Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

republicantiger · May 16, 2006, 07:42 pm

i am a southern baptist. I believe every word the Bible says and I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Marilyn Monroe · May 16, 2006, 09:15 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Kat

was raised catholic, became disillusioned with it around early 20s, the divorce became complete around the time of the pedophile priest scandal.

i've recently had a religious reawakening due to catastrophic world events. a scenario was revealed to me which is really as simple as good vs evil and all you need is love. It wasn't a disembodied voice or anything, just a "knowing" that replaced my paranoia about how governments and the world in general operate with a contented calmness that to see the world for what it is (especially my own government) would put a person on the side of righteousness.

i've raised my children to think for themselves and make logical choices when it comes to religion. consequently, my children are non-believers. how do you think i feel now that i have to tell them i was wrong? (which i have begun to do)

it's not an organized religion i now profess to. call it being spiritually aware.

I did the same as you. Also Catholic-Non-Practicing.

CliveStaples · May 17, 2006, 01:22 am

"Spiritually aware". Gag me with a spoon.

I'm a non-denominational Protestant. I like some elements of Lutheranism, Calvinism, Baptist...ism, and *gasp* Catholicism. I particularly admire the works of Sts. Augustine and Aquinas, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Soren Kierkegaard, Carl Barth, and John Calvin.

**Jack** · May 17, 2006, 01:46 am

Quote:

I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

How come male christians can say something like that and no one takes notice, but any other person proud of their personal relationship with a person of their same sex is called a queer? A man loving another adult, unrelated man is acceptable within religion but not within society. Why's that?

Quote:

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

He is still one of my favorite authors. A beautiful writer and a beautiful man who lived an amazing life. Thomas Merton was another great writer about many subjects, not just religious topics.

Scribbler1 · May 17, 2006, 01:55 am

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

How come male christians can say something like that and no one takes notice, but any other person proud of their personal relationship with a person of their same sex is called a queer? A man loving another adult, unrelated man is acceptable within religion but not within society. Why's that?

Because that automatically makes them better than you. It's easier to put people down when you believe you have some supreme being at your back.

Of course this doesn't mean all of them, but in my experience most "born again Christians" turn out to be former drunks, drug addicts or felons. I know of no "joe averages" who have memorized the entire Bible and delight in bashing people over the heads with it.

puellamore · May 17, 2006, 12:33 pm

I became an agnostic about 45 years ago, but in the last few years, as the christians have become more and more intolerant and belligerent and insufferable, I have found myself becoming an extremely militant atheist.

Scribbler1 · May 17, 2006, 12:37 pm

I don't see how your personal beliefs, particularly the lack of them should be in any way influenced by the actions of others.

phoenix_fire · May 17, 2006, 12:50 pm

Quote:

Quote by: CliveStaples

"Spiritually aware". Gag me with a spoon.

I'm a non-denominational Protestant. I like some elements of Lutheranism, Calvinism, Baptist...ism, and *gasp* Catholicism. I particularly admire the works of Sts. Augustine and Aquinas, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Soren Kierkegaard, Carl Barth, and John Calvin.

Bonhoeffer is good. Calvin was an organizational genius. Can't say I've gotten to the others yet, but my reading list is extensive and chances are I will.

phoenix_fire · May 17, 2006, 12:51 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

I don't see how your personal beliefs, particularly the lack of them should be in any way influenced by the actions of others.

Me either. Seems like many people use that excuse, though.

CliveStaples · May 17, 2006, 01:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PF

Calvin was an organizational genius

Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Church" (if I recall the title correctly) is, as far as I've discovered, irrefutable from a Christian perspective. One should take care not to confuse Calvin with Calvinism.

puellamore · May 17, 2006, 02:31 pm

Scribbler: you may be technically correct, but what it has done is to anger me to the point where it has galvanized me to action, and in that galvanization, it has made me clarify my thinking.

I suppose that you could say I'm still an agnostic, but reasonable conjecture based on available evidence or lack thereof makes me about 99% certain that there is no supreme power. I am absolutely 100% certain that there is no "god" in the Judeo/Christian/Islam model. Such an evil sadistic jerk wouldn't permit all of the good things about this world to thrive.

Marilyn Monroe · May 17, 2006, 03:37 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

I don't see how your personal beliefs, particularly the lack of them should be in any way influenced by the actions of others.

You took the words right outta my mouth.

puellamore · May 17, 2006, 05:39 pm

Are you saying that because I am an atheist that I have no beliefs? True I don't believe in a sadistic extortionist as a supreme being, but I have arrived at a pretty strong worldview and morality based on reason and logic, not on what I've been told that I should believe.

Scribbler1 · May 17, 2006, 08:01 pm

Quote:

Quote by: puellamore

Scribbler: you may be technically correct, but what it has done is to anger me to the point where it has galvanized me to action, and in that galvanization, it has made me clarify my thinking.

I suppose that you could say I'm still an agnostic, but reasonable conjecture based on available evidence or lack thereof makes me about 99% certain that there is no supreme power. I am absolutely 100% certain that there is no "god" in the Judeo/Christian/Islam model. Such an evil sadistic jerk wouldn't permit all of the good things about this world to thrive.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying in matters of faith (and I consider atheism the same as faith as it is a belief in the NON-existence of a God) people with a strong sense of conviction are not easily swayed. You won't talk a believer out of his belief and they can't talk you out of yours. But I think there is a considerable difference between the agnostic and the atheist.

puellamore · May 18, 2006, 11:02 am

I don't think that there is. An agnostic basically says that without proof, I cannot accept the existence of a supreme deity. An atheist says that since there is no proof, logical conjecture says that there is no supreme being. Both of them reject the irrational paradigm put forth by the theistic mythologies and base their morality and worldview on logic and reason rather than traditional dogma based on ancient scribblings.

So, yes there is a difference, but I would say that in practical terms, they are pretty close to each other.

Scribbler1 · May 18, 2006, 11:22 am

Quote:

Quote by: puellamore

I don't think that there is. An agnostic basically says that without proof, I cannot accept the existence of a supreme deity. An atheist says that since there is no proof, logical conjecture says that there is no supreme being. Both of them reject the irrational paradigm put forth by the theistic mythologies and base their morality and worldview on logic and reason rather than traditional dogma based on ancient scribblings.

So, yes there is a difference, but I would say that in practical terms, they are pretty close to each other.

I agree to a point. The terms are often confused but I still believe the fundamental differences are absolute belief, absolute DISbelief and "don't think so but not positive".

Marilyn Monroe · May 18, 2006, 04:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: puellamore

I don't think that there is. An agnostic basically says that without proof, I cannot accept the existence of a supreme deity. An atheist says that since there is no proof, logical conjecture says that there is no supreme being. Both of them reject the irrational paradigm put forth by the theistic mythologies and base their morality and worldview on logic and reason rather than traditional dogma based on ancient scribblings.

So, yes there is a difference, but I would say that in practical terms, they are pretty close to each other.

In MHO most atheists/agnostics came from some sort of religion, so their morality probably did come from religion.

There are very few people running around who had no religious upbringing, or their parents had none, and parents are where morality comes from for the most part. I've seen some modern day tribes who have vague religions, and morally they are really a mess.

A good bit of the population doesn't have a lot of logic or rationality, unfortunately.

**Matt W** · May 18, 2006, 06:16 pm

So, my parents chose not to offer me any religious upbringing, and therefore I'm a moral mess? How intriguing....sounds particularly logical to me.... :rolleyes:

Marilyn Monroe · May 19, 2006, 08:04 am

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

So, my parents chose not to offer me any religious upbringing, and therefore I'm a moral mess? How intriguing....sounds particularly logical to me.... :rolleyes:

You're parents gave you a lot of their morality, and probably some of that morality came from religion. Call it religion, call it logic, call it rationality, everything you see and hear, or experience, becomes a part of you, and this will influence your particular morality. Your education, your professors, your siblings, all have influences, some you will like, some you won't. We all form our own morality, I think. Even the morality we get from religion isn't all accepted. I only accepted that which I wanted to accept. That's my view. I don't think we need religion, but we do need guidance, and in the early formative years there are influences that will probably never go away. It's kinda like brainwashing.

BIGMIKE · Jun 1, 2006, 11:30 am

I'm a jew. I follow the newer reformist movement of judaism than the ultra archconservative Orthodox model. Why? Because 1.) I like bacon, it tastes good. 2.) This is the 21st century things are different now.

Now, being a jew I don't push my beliefs onto other people. I don't "preach" it from up high. I simply am who I am. I was agnostic for the longest time. I felt and still feel for the most part that religion is bogus.

I say this because, as a child, my parents never admitted to the "jew" within the family. I was raised Southern Baptist. At 14 I sat down and read the bible. I had a notebook full of questions and the preachers had no answers. They said that it wasn't my place to question G-d's will. So I left the church.

A few years ago I got intouch with my jewish side. Read about the religion. Found that it's what I've believed in for a long time.

May 16, 2006, 07:42 pm	#861 (permalink) (top)
republicantiger republican Location: Georgia Posts: 31	religion i am a southern baptist. I believe every word the Bible says and I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

May 17, 2006, 12:37 pm	#867 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,837	I don't see how your personal beliefs, particularly the lack of them should be in any way influenced by the actions of others. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

May 18, 2006, 06:16 pm	#878 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	So, my parents chose not to offer me any religious upbringing, and therefore I'm a moral mess? How intriguing....sounds particularly logical to me.... :rolleyes: I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

May 17, 2006, 01:22 am	#863 (permalink) (top)
CliveStaples Banned: Troll Location: Oregon Posts: 170	"Spiritually aware". Gag me with a spoon. I'm a non-denominational Protestant. I like some elements of Lutheranism, Calvinism, Baptist...ism, and gasp Catholicism. I particularly admire the works of Sts. Augustine and Aquinas, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Soren Kierkegaard, Carl Barth, and John Calvin.

May 17, 2006, 12:33 pm	#866 (permalink) (top)
puellamore Molten Ash Posts: 67	I became an agnostic about 45 years ago, but in the last few years, as the christians have become more and more intolerant and belligerent and insufferable, I have found myself becoming an extremely militant atheist.

May 17, 2006, 02:31 pm	#871 (permalink) (top)
puellamore Molten Ash Posts: 67	Scribbler: you may be technically correct, but what it has done is to anger me to the point where it has galvanized me to action, and in that galvanization, it has made me clarify my thinking. I suppose that you could say I'm still an agnostic, but reasonable conjecture based on available evidence or lack thereof makes me about 99% certain that there is no supreme power. I am absolutely 100% certain that there is no "god" in the Judeo/Christian/Islam model. Such an evil sadistic jerk wouldn't permit all of the good things about this world to thrive.

May 17, 2006, 05:39 pm	#873 (permalink) (top)
puellamore Molten Ash Posts: 67	Are you saying that because I am an atheist that I have no beliefs? True I don't believe in a sadistic extortionist as a supreme being, but I have arrived at a pretty strong worldview and morality based on reason and logic, not on what I've been told that I should believe.

May 18, 2006, 11:02 am	#875 (permalink) (top)
puellamore Molten Ash Posts: 67	I don't think that there is. An agnostic basically says that without proof, I cannot accept the existence of a supreme deity. An atheist says that since there is no proof, logical conjecture says that there is no supreme being. Both of them reject the irrational paradigm put forth by the theistic mythologies and base their morality and worldview on logic and reason rather than traditional dogma based on ancient scribblings. So, yes there is a difference, but I would say that in practical terms, they are pretty close to each other.

Jun 1, 2006, 11:30 am	#880 (permalink) (top)
BIGMIKE Molten Ash Posts: 76	I'm a jew. I follow the newer reformist movement of judaism than the ultra archconservative Orthodox model. Why? Because 1.) I like bacon, it tastes good. 2.) This is the 21st century things are different now. Now, being a jew I don't push my beliefs onto other people. I don't "preach" it from up high. I simply am who I am. I was agnostic for the longest time. I felt and still feel for the most part that religion is bogus. I say this because, as a child, my parents never admitted to the "jew" within the family. I was raised Southern Baptist. At 14 I sat down and read the bible. I had a notebook full of questions and the preachers had no answers. They said that it wasn't my place to question G-d's will. So I left the church. A few years ago I got intouch with my jewish side. Read about the religion. Found that it's what I've believed in for a long time.