Your Religion

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Look, it's all very simple - you don't believe, for whatever reason(s) that perhaps prevent you. That's fine with me - it is your right and choice, and I respect that. However, in-as-much as I and my family have experienced first hand, bore witness to, and know His power in our lives proves to us His existance. There are no sugar coated pills, no placebos, no hocus-pokus, no illusions, no tricks of magic, no magic wands, nor fantasies. It doesn't apply to everyone. Why??, I really don't know. What I do know is that through the years, I have known people who have hap-heartedly prayed and got nowhere, and yet there have been those who have realizing their position in life earnestly, and honestly prayed and received. It is inherently against "mans" nature in general to bow down to or yield to another. We primarily do not trust, and therefore resist giving our allegiance to a higher power or authority.

Being witnesses is okay, but witnesses to what. Possibly an amazing healing event which occassionally occurs under many different circumstances. In rural China I have talked to several people who testify to miracle healing events attributed to a locl wisdom. I have attended full gospel churches in West Virginia and saw both successes and failures and I do not consider it a matter of sincerity of faith.

Pooeypants: Quote: "I would like to this scientific documentation of this account please. I like stories but not when people take it as reality. As for miracles curing his niece, I'd rather put my "faith" on medical science, into the realms of reality and not the fantasy that you propose." First of all, I do not run around with TV cameras, and the like, nor keep journals full of events just so I can cram my belief down some ones' throat. That is not my right. This happens to be a very personal matter. In-as-much as this occured over twenty years ago, I am unable to provide you with the absolute documentation you wish. As far as medical science is concerned, there are still many many events that they with all their modern technology are baffled by and are unable to explain.

This is of course true, but science is much more successful, consistent and well documented on the ability to demonstrate healing in normal and extraudinary circumstance.

It is perfectly normal to request documentation. If faith healing is as successful as claimed cases should be common.

Perhaps you might be interested in a challenge?? Visit a couple of "Full Gospel" churches, maybe even a Pentecostal one. Approach the Pastor, and ask him if there have been any miraculous healings that could not be explained medically, and if it would be possible to speak with the people personally. Find out first hand, rather than attempting to prove that which you cannot disprove. Or even go to a hospital and inquire with a doctor who has experienced such an event, and ask for his/her scientific explination. Or would you just prefer to bandy back and forth???

As mention above, I have. I was also a Paramedic in this area, so I was very familiar with what was successful and what was not. The batting averages were low.

Quote: "If we could all be healed by praying to your God faithfully, why do we bother with some much funding into health care? Why bother with so many doctors and nurses? Oh and when you get an infection, you won't need bother with antibiotics, right? Just get your family to pray for you."

Well, consider the fact that the disciple Luke was a doctor. Hmmmm interesting?

So? A doctor 2000 years ago was very different from today. A doctor in those days simply watch most people die that would be healed easily today.

[Sonart]

Being witnesses is okay, but witnesses to what. Possibly an amazing healing event which occassionally occurs under many different circumstances. In rural China I have talked to several people who testify to miracle healing events attributed to a locl wisdom. I have attended full gospel churches in West Virginia and saw both successes and failures and I do not consider it a matter of sincerity of faith.

Apparently prayer has actually been studied scientifically and been found to have positive affects. Thing is, it didn't matter what religion was involved or even any religion at all. Secular meditation worked just as well.

However, I do find myself constantly getting annoyed with people who suggest in the media that prayer won them a sports championship or saved their lives in a catastrophe. I want to scream at them, demanding to know if they think God didn't like their opponent or if the 120 other people who died in the disaster weren't praying hard enough to be saved.

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo:
Quote: "Never say never"

Pray tell, why not???


Shunyadragon & Sonart & perhaps others:

Okay, don't take my word which you are in no way able to disprove, and chose to point an intellectual / scientific finger at - check out these links (I can give you more if you feel so inclined), and debate with them.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/joni.html
Joni’s Miracle Healing

http://www.ctelcom.net/morningmercies/miracleheal.html
Miracle healing and chronic illness .

http://www.anointedlinks.com/miracle.html
Do You Believe In Miracles?
(You do when they happen to you!)

[Sonart]

A. I believe that prayer/meditation has some sort of power, as yet unexplained.

B. I do not believe in "miracles" in the sense of God manifesting events.

C. I believe that all phenomena can be explained by the laws of nature, we just can't always figure out the explanation.

[PhanthomOps]

Sonart:

Well, we're getting a little closer. Did you check out those links??

[Sonart]

Yeah. Nothing much I haven't read before.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Gorgo: Quote: "Never say never" Pray tell, why not??? Shunyadragon & Sonart & perhaps others: Okay, don't take my word which you are in no way able to disprove, and chose to point an intellectual / scientific finger at - check out these links (I can give you more if you feel so inclined), and debate with them. http://www.anointedlinks.com/joni.html Joni’s Miracle Healing http://www.ctelcom.net/morningmercies/miracleheal.html Miracle healing and chronic illness . http://www.anointedlinks.com/miracle.html Do You Believe In Miracles? (You do when they happen to you!)

I have read those and there is a misunderstanding. I do not discount spiritual healing, but the evidence indicates that extraudinary or miraculous healing is not consistant and occurs over a wide spectrum of beliefs including those that do not believe in anything.

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, Gorgo: Quote: "Never say never" Pray tell, why not??? Shunyadragon & Sonart & perhaps others: Okay, don't take my word which you are in no way able to disprove, and chose to point an intellectual / scientific finger at - check out these links (I can give you more if you feel so inclined), and debate with them. http://www.anointedlinks.com/joni.html Joni’s Miracle Healing http://www.ctelcom.net/morningmercies/miracleheal.html Miracle healing and chronic illness . http://www.anointedlinks.com/miracle.html Do You Believe In Miracles? (You do when they happen to you!)

Mr PO, do you know we've got apparent records of Cold fusion?
You see, scientific means to be reproducible/independently verified. I can find sites that tell me dinosaurs never existed and they're just work of the devil.
PS Those sites are quite amateurish.

Fortunately, I'm not that gullible and I don't see anything on those sites as any more than descriptions of placebos or outlandish hoaxes. If miracles did happen as much as you're trying to make it out, then funny it is also that they occur most in the USA where the most fundementalists reside rather than in a more secular nation like the UK where miracles would benefit in perhaps converting people.

[kellbing]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps [b kellbing: Quote: "By the way, I have a question for my fellow atheists out there. When you hear someone say something like "praise the lord" or something similar, does it make your stomach turn just a little? I know I have a hard time not rolling my eyes." I have a question for you - have you ever said "Oh my God"?, or "godd--n it"?. or perhaps "only God knows"? - or perhaps some of your Atheist friends say anything like this?? If so, why?????[/b]

I answered this question in another thread in the past. Atheists may use such phrases as "Oh my god" because they are commonly used expressions. Just as people often say things such as "you know" or "no kidding". They are in no way an expression of belief in a god. I personally don't use a phrase such as "only god knows" because I don't believe there is a god to know anything. Using such phrases as an expletive or expression of surprise is not the same thing as saying "god bless you" or "go with god".

[Gorgo]

I'm more careful of all of the words that I use. I never say never and always refrain from using the word always.

I try not to use words like "hate" which tend to change the way that I look at things as much as it comes from the way I look at things.

I try not to say things I don't really mean, like using the 'f' word, as I usually don't want to have sex with the things that I'm talking about when I use it. I try not to use the word 'god' as I try not to promote the rejection of reality.

I say try, because some old habits are hard to break.

As to the question of whether something turns my stomach. If I understand the question, no, I try to understand where people are coming from when they say what they say.

I do smile when I hear "God Bless You." A friend of mine said that once, and I asked, "you can tell him to do that?" He didn't like that, so I haven't asked anyone that since.

[Paavo]

A friend of mine said that once, and I asked, "you can tell him to do that?"

Hahaha, great.

[Bolsheviki]

I'm a Deist- don't get many of us anywhere these days. My friends are Benjamin Franklin and to some degree, Sir Isaac Newton. I believe in the Judeo-Christian God, I just can't merely accept the existence of a supreme deity based upon the teachings of a book. I claim to have A posteriori and A priori knowledge of God's existence, but you won't get me sharing my proofs until I have a PhD and my own personal library. I would be a Christian if it wasn't for the Christians. I was a Christian until I bothered to listen to the Christians.

[bishop]

i'm catholic, born and raised..

although i have to admit - i like hinduism the best.. it's extremely flexible, offering a wide variety of ways to worship. it can also be monotheistic or polytheistic.

so, i can still be a christian, but through a hindu perspective..

if that makes any sense to you.

[mrmufin]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhanthomOps,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>First let me say to you and msmufin how deeply sorry I am to hear about Laura, and I pray that somehow God will perform a miracle in her life, and restore her to full health.[/b]

Thank you for your kind wishes.

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhanthomOps,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I honestly am, however, unable to answer the question as to why does God allow??[/b]

The fact that sometimes really bad things happen to happen to good persons leads me to question the ethical integrity of an allegedly omnipotent deity. I see three plausible scenarios: a) the deity is all-powerful but elects not to intervene (a.k.a willful negligence), b) the deity is not actually omnipotent (in which case I wouldn't fear it), c) the deity doesn't exist, at least not as described. I s'pose there is another possibility, but I'll leave John Prine out of this for now. Lack of coherent and impartial data should preclude us from drawing early conclusions about which theory best matches the evidence, or lack thereof.

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, (Tom)told us that a little over a year prior to our retreat his daughter became gravely ill, she had a temperature of 103, and the doctors after performing all the tests they could think of just said "we don't know". After three days she sliped into a coma and her temperature rose to 103.5. ... They called in the doctors who checked her out, looked at each other and Tom and his wife and said "we can't explain it, it defies all medical knowledge and explination".

Okay. I just spliced the text a little bit so that, "we don't know" and "we can't explain it" aren't so far apart.
<!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,@
Tom said ... this had been the only way God could get his attention.[/quote]
I bet if I was omnipotent, I could've come up with a whole bunch of ways of getting Tom's attention without imposing life-threatening symptoms on a loved one.
<!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,
Again, I will keep Laura in my prayers, as that is in reality all that I can do. Please give her my best wishes if you feel it appropiate.[/quote]
Thank you. Your kindness is noted and appreciated.

Regards,
mrmufin

I'm a christian. Although... in school we did a unit on religion, and hinduism sounds might attractive... sex being one of the four essential parts of life.

But I'm still Christian ("Church of Christ"... may sound kinda boring. I guess when they were thinking of a name, they just stole the one out of Romans-- Romans 16:16 - Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you. )

[Scribbler1]

Wow, a long thread if there ever was one. I just stumbled in on this and see some names I don't recognize, so I'll add my three cents (although I've posted this before elsewhere).

My religion is, I have none, and haven't had religion for a very long time. Ordinarily, I keep this to myself as I believe atheism is as personal as anyone's religion and I don't like it when christians wear their faith like a badge any more than I like the "media atheists" blathering about the nonexistance of God.

I have tried to justify my lack of faith by asking any cleric of any religion I could find some questions which have been on my mind for years. Still asking.

Also, to answer the question of whether my stomach turns or not when someone mentions God, I have to answer it does not. In fact, I support any religion or faith which gives one strength or comfort in tough times. It just doesn't work for me. The believers don't offend me, although it's a pity I offend them.

I just can't hang my hat on any belief system which professes a loving and benevolent supreme being, yet that same being allows his own creations to endure so much pain and suffering, as many innocents in this world do. I don't accept the contradictions of a god who is constantly stymied by his own creation (Satan) or who doesn't show himself to the non believers who he supposedly gave the power of choice to in the first place (really showing up, not metaphorically).
I happily exist without benefit of a religion and have learned to take full responsibility for my many screw ups, not having the advantage of having a devil to blame things on. But I take full credit for anything I do right! I believe religion was created by Man to help deflect the fear of the unknown after death and I comfortably accept the fact that I am going nowhere when I die. I am satisfied that I have whatever years remain for me and can make the best of them with few regrets.
I wish the best for all humanity. I hope for peace and freedom from misery.


(sorry, I came in late and just wanted to try and post to the original question.)

I like how scribbler has addressed the issue, although I have once asked the questions he has and I found resolution to them. I still respect your attitude towards the issue. I'm a believer but I find it hard to reflect my new beliefs when others input incorrect statements. The pain and suffering to the innocent was a big thorn in my side too. For a full explanation I recommend "A Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel who addresses that very issue with numerous philosophers. You have to understand that no one in this world is truly innocent, we have all sinned and will sin. So good people will never measure up to the level we should be. Pain and suffering exists, but is it God that caused that? Your remark would most likely be "No, but he could stop it." Which is true but then free will is no longer one of our traits. If God did intercede all time there would be no reason for our freedom. The other remark you made about humans making up God to fill their empty souls, this is something I hear quite often. I find it hard to believe that humans were capable of such convincing writing and preaching without some sort of tangable evidence. The credibility of the bible is gaining everyday. Did you know historians had no evidence of King David(from the bible) until 1998. The tablet found was perfectly in sink with the bible. As well as the Tower of Babel and many other writings in the bible. So I regard the quote "humans search to fill their emptiness" a little too surperfluous.

[sixmillman]

I have my own religion based on the Old Testament. I believe that only Moses was and is the true messenger of God. I believe in the tactics of Zionism because God himself used his power to politically motivate people.


QUOTE
Acts 7:35: Moses is the one who was rejected by the people of Israel. 'Who made you ruler and judge over us?' they asked. He is the one whom God sent to rule the people and set them free with the help of the angel who appeared to him in the burning bush.


QUOTE
Exodus 4:21: The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.


You see even though the Lord had the power himself to make Pharaoh free the people of Israel, He did not. Instead he hardened the heart of Pharaoh in order to set up the confrontation with Moses, so that Moses could be known by all as the messenger of God.


QUOTE
Exodus 6:1: Then the LORD said to Moses, "Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land."


God did not forsake Moses. He directed Moses and his brother prophet Aaron in his own methods of compulsion


QUOTE
Exodus 7:19: Then the LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, `Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their rivers, over their streams, and over their pools, and over all their reservoirs of water, that they may become blood; and there will be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood and in vessels of stone.' "


QUOTE
Exodus 8:5: Then the LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, `Stretch out your hand with your staff over the rivers, over the streams and over the pools, and make frogs come up on the land of Egypt.' "


QUOTE
Exodus 30:20: when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the LORD.


QUOTE
Leviticus 2:2: `He shall then bring it to Aaron's sons the priests; and shall take from it his handful of its fine flour and of its oil with all of its frankincense. And the priest shall offer it up in smoke as its memorial portion on the altar, an offering by fire of a soothing


QUOTE
Isaiah 4:5:.. and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy.


I choose to interpret the Burning Bush as marijuana. As such my religion chooses to believe that partaking is part of our sacrament. It reminds us of our covenant with God and furthers our connection to him.

I have seen people taking the sacrament in the day, the embers on joints end are invisible as the smoke drifts around them as a canopy, and I have seen the night where the smoke is invisible and the embers glow red of fire.

Now do you think we can apply for Tax-exempt status? Can we be free in America to worship God in our own way without being martyred / busted at the alter of my own church?

Dictionairy.com says:
Frank"in*cense\, n. [OF. franc free, pure + encens incense.] A fragrant, aromatic resin, or gum resin, burned as an incense in religious rites or for medicinal fumigation. The best kinds now come from East Indian trees, of the genus Boswellia; a commoner sort, from the Norway spruce (Abies excelsa) and other coniferous trees. The frankincense of the ancient Jews is still unidentified.

[Sonart]

Also, to answer the question of whether my stomach turns or not when someone mentions God, I have to answer it does not. In fact, I support any religion or faith which gives one strength or comfort in tough times. It just doesn't work for me. The believers don't offend me, although it's a pity I offend them.

My position exactly, and from what I've read, not all that uncommon among atheists, despite having been vilified all our lives. Why does that seem to say something to me?

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Sonart, My position exactly, and from what I've read, not all that uncommon among atheists, despite having been vilified all our lives. Why does that seem to say something to me?

I don't think we worry too much about vilification (usually) because most of us are "live and let live" types of people. I have noticed that an awful lot of Christians (the quiet ones who also feel their belief if their own business) feel no fear or threat from atheists. I will start to worry when the loudmouth bigots get the power to plug in the electrodes. But as long as they still lack the power to "reeducate" the foul nonbelievers, I will still be okay with religion.

BTW, good post, Six.