime light, now it's not so easy for to hide, but justice still hasn't been had.
namguy69

[littleeif]

I am a believing Roman Catholic. I am a cradle Catholic but also a revert - for about ten years I espoused no religious beliefs and lived essentially as a hedonist.I found life in that condition empty, dry and, in the end, had trouble composing reasons to live. In the midst of crisis in my life, I began at the beginning. Did I believe in God? Why? Did I believe in an objective right and wrong? Why? Over the course of a year of such contemplation, of attending Mass without receiving Communion and after a serious and brutally honest confession I made my return to the faith. That was 25 years ago and I have been at peace since. I have studied other religious practices but have found none with the depth that Catholicism represents, both intellectually and spiritually. If one is interested in friendship and a personal relationship with Jesus I can think of no more direct and intimate path than through the Eucharist and I now find life without the prospect of receiving the Eucharist unimaginable.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: dotComa What is your religious affiliation, why, and what conclusions have you come to about your own religion. Do you accept other ones? If not why...

There is only one name under which we must be saved. Jesus Christ. All other names, be they the creation of man or of a misguided attempt by man to place emphasis on a particular aspect of life, the word or of a particular component of doctrine, only serves to divide man and take focus off of the true intent.

At the end of the day, all of us will bow before Jesus Christ and will acknowledge Him as Lord. Everything that we find ourselves going through regarding religious affiliation is a distraction designed to deceive, therefore it is a lie. We need only seek the Lord, Jesus Christ, and His word, and then fellowship with one another to reinforce and bring into focus that which we, as independent, thinking people, acting together as the members of a body, believe collectively as it aligns with the word. The truth will be revealed, for it is promised unto us.

We should all, therefore, serve to guide and direct one another only in the teachings of Jesus Christ. To push a particular religious agenda from within that framework, such as a particular denomination, the need for a particular practice, or any other requirements of a person in this world seeking the truth, is blasphemous. We are calling the Lord God by some other name and for some other purpose. We might as well be calling Him names to His face, for that is what we are doing when we are divided.

Jesus himself set aside seven churches for His purposes. It is not for us to question Jesus' purpose, but only to be obedient and take on a servant's attitude, placing the lives of everyone else above that of our own. We are to be servants, one to another.

The teachings of Jesus Christ are evident to anyone with eyes. All one has to do is look deep and look around to have revealed the truth that everything He has spoken is true. He has written his name upon the stars! His word is also confirmed by its writing upon our hearts, and when we align ourselves with that word we begin to feel a true connection with our creator and an inkling of what is to come for us.

The best is yet to come. Believe and be baptized, everyone, in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and the only name by which we must be saved.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: foxmuldr The best is yet to come. Believe and be baptized, everyone, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Thanks, but I'll pass.

Hmmm, I haven't posted in this thread before. For anyone who doesn't already know, I'm a scientist through and through.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Thanks, but I'll pass.

The truth will not be silenced. We will all stand before Jesus Christ someday. Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Everyone owes it to themselves to find out whether or not they choosing to turn their backs on Jesus Christ rightly or wrongly. The only way one can know rightly is to gain a full understanding of what it means to know Jesus Christ, which is to say what it means to know love.

Jesus is love. He can bring peace where there is no peace. He can bring joy where there is no joy. He can bring hope where there is only despair. And He can open the eyes of those who think they have it alright, or of those who think they don't need to know Him.

"Jesus is Lord" does not carry the connotation it would here on Earth. Jesus being our loving Lord is something significant, importand and is something all should realize, understand and come to know.

[The Bacon Guy]

Knowledge is preferable to ignorance? Your post does not contain knowledge; it contains dogma and totally unverified claims. Do you really expect me just to take your word for it that God exists?

The bible contradicts scientific evidence in many areas. The bible, and the entire morality preached by it is illogical and contradictory. The bible has no evidence to support its truth. Why then should I believe it over science and logic, both of which are objective and verifiable?

Acccording to your faith, God made me as I am. I am a skeptic with a logical and scientific mind who will not unquestioningly accept whatever dogma is shovelled down his throat. Unless your God is a complete asshole, I'm sure he would understand why I am unable to subscribe to a religion.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Knowledge is preferable to ignorance? Your post does not contain knowledge; it contains dogma and totally unverified claims. Do you really expect me just to take your word for it that God exists?

No. The Bible teaches that in everything we do we should seek an understanding. You are dismissing my claims of knoweldge as "dogma" and you may be doing so after much study, discussion, reflection, thought and then a conscious application of it all into a formed position. If so, then you are where you have chosen to be.

If you have not read, studied and gained a solid comprehension of the Bible, then you are acting on your own personal beliefs, and therefore placing greater value on personal pride than on knowledge (the pride being your decision to discount Christianity and the wisdom and teachings of the Bible out of turn without having read it).

The bible contradicts scientific evidence in many areas. The bible, and the entire morality preached by it is illogical and contradictory. The bible has no evidence to support its truth. Why then should I believe it over science and logic, both of which are objective and verifiable?

Show me one place where the Bible contradicts scientific evidence and I'll show you a place where scientific evidence is incomplete.

Acccording to your faith, God made me as I am. I am a skeptic with a logical and scientific mind who will not unquestioningly accept whatever dogma is shovelled down his throat. Unless your God is a complete asshole, I'm sure he would understand why I am unable to subscribe to a religion.

God made you as you are. He also gave you free will. He will honor your choice, the choice made here in this flesh and blood life about whether or not you want to return to Him. He formed you in His hands at some point and then, due to Adam's original sin, you wound up here, lost for all eternity. Yours would be but a very short life lived only here in the flesh, and then to be cast into the pits/bowels of Hell for all eternity. That is the fate awaiting all of us who do not accept the teachings of Jesus Christ and turn from our flesh-seeking desires and follow His truth.

I don't know how to describe what I'm about to describe to you fully, but I will try. This is my third attempt at writing the following down in words. If you would like to understand this better, I would suggest going to a local church and speaking to a Pastor/Minister about what I'm going to say so you can get the full understanding, along with questions answered.

Some Christian denominations teach the Trinity, that is to say 1) The Father, 2) The Son and 3) The "Holy Ghost" or the "Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit is the most confusing to non-believers. People can generally understand (correctly) the concept of God, as the creator of all things. When it comes to the "son of God" there is a little fuzziness, but the general meaning for the sake of cursory understanding is applicable and correct, thereby affording them enough of a framework to realize what's truly happening without the true spiritual connection filling in the gaps.

It's the third part that nonbelievers can't often grasp, and many believers cannot often grasp until such time as they cleanse themselves of the remaining sinful acts, and address that which the spirit is talking to them about.

When Christians first come to know Jesus Christ, there is not an immediate "switching off" of all sinful desires. A person might be living with their girlfriend or boyfriend and regularly engaging in sexual activities, or going out to bars or clubs with that person and having a good time. When a person first comes to believe those activities will not be immediately silenced or squelched. They will, however, through continued pursuit of the faith and its teachings, be impelled from within to discontinue those activities and to align themselves with God's teachings through the Bible.

That component acting upon their life is The Holy Spirit. It is directing things from a non-physical point of view, meaning that while we are truly here in the flesh, and while we are truly moving our arms and legs, and while we truly have a mind to think, there is another component from within which goes much deeper than any of those previously mentioned, and that is our connection to God through The Holy Spirit. It is that connection to The Holy Spirit which drives us and compels us to believe and then to act upon our beliefs.

I mention all of this above to convey the following: The Bible is affirmed and confirmed by The Holy Spirit connection. When we begin to believe, all of the falacies and arguable points of the Bible begin to melt away because they are not understood from the same point of view any longer. The Holy Spirit imparts unto us a revelation of knowledge which is not able to be understood by the non-believer, because it does not come from a flesh-and-blood understanding through a reasoning of the mind, but rather it comes from a much deeper place via the spiritual connection to The Holy Spirit.

God is greater than all of us, and the Trinity which is often taught is God. There is no distinction between "God, The Father", "God, The Son" or "God, The Holy Spirit". All are God, and all are one. The concept of the "Trinity" is a way for our mind to wrap itself around the concept until we come to believe. Once we come to believe, God gives us a spiritual connection to Himself, one which transcends reason and logic (from a nonbeliever's point of view). And it is only because of that gift by God, the confirmation of The Holy Spirit and all that its presence in regards to our being, our thoughts and our actions entails, that we are able to walk and proceed with a truer understanding of the Bible's teachings than can be given by a nonbeliever's understanding alone.

Great men of faith who have studied the Bible for many, many years often talk about there being three layers to the Bible. The first layer is the one everyone can understand when they read it. Jesus' teachings, for example, the parables and the Sermon on the Mount, can be understood initially by someone who reads the Bible. They don't need to have that Holy Spirit connection yet to understand what He is teaching.

However, as one becomes a believer and one steps out on faith, the words begin to take on a new meaning. They convey a deeper message, and one which can only be discerned, comprehended or understood, through The Holy Spirit. That is the second layer of understanding. Connections from portions of the Bible and its teachings which previously seemed to be completely unrelated now begin to take shape. The connections affirm and confirm things in ways that a nonbeliever simply could not see or understand.

However, there is a third layer of the Bible. It is one that I can honestly say I have not seen yet, although perhaps occasional glimpses of it. It is where the word itself actually comes alive and reveals itself before a true, devoted and devout believer, one who studies the Bible and focuses all of his attentions and thoughts to it, where it almost seems as though there is an entity standing before you revealing all of the truths of the universe.

That layer is something that can only come through constant prayer, constant fasting, constant reflection, constant study, constant devotion. It can only come from a true, true, true desire to seek only that which is of God, and there are very few people who are called to that level.

How much more there is to the Bible than its outward appearances suggest. And how foolish the knowledge of this world is when compared to the Bible and it's true understanding, explanation and revelation of what there is in store for us, God's greatest creation, that which was made in His own image.

We have more power, more authority, more responsibility and have been granted more gifts than any of us could ever imagine, believe or even accept (were they all revelead to us here in the flesh). The promise of God exceeds man's wildest aspirations by many fold. And yet we (mankind in general) are content to sit here wallowing in the pig pen of the flesh, not able to see that just inside the nearby farmhouse there is a better way to live, a better way to believe and a better life to be had.

It comes down to a choice for all of us. What we are seeking here, and what God has extended to us, is beyond the nonbeliever's comprehension.

"Through a glass, darkly" is how we see life today. Imagine how much clearer, how much brighter, how much "more" it will be when we see it truly. If your flesh has any desires to achieve such a prize, then you owe it to yourself to give it to yourself. It is free for the taking, but it does require you follow all of the rules. Get a good understanding of the Bible, seek earnestly and you will find. The door will be opened and you will be able to sit down at the table and eat with Jesus Christ, and He with you.

The rewards of that decision are beyond measure, despite the total outward appearance to the contrary here in the flesh.

[Captain Chaos]

Fox, do you believe the Bible is the word of God because you were inspired by Jesus to believe it, or because of some sort of evidence?

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Fox, do you believe the Bible is the word of God because you were inspired by Jesus to believe it, or because of some sort of evidence?

That is a most interesting question. I will try to answer as best I can.

Before I became a Christian I was an athiest. I went to college studying theoretical physics and I believed greatly in science, evolution and was of the whole "mankind will eventually figure out every riddle" mentality. I knew that just because I didn't know a thing today, or that just because our science today could not know a thing, that doesn't mean that tomorrow it won't figure it out and the big mysteries and riddles of the universe will be solved.

A Christian man, named Randy, was a co-worker of mine sitting in the next cubicle over. He and I used to get in some heated debates over various subjects, to the point where I would pretty much make him angry and we wouldn't talk for a while. I used to get a kick out of it, though not so much as you might think. I was simply pleased that my ability to wield science and the knowledge I had gained up until that time to defend his claims of religion. But the truth was, I kind of wanted to defeat him. I wanted to prove to him once and for all that the Bible was just a bunch of stories made up by man to address our fears and that which we did not understand. I was committed to that decision and asked if he would be willing to teach me the Bible so I could pick at its finer points.

He agreed and we sat down every day at lunch for 1/2 hour and started studying the Bible. We began at Genesis 1 and worked our way back. We got to about Genesis 3 and I was beginning to realize that there was much more to the Bible than I had first thought. There are so many points which can be looked at another way, but as Randy began to describe to me the alternate understanding or alternate viewpoints that a Christian would hold, what he was saying began to make more and more sense.

It was about 2 months of reading and studying the Bible during those lunch time hours before I came to realize that I believed in Jesus Christ. The truth had caught me because I was seeking a true understanding of the Bible, even though my understanding was for less than pure motives (from a Biblical point of view as I was trying to prove it wrong). I was forced to admit that I believed and ever since that time I have pursued a better knowledge and an understanding of Christianity. I have come up short on many occasions as I would like to spend more time reading and studying the Bible each day, but I have a wife and a son and they take time, plus there are real-world activities and events which draw my time (fixing the gutter, mowing the lawn, etc.).

Nevertheless, the drive is within me and I know that through patient endurance that which the Father has in mind for me to do (works-wise) will be made available to me.

So, to answer your question succinctly: I began studying and understanding the Bible and it revealed itself to me through the accompanying words of a Christian brother who sacrificed of himself daily for that period of time to teach me more about my life than I had ever thought possible. I have since come to realize that what God has in mind for each of us, all of us, is beyond our wildest dreams and comprehension. It is better than the best we can imagine, and it is free and it is forever.

Even our life here in the flesh, which seems so awful at times, was given to us as a gift by God to allow us to return to Him.

The Bible has so much to teach and so much to offer. For anyone to think they can understand it from a cursory examination is only denying themself the truth. The real truth is right there, within those pages. It is calling all of us home and it is more real than anything in this world. For a true Christian, the "walking by faith" part becomes easy. It's the struggling with the day-in/day-out insanity of this world that is difficult.

Jesus said that His way was easier, and He is right, and He is right from top to bottom. I can bear witness to that, and I will share that which I have learned with anyone who asks, even those pursuing knowledge of the kingdom for ulterior means or motives. As long as God's word is being spoken, the truth will not be held captive for long.

[Captain Chaos]

Does the doctrine of eternal damnation bother you?

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Does the doctrine of eternal damnation bother you?

Insomuch as it is my personal desire that none should be lost to those fires, yes. But insomuch as the reality of the knowledge that God will not condemn anyone out of spite, but rather will extend to them time and time again an offering to come to know him and to repent of their evil ways, no.

The system we are in is very easy for me to to understand as a whole, though I am not completely sure if that understanding comes from a spiritual point of view or a reasoned point of view so that I can explain it to others.

Consider it this way:
Originally God made Adam, the first man. He made him perfect, but he gave him free will. At some point after that the man was deceived by Satan into "eating the forbidden fruit" (whatever that was, it could be a metaphor, but it doesn't really matter) whereby the spiritual life Adam lived with God was then cast into flesh. Once cast into flesh, he was here (where we are now) and we began to die from that moment on. Adam lived 930 years and died, as has everyone after him except Jesus.

Adam lived with God, which means he was spiritual. He sinned and was cast into the flesh. Because of Adam's original sin and being cast into the flesh, all of us who are born into this flesh carry his original sin (we are flesh). We will return to God after we die, but there are two aspects about that which must be brought up.

First, the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death, meaning that if you ever sin you must die. And since we are here in the flesh, we are already lost. We will die. Period. If we sin one time (being born), we die. If we do nothing but sin our entire lives, every day, 500 times per day, we die. We only die once.

Second, the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ (who was God) became flesh (was born) and lived a perfect life. And because He lived a perfect life, He could voluntarily sacrifice Himself upon the cross, thereby dying for sin once and for all. He could, because he knew no sin, take on all of the sin of the world and die for it one time. That is why we call him "Savior". He "saved us" from our predicament.

At some point we will die and return to God as a spirit being. The choices we made while here in the flesh, and the law we were under (some were born and died before the law was given to Moses), will determine our fate. And, since none of us, except those who know and believe in Jesus Christ, have any excuse whatsoever, the eternal damnation will be real (and is real... it is already there, it's just that God has given us this "reprieve" time period to make the choice about what (or whom) we will choose, an eternity lived with Him whereby we deny ourselves in this flesh life, or an eternity spent away from Him whereby we embrace our flesh life and wish a life not based on His teachings or promises).

Because if a person sins one time or a billion times they must still only die the one time, and because Jesus knew no sin in His life, and because He chose to die voluntarily, He could die for all sin. And for all of those who choose to accept the free gift of Jesus Christ, theirs is a life lived with Jesus Christ, back with God, for all eternity.

In short: Adam was spiritual, Adam sinned and became flesh. Since we are born into the flesh, we are also flesh, and therefore sin. God creates us spiritually and then allows us to be born here. We decide while here in the flesh who we will follow, what we will believe, and what we will do, then after we die in the flesh we return to God in the spirit to stand before Him and be judged. Because we already carried Adam's original sin, we will be cast into Hell for all eternity. There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. Only those who know Jesus Christ, or those with whom God has mercy upon and grants a pardon through grace, will be saved.

The choices we make here, despite all evidence to the contrary, are eternal, real and more important than any other decision a person can make today, even allowing a rapist to come in and kill their wife or their son.

The choice a person makes to follow and accept Jesus Christ must be a complete one. There are no "on the fence" Christians, and many who profess today to be Christians will not be saved. They will die and appear before God to be judged and they will say "Jesus, Jesus, save us" and Jesus will say to them, as He has forewarned, "I never knew you."

Eternal damnation is real. I do not have a problem with it because 1) I cannot, God set up the system, 2) when you study the Bible you will understand why God set up the system in this way, and 3) there is a way out for everyone. It is a free gift given unto mankind for all who will believe. Jesus says "Those who have an ear, let them hear."

He is calling all of you who read this post right now. All you have to do is pick up the call.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Abdullah Thx for the warm welcome bud =)

You should feel at home, there are more anti-semites than anti-Muslims on these boards!

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: RickHodgin He is calling all of you who read this post right now. All you have to do is pick up the call.

Are you speaking for God now?


None of what you said justifies eternal damnation. I see no reason why eternal torture is necessary. Are you saying God could not design a better system?

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Are you speaking for God now?

I'm conveying that which the Bible teaches. The fact that we are discussing this subject is a call. And if anyone reading this thread desires to know the truth of what I'm writing about, namely that of the love offering of Jesus Christ, then (at the very least) I have provided a jumping off point to begin a larger quest to obtain more. To deny the reality of this offering out of hand is to assert one's self in place of that reality. That condition is exactly what the Bible teaches when people get to choose for themselves, while in this world, to embrace themselves and deny any offering of a Godly way (which is salvation through Jesus Christ), or to embrace God and pursue truth with an honest heart. One leads to eternal life, the other to eternal destruction.

None of what you said justifies eternal damnation. I see no reason why eternal torture is necessary.

What justification are you looking for? Does the punishment need to fit the crime? Are you applying worldly views on an out-of-this-world (the "after life") reality? It works like this:

God, who created everything and is the author and finisher of everything, gave Adam a command. He told Adam he may eat of every tree in the garden, except of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day that Adam did eat he would surely die.

Adam knew God, understood what God told him, and then Adam chose voluntarily to disobey God. In effect (and in reality), placing his own personal wants, drives and desires above those of God's own command (given to him for his protection). By definition that is "sin". Since God had told Adam in advance what would happen if he disobeyed, and since Adam disobeyed God, we are all here.

What justification do you require? Adam disobeyed God, and unlike this transient world where rules are flexible (and therefore subject to falsehood, because they are not absolute) God's reality is not based on falsehood. His reality is truly black or white.

Are you saying God could not design a better system?

When one takes the time to understand the true meaning of what God did by giving us this "buffer" between the our sin and spiritual death, then the gift of even this evil, lie-based, flesh-and-blood world and "life" would seem beyond generous. We still have a choice, even after having made the initial choice which cast the mold of our destruction, to choose a way out. It comes through faith and accepting the offer of God through Jesus Christ. It really is that simple. As easily as it was that a single sin caused us to be heading toward eternal damnation (as we all are today), it's an equally easy choice and act to choose to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and be saved from that fate.

God's wish is not to destroy anyone, nor that any should perish in eternal damnation. For that purpose He extends many invitations to each of us so we can come to know Him while here. But here in the flesh it is very difficult for a nonbeliever to hear His calls, especially when things are going well (good job, nice house, plenty to eat and so forth and so on). There are many stories in the Bible which demonstrate the distance between the man destined to die and the return to the kingdom (the figurative man who is headed toward eternal damnation, and then is saved). The Prodigal Son is one of them.

The Bible represents a way of looking at life, and it is in the only correct way to look at it because it is God's own words as given to us through the prophets. His word backs up what He says. You cannot look anywhere in the Bible and find a contradiction when you view the Bible as a whole and from within a framework of an encompassing understanding of God's purpose as He has revealed it to us through His word. Everything backs up everything else, as it is all from one God.

However, when reading individual portions or passages without gaining an intimate knowledge of the overall whole, then there are portions which seem to be in direct contrast with other portions. The reality there is that a deeper understanding is needed.

It's very arguable that Satan has it very easy. The truth is all of us were already his when we were born. Only by casting off that which we see, experience, believe, witness and reason, and then by accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ (which in and of itself seems to go against all of those traits), can we be saved.

It is very easy not to believe because everything in this world is geared to keep you here. It is much more difficult to believe because you are, literally, walking on faith. There is no concrete proof, only spiritual feelings, and many of the feelings one gets while living a sinful life seem (at least as) real to the nonbeliever as the spiritual ones do to a believer.

Choosing Christianity, and stepping up and getting a true understanding requires a brave heart, a brave soul. You are placing your faith on something which will not be known unequivocally until after you die (or until Jesus returns), and it is a walk which this world is directly opposed to each of us making.

The choice is yours. I can only witness to you that God is real, and that Jesus Christ is the only way to achieve salvation. Everyone (everyone, everyone and everyone) who does not accept Jesus Christ, will be eternally damned (as they already are today, though living life right now in this buffer between their creation and that damnation).

[Captain Chaos]

I do not know what is meant by the punishment fitting the crime. I think a better view is to maximizine happiness. Punishment should be used in such a way as to produce the best overall outcome. Eternal punishment does not do this - and I do not see how eternal punishment fits any crime.

When one takes the time to understand the true meaning of what God did by giving us this "buffer" between the our sin and spiritual death, then the gift of even this evil, lie-based, flesh-and-blood world and "life" would seem beyond generous.

That assumes that one can choose belief. The only way I could choose belief is to lie. I honestly do not believe. I guess I could pretend to believe, would that count?

God's wish is not to destroy anyone, nor that any should perish in eternal damnation.

Yes, that is your God's wish. If he wished differently, he would design a different system.

It's very arguable that Satan has it very easy. The truth is all of us were already his when we were born.

You don't see anything a bit psychotic about that?

It is much more difficult to believe because you are, literally, walking on faith.

That sounds like lying to onself, to me.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: RickHodgin No. The Bible teaches that in everything we do we should seek an understanding. You are dismissing my claims of knoweldge as "dogma" and you may be doing so after much study, discussion, reflection, thought and then a conscious application of it all into a formed position. If so, then you are where you have chosen to be. If you have not read, studied and gained a solid comprehension of the Bible, then you are acting on your own personal beliefs, and therefore placing greater value on personal pride than on knowledge (the pride being your decision to discount Christianity and the wisdom and teachings of the Bible out of turn without having read it).

I haven’t read the bible cover to cover and I haven’t studied Christianity in any great detail. However, I am aware of the basic premises of the religion. Moral absolutism, afterlife, prophecies, free will, omniscience etc. None of these are supported by evidence and most of them contradict simple logic.

I cannot spend my life researching every religion in great detail. I can however know the basics of the religion in question, consider these ideas, and make a conclusion based on this representative knowledge of the religion. My conclusion from my knowledge of Christianity is outright rejection.

Quote by: RickHodgin Show me one place where the Bible contradicts scientific evidence and I'll show you a place where scientific evidence is incomplete.

Off the top of my head, the claim that the Earth is only ten thousand years old. This is contradicted irrefutably by science.

Quote by: RickHodgin God made you as you are. He also gave you free will.

No. Stop right there. Free will? I have the power to decide my own destiny? This is logically impossible without religion and doubly impossible in light of the teachings of Christianity.

First off, how can free will possibly exist? It is a generally accepted fact that everything we are is determined by genetics and environment. These are things outwith our control and free will can therefore not exist.

But perhaps you are saying we possess something which transcends genetics and environment. A soul perhaps? Then I ask you, where does this soul come from? According to you, God created it and gifted me with this soul. Hence, I was born with this soul as an innate part of me; a part of me which I have no control over. If this is the case, any sins I commit are a result of my “evil soul” and are outwith my control. Hence, I cannot have been created with free will.

Finally, Christianity states that God is omniscient. If he knows all, he knows that the soul he grants me will be a non believer and therefore knows that I will be doomed to go to Hell. I cannot change my destiny, since an omniscient god would already have my destiny mapped out. Hence, free will, especially in Christianity, cannot exist.

Quote by: RickHodgin I mention all of this above to convey the following: The Bible is affirmed and confirmed by The Holy Spirit connection. When we begin to believe, all of the falacies and arguable points of the Bible begin to melt away because they are not understood from the same point of view any longer. The Holy Spirit imparts unto us a revelation of knowledge which is not able to be understood by the non-believer, because it does not come from a flesh-and-blood understanding through a reasoning of the mind, but rather it comes from a much deeper place via the spiritual connection to The Holy Spirit.

And where do we learn of this holy spirit? That’s right, the bible. The bible confirms the holy spirit and the holy spirit confirms the bible. That is circular reasoning and therefore invalid.

Quote by: RickHodgin God is greater than all of us, and the Trinity which is often taught is God. There is no distinction between "God, The Father", "God, The Son" or "God, The Holy Spirit". All are God, and all are one. The concept of the "Trinity" is a way for our mind to wrap itself around the concept until we come to believe. Once we come to believe, God gives us a spiritual connection to Himself, one which transcends reason and logic (from a nonbeliever's point of view). And it is only because of that gift by God, the confirmation of The Holy Spirit and all that its presence in regards to our being, our thoughts and our actions entails, that we are able to walk and proceed with a truer understanding of the Bible's teachings than can be given by a nonbeliever's understanding alone. Great men of faith who have studied the Bible for many, many years often talk about there being three layers to the Bible. The first layer is the one everyone can understand when they read it. Jesus' teachings, for example, the parables and the Sermon on the Mount, can be understood initially by someone who reads the Bible. They don't need to have that Holy Spirit connection yet to understand what He is teaching. However, as one becomes a believer and one steps out on faith, the words begin to take on a new meaning. They convey a deeper message, and one which can only be discerned, comprehended or understood, through The Holy Spirit. That is the second layer of understanding. Connections from portions of the Bible and its teachings which previously seemed to be completely unrelated now begin to take shape. The connections affirm and confirm things in ways that a nonbeliever simply could not see or understand. However, there is a third layer of the Bible. It is one that I can honestly say I have not seen yet, although perhaps occasional glimpses of it. It is where the word itself actually comes alive and reveals itself before a true, devoted and devout believer, one who studies the Bible and focuses all of his attentions and thoughts to it, where it almost seems as though there is an entity standing before you revealing all of the truths of the universe. That layer is something that can only come through constant prayer, constant fasting, constant reflection, constant study, constant devotion. It can only come from a true, true, true desire to seek only that which is of God, and there are very few people who are called to that level. How much more there is to the Bible than its outward appearances suggest. And how foolish the knowledge of this world is when compared to the Bible and it's true understanding, explanation and revelation of what there is in store for us, God's greatest creation, that which was made in His own image. We have more power, more authority, more responsibility and have been granted more gifts than any of us could ever imagine, believe or even accept (were they all revelead to us here in the flesh). The promise of God exceeds man's wildest aspirations by many fold. And yet we (mankind in general) are content to sit here wallowing in the pig pen of the flesh, not able to see that just inside the nearby farmhouse there is a better way to live, a better way to believe and a better life to be had. It comes down to a choice for all of us. What we are seeking here, and what God has extended to us, is beyond the nonbeliever's comprehension. "Through a glass, darkly" is how we see life today. Imagine how much clearer, how much brighter, how much "more" it will be when we see it truly. If your flesh has any desires to achieve such a prize, then you owe it to yourself to give it to yourself. It is free for the taking, but it does require you follow all of the rules. Get a good understanding of the Bible, seek earnestly and you will find. The door will be opened and you will be able to sit down at the table and eat with Jesus Christ, and He with you. The rewards of that decision are beyond measure, despite the total outward appearance to the contrary here in the flesh.

*yawn*

Thank you for taking the time to explain all that but I think you are missing the point. I don’t dismiss Christianity through ignorance of its ideals; I dismiss it because there is no reason for me to accept it, and a myriad of reasons for me to reject it.

[RickHodgin]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy I haven’t read the bible cover to cover and I haven’t studied Christianity in any great detail.

Therein lies that which you are missing to be able to accept Christianity. You are denying yourself knowledge of the truth because you are unwilling to learn about it.

Also, for what it's worth, you do not have to spend years studying the Bible to have that initial walk of faith. Some people can come to believe after a single church service. Others it takes a long, long time. But, if you seek earnestly and honestly, a true understanding of the Bible, you will find salvation.