Your Religion

[Starboy]

What concern for god. If there is such a thing it needs no concern from me. As for morals, I think you have bought the theist party line. Morals are simply social behavior for social animals. All social animals have such behavior, caring for the young, protecting the heard or village, teaching the young. It is part of their evolution. Human social behavior is particularly advanced and is mankind’s most significant evolutionary advantage. A single man by himself no matter how intelligent can never accomplish what a thousand mediocre men can accomplish if the men work together towards a common goal. And a nation of three hundred million people working in social concert can accomplish all that much more. It is morals and other traits that allow it to happen.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Suburbanite, I brought up betrayal to show the clockwork nature by which many people become atheists.  It isn't out of free-will or anything else, just something as childish as rebellion.

Maybe for a very peculiar few, but I would think not many. No one is born religious and if they are poorly indoctrinated from childhood, become dissillusioned or just plain give up on trying to make sense of it they become agnostics or atheists.

If you have a strong belief to begin with, who are you going to rebel AGAINST? It's like saying "I am a devout Christian and I completely believe in God, but my parents are too so screw them, I'm not going to believe anymore! Ain't gonna happen.

[Starboy]

I was giving suburbanite the benifit of the doubt and assuming that the party that would feel betrayed were the parents, not the child. As you pointed out, a devoutly Christian child becoming an atheist because their parents are devoutly Christian is absurd. Certainly possible but I would suspect not very common if it happened at all.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Starboy, I was giving suburbanite the benifit of the doubt and assuming that the party that would feel betrayed were the parents, not the child. As you pointed out, a devoutly Christian child becoming an atheist because their parents are devoutly Christian is absurd. Certainly possible but I would suspect not very common if it happened at all. Starboy

I figured it was an even more unlikely possibility that a Christian family would have the PARENTS turn athiest and "betray" the child. Either way, I don't see it as anything other than a well reasoned and usually very difficult decision on an atheists part.
Religion has such a grip on people that they will turn on their closest friends and relatives over this, trading the here and now for a promise of an afterlife later. Atheists know what they are getting into but do it anyway. Considering the likely cost to themselves I have no doubt they do NOT do it just to "rebel".

(P.S. To Suburbanite. Your quotes are fixed in the previous post)

[Suburbanite]

Thanks Scrib. I think I am done here, at least for a little while, I don't feel like replying just yet, but hold out.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I was giving suburbanite the benifit of the doubt and assuming that the party that would feel betrayed were the parents, not the child. As you pointed out, a devoutly Christian child becoming an atheist because their parents are devoutly Christian is absurd. Certainly possible but I would suspect not very common if it happened at all. [/b]

Research: Child OR Teenage AND Rebellion

The psychological concept has existed since Freud and there are massive amounts of research on the subject. The connection derived from the devotion to a set of dogmatic principles is exactly what shifts during a Child’s stage of rebellion. If a household is Atheist and has no religious dogmas, it is unlikely that out of rebellion a child will convert to Christianity, unless Christianity is condemned in the household dogmatically. Contrariwise, the dogmatic nature of religion allows for children to question religion during their two adolescent stages popular science would call “rebellious”.
Christianity has an extremely strong hold on children though and without this stage it is highly unlikely that they will ever denounce their faith void a dramatic experience of very extreme proportions. Christianity is developed after the years in which sexual identity develops, making it a lot less strong a concept in the mind as homosexuality for example, though it isn’t all that far off (only one or two years where the mind develops a higher level of understanding of language).

Don’t reply to me on the subject, because a lying backhanded theist is just lying to you right now. Instead, go to google, do a lot of research, and then come back.

<!--QuoteBegin-Scribbler1,

I figured it was an even more unlikely possibility that a Christian family would have the PARENTS turn athiest and "betray" the child. Either way, I don't see it as anything other than a well reasoned and usually very difficult decision on an atheists part.
Religion has such a grip on people that they will turn on their closest friends and relatives over this, trading the here and now for a promise of an afterlife later. Atheists know what they are getting into but do it anyway. Considering the likely cost to themselves I have no doubt they do NOT do it just to "rebel".
[/quote]

The effort isn’t conscious. They aren’t James Deaning the whole thing; it is just a process of psychological development. If a child being raised as a Christian does not question his or her faith during this stage it is unlike they ever will, unless, as I said, they experience a dramatic experience of very extreme proportions. Children not raised particularly religious or exposed to a high level of religious diversity will come to grips with Atheism, if they take that route, relatively easily. I myself never had any problems with my faith. I was never harangued about it nor did it frighten me. I simply never adopted the notion of faith as a child, which I am thankful for, though I can expect a Christian to be equally as thankful for their position in life.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Starboy, I didn’t claim to be knowledgeable about philosophy, are you? I am knowledgeable about being an atheist since I have been one for over fifty years. I don’t suspect that there are that many new ideas created each year but so what. I don’t think that anyone here was claiming that their ideas were new. I don’t take the statistics as god’s word. I have seen statistics on self-professed atheists that range from .5% to 2%. But I know from personal experience that there are not that many of them in the general population.

Also, to add, I was looking in the almanac. 150 million Atheists in the world. There are only 14 million Jews. How many Jews have you run into?

[Starboy]

So is that what happened to you Suburbanite. You are actually a theist but say you are an atheist to rebel against your parents? I've raised two daughters, they are through their rebellious period but I am aware of rebellion. So what. If my daughters were never atheists or never theists then time will tell. They will go back to claiming a position consistent with what they actually think. That is if they can at least be honest with themselves. I have also experienced this. That is when the kids start thinking the dad was not such a moron after all. But of course there are people that are so disrupted by their rebellious period that they live conflicted lives till they die and for one reason or another are unable to sort it out. Then again there are those that actually have morons for parents. Which one of those are you Suburbanite?

Starboy

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Suburbanite, Also, to add, I was looking in the almanac. 150 million Atheists in the world. There are only 14 million Jews. How many Jews have you run into?

Personally or on the media? Of people that I have met in person that would say they were Jewish I can recall three. I may have met many more but didn't know it. But then where I have lived most of my life, Jews were not all that numerous. It was only until I got into physics that I encountered any that would say. How many can you recall? Now there are all sorts of TV personalities that say that they are Jewish. I can think of at least dozen or so just off the top of my head. Here is a question for you. How many atheist TV personalities do you know of? People that are popular in the media but say they are atheist?

Either atheists are as numerous as you think they are but are very oppressed by society or they are not anywhere as numerous as Jews or perhaps it is some combination of the two. In any case, the fact that you are trying to make such an argument again makes we wonder if you have any actual experience being an atheist.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

I don't think you can do a census count on atheists. I figure most of them don't talk about it. Either to avoid any problem with intolerant so-called "Christians" or they just don't think it's that big a deal.

[Starboy]

Scribbler, I agree. I have had many of those so called "Christians" shriek at me upon learning that I was an atheist. I don't bring it up. I have a friend (who is an apatheist) that is so tickled to see the shock on theists faces when they learned that I am atheist. I usually get responses like "I would have never thought you were an atheist." And then many launch into an attack on my lack of belief. They usually rattle off a long list of Christian talking points that passes for an argument and is just a long list of falsehoods and misrepresentations. I am getting very weary of it. I will say this, most Christians have very, very, very little exposures to atheists but have no problem with thinking that they know all about it. Atheists on the other hand cannot avoid knowing about Christians. It is just impossible. Even if they do not care to know about them they will get a belly full in no time. I do know that many atheists that I have met do not want to reveal their atheism to theists. But the increasing popularity of discussion boards and the almost anonymity that it brings is bringing many more of them out. It is also providing a way that they can come together and share notes. For anyone that wishes to know more about atheists I suggest that they head on over to Internet Infidels. Even though I am banned from that site for breaking the rules by being too frank I still recommend it to anyone that wants to meet and learn more about atheists.

Starboy

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So is that what happened to you Suburbanite. You are actually a theist but say you are an atheist to rebel against your parents? I've raised two daughters, they are through their rebellious period but I am aware of rebellion. So what. If my daughters were never atheists or never theists then time will tell. They will go back to claiming a position consistent with what they actually think. That is if they can at least be honest with themselves. I have also experienced this. That is when the kids start thinking the dad was not such a moron after all. But of course there are people that are so disrupted by their rebellious period that they live conflicted lives till they die and for one reason or another are unable to sort it out. Then again there are those that actually have morons for parents. Which one of those are you Suburbanite? Starboy[/b]

What? My parents are Jews. They aren’t particularly morons though they are hardly my most favorite people. I live no conflicted life; I never had a religious rebellion, so I don’t think any of those people are me. But again, please, for the sake of education, do some research; you could stand to know more on this subject.

Originally posted by Starboy,@ Personally or on the media? Of people that I have met in person that would say they were Jewish I can recall three. I may have met many more but didn't know it. But then where I have lived most of my life, Jews were not all that numerous. It was only until I got into physics that I encountered any that would say. How many can you recall? Now there are all sorts of TV personalities that say that they are Jewish. I can think of at least dozen or so just off the top of my head. Here is a question for you. How many atheist TV personalities do you know of? People that are popular in the media but say they are atheist? Either atheists are as numerous as you think they are but are very oppressed by society or they are not anywhere as numerous as Jews or perhaps it is some combination of the two. In any case, the fact that you are trying to make such an argument again makes we wonder if you have any actual experience being an atheist.

I have known several hundred Jews, but I live in LA so I think that has a lot to do with it. Atheists, I think, are far more numerous than Jews, but it isn’t out of oppression that they don’t make themselves noticed, it is because if they don’t believe in something, then there is no substance to parade around. Militant atheists are few in number, I’d agree with that. But quite and content atheists are far more numerous.

<!--QuoteBegin-Starboy,
Scribbler, I agree. I have had many of those so called "Christians" shriek at me upon learning that I was an atheist. I don't bring it up. I have a friend (who is an apatheist) that is so tickled to see the shock on theists faces when they learned that I am atheist. I usually get responses like "I would have never thought you were an atheist." And then many launch into an attack on my lack of belief. They usually rattle off a long list of Christian talking points that passes for an argument and is just a long list of falsehoods and misrepresentations. I am getting very weary of it. I will say this, most Christians have very, very, very little exposures to atheists but have no problem with thinking that they know all about it. Atheists on the other hand cannot avoid knowing about Christians. It is just impossible. Even if they do not care to know about them they will get a belly full in no time. I do know that many atheists that I have met do not want to reveal their atheism to theists. But the increasing popularity of discussion boards and the almost anonymity that it brings is bringing many more of them out. It is also providing a way that they can come together and share notes. For anyone that wishes to know more about atheists I suggest that they head on over to Internet Infidels. Even though I am banned from that site for breaking the rules by being too frank I still recommend it to anyone that wants to meet and learn more about atheists.
[/quote]

You need to get out of Florida!! You live around such rednecks; the south is not a productive place for intellectuals. Move to NYC, or Philly, I guarantee when you tell a Christian you’re an Atheist they won’t give a shit. I never get crap for being an atheist, the occasional conversion attempt, but no more common than if I were a Christian of a different form of Protestantism.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Suburbanite, You need to get out of Florida!! You live around such rednecks; the south is not a productive place for intellectuals. Move to NYC, or Philly, I guarantee when you tell a Christian you’re an Atheist they won’t give a shit. I never get crap for being an atheist, the occasional conversion attempt, but no more common than if I were a Christian of a different form of Protestantism.

I've been to all sorts of cities all over the USA and a few outside the USA. I like the countryside. Unfortunately it is common to find people of faith in the countryside.

This reminds me of a story. There was a rich eccentric from Switzerland that decided to build a center for medieval studies he called the Nautilus Center. His name was Françoise Bucher. He chose a little place populated with staunch conservative Christians called Lloyd Florida. People thought he was crazy, out of his mind. When asked why he did it he would say that if there are any people on the face of the earth that could benefit from it, it would have to be these people. So I guess I would say the same thing. If there are any people on the face of the earth that could benefit by being exposed to an atheist it would have to be these people.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Suburbanite, You need to get out of Florida!! You live around such rednecks; the south is not a productive place for intellectuals. Move to NYC, or Philly, I guarantee when you tell a Christian you’re an Atheist they won’t give a shit. I never get crap for being an atheist, the occasional conversion attempt, but no more common than if I were a Christian of a different form of Protestantism.

I wouldn't be so quick with that "guarantee". There are plenty of judgemental "mainstream" Christians. The worst offenders I have met though, are the born again christians. I have met a number of born agains who were previously drunks, drug addicts and criminals who somehow can NOW look down their noses at atheists.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Scribbler1, I have met a number of born agains who were previously drunks, drug addicts and criminals who somehow can NOW look down their noses at atheists.

Get set to encounter a whole new batch. The fearless Christian leader of Florida, Jeb Bush, has fully adopted "faith based" initiatives and the evangelicals are working over the current crop of druggies, drunks and wife beaters that inhabit Florida prisons. Praise the LORD!

Starboy

[Technosoul]

The thing is that truth that is directly relative to the moment at hand (and adjustable for each different moment of experience) is common to everyone who dares to be aware. Righteousness is simply be relatitive to what you know in right in your heart relative to what you should do or say during each moment of experience. A kind of insight which we call wisdom.

Anyone can come to know that truth that can illuminate what is true to each given experience and it matters not if you believe in a external God or some other "outside" divine source or not, or even a concept about a global memory, because it is inside and not outside anyway, and what is in you is You.

If you yearn to be honest, to see truthfully, to act correctly as you can see fit to do, without stuggle or effort, then "it" is what you got, and "it" is like the hero with many faces, it can be in anyone and all that other stuff about religion or secular beleif is just window dressing.

Technosoul's Soapbox.

[Red_Dragon18]

Why won't you answer my question people???

what is your mental projection of me???

[Suburbanite]

What do you mean?

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Red_Dragon18, Why won't you answer my question people??? what is your mental projection of me???

I had to go back three pages to find your post, but my answer is, so you're an atheist. So what? It's not only a personal thing with yourself, it also doesn't affect me either way. I would judge you on WHO you are, not what your beliefs are, or lack of same.

I hope this answers your question. I'm not sure my opinion is the same as a "mental projection". I can't read your mind or make you float around the room so I'll assume you meant opinion. :)

[Red_Dragon18]

okay Scribbler1 i get where i messed up i meant "what do you all think i look like and my age???"