Your Religion

[mrmufin]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhanthomOps,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>mrmufin:Quote: "Nor are the husband and wife omnipotent and omniscient. That's a HUGE difference; thus, an invalid analogy." Not really, it's in human terms as an example for illustration in an attempt for you see the similarities.[/b]

Your original statement had to do with a husband and wife electiing to have a child even though they were aware that the child would most likely do things that would not please the parents. If the parents were omnipotent, they should have the capacity to prevent bad things from happening to the child. Having that capacity and electing not to use it --to the detriment of the child-- would make it very difficult for me to categorize the parents as fully loving. Without highlighting this fundamental discrepancy, the analogy falls short of useful, IMO.

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhanthomOps,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Let's bring it down to Earth, is it possible for you, I or anyone else to fully know and understand the mind of another????? I think you would agree with me that the answer is no.[/b]

No, it is not possible for me to fully understand the mind of another. Since you like to put things in Earthly, human terms (when convenient, at least), the fact that I can detect other physical beings and distinguish their actions from my own and other natural events, I at least have some basis to make useful assumptions. The closer my physical proximity to the very lovely msmufin, for example, greatly aids in my ability to regard her behavior as sincere. However, earlier in our relationship I had to travel quite a bit for business purposes and at those times it would have been much easier for her to deceive me. Had we never met face to face, I suspect I could have been very easily deceived by her about a great many things. Thus, I find it difficult to fathom having any sort of meaningful relationship with something impossible to observe. Your mileage may vary.

<!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,@
Then is it safe to exclude the possibility of their existance???[/quote]
My lack of belief in gods is not based upon the possibility that gods may be deceptive.

<!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,
However, for those of us who have in fact experienced God's mercy, love and Hand in our lives, the only deception we have to worry about is from Satin.[/quote]
I, uh, suspect you mean "Satan", rather than "Satin"...

Regards,
mrmufin

[Gorgo]

boney's high on china white, shorty found a punk,
don't you know there ain't
no devil, there's just god when he's drunk,
well this stuff will probably kill
you, let's do another line,
what you say you meet me down
on heartattack and vine.

see that little jersey girl in the see-through top,
with the peddle pushers sucking on a soda pop,
well i bet she's still a virgin
but it's only twenty-five 'til nine,
you can see a million of 'em
on heartattack and vine.

better off in iowa against your scrambled eggs,
than crawling down cahuenga on a broken pair of legs,
you'll find your ignorance is blissful every goddamn time,
you're waitin' for the rtd on heartattack and vine.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Gorgo, boney's high on china white, shorty found a punk, don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk, well this stuff will probably kill you, let's do another line, what you say you meet me down on heartattack and vine. see that little jersey girl in the see-through top, with the peddle pushers sucking on a soda pop, well i bet she's still a virgin but it's only twenty-five 'til nine, you can see a million of 'em on heartattack and vine. better off in iowa against your scrambled eggs, than crawling down cahuenga on a broken pair of legs, you'll find your ignorance is blissful every goddamn time, you're waitin' for the rtd on heartattack and vine.

Interesting poem.

The US sounds depressing from my point of view in China.

[Gorgo]

I was writing more of the Tom Waits song in MrMuffin's sig.

Maybe you could start a thread on what aspects of other countries are better than the US.

[mrmufin]

Originally posted by Gorgo, boney's high on china white, shorty found a punk, don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk, well this stuff will probably kill you, let's do another line, what you say you meet me down on heartattack and vine.

Ha!

I had Heartattack and Vine on vinyl years ago; it was probably one of the last albums I bought. Problem was... I haven't had a turntable for nearly fifteen years. I had that song in my head for about two weeks and I finally got around to getting it on CD last weekend. I've been driving the very lovely msmufin crazy with it; she HATES Tom Waits.

Early in our relationship I used to read msmufin stories from Charles Bukowski's Hot Water Music so I forewarned her that Tom Waits is to music what Charles Bukowski is to literature. Not that that increased her enjoyment of the CD any...

Regards,
mrmufin

[PhanthomOps]

mrmufin:
Quote: "Your original statement had to do with a husband and wife electiing to have a child even though they were aware that the child would most likely do things that would not please the parents. If the parents were omnipotent, they should have the capacity to prevent bad things from happening to the child. Having that capacity and electing not to use it --to the detriment of the child-- would make it very difficult for me to categorize the parents as fully loving. Without highlighting this fundamental discrepancy, the analogy falls short of useful, IMO."

Parents are not omnipotent, however, it is inherent human nature to be rebellious, and resist authority. In-as-much as my wife and I raised four children, our prior knowledge that they would have to be corrected, punished, etc., did not stop us, or prevent us from loving them as best as we could, and dealing with the situation as it arose.
It is unreasonable for any parent to even think they can prevent bad things from happening to their child/children.

Quote: "I, uh, suspect you mean "Satan", rather than "Satin"..."

You are correct, please forgive my spelling error :) :)

[kellbing]

The one thing you seem to be forgetting is that parents don't have the ability to design their children to be perfect and do nothing wrong. Your supposed "god" does. He just chooses not to.

[mrmufin]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhanthomOps,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Parents are not omnipotent, however, it is inherent human nature to be rebellious, and resist authority.[/b]

Because God made us that way?

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,@ In-as-much as my wife and I raised four children, our prior knowledge that they would have to be corrected, punished, etc., did not stop us, or prevent us from loving them as best as we could, and dealing with the situation as it arose.

We agree about your non-onimptoence. However, having the alleged capacity of omnipotence --which is a popular property of God-- would allow God to prevent a great deal of suffering, be it a scraped elbow or epilepsy. To have that capacity and not use it (at least not in any verifiable way), is something I find ethically troublesome. If you could have prevented your child from any suffering or abuse that s/he endured, be it measles, a schoolyard bully, or diarrhea on prom nite, would you have prevented it?
<!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,
It is unreasonable for any parent to even think they can prevent bad things from happening to their child/children.[/quote]
Unless the parent is omnipotent.

Regards,
mrmufin

BTW, haven't seen ya round for a while. Everything cool?

[Gorgo]

He claims he has a life outside Volconvo! Ain't that a trip!!

[FIFI]

I was raised Roman Chatholic, but as I grew, I just did not feel that the church I was rasied in was right for me. At about 14 I told my parents this... and I stopped going at 16. I now find myself mixing beliefes sometimes, because I am searching for one that is right for me. But I don't really spend alot of my life searching or worrying... it will come as it comes.
Now as for other religions... as long as your not burning down houses or killing puppies for satan :)
I don't really mind. I have many friends from many religions...
LOL. Where else except for my highschool would you see and atheist, scientologist, baptist, chatholic, wiccan, pagan and protisant hang out and eat luch?
(PS. Sorry for the spelling errors, I just got off work and I am tired)

[PhanthomOps]

kellbing:
Quote: "The one thing you seem to be forgetting is that parents don't have the ability to design their children to be perfect and do nothing wrong. Your supposed "god" does. He just chooses not to."

Parents do not design their children like one would design a dress or car. However, they are able to through love to help mold the child's thinking and reasoning abilities, etc., in order that the child is prepared and able to face life. My wife's and my belief and faith in God has given us a basis with which to perform this task with good results.

God gives us the ability, as it our responsibility for bringing the child into the world.

mrmufin:
Quote: "We agree about your non-onimptoence. However, having the alleged capacity of omnipotence --which is a popular property of God-- would allow God to prevent a great deal of suffering, be it a scraped elbow or epilepsy. To have that capacity and not use it (at least not in any verifiable way), is something I find ethically troublesome. If you could have prevented your child from any suffering or abuse that s/he endured, be it measles, a schoolyard bully, or diarrhea on prom nite, would you have prevented it?"

Absolutely not. Adversity, trials, tribulations and the like, although unpleasant to experience go toward building character making us a better person able to handle such in the future. If a parent, for reasons other than medical, wraps their child/children in cotton, and constantly engineers activities so as to prevent the child from a scraped knee, or elbow, how is the child/children going to survive after the parents die???

Quote: "Unless the parent is omnipotent.:)"

I'm glad that I am not. It would prove to be too much power that I as a human being do not feel competent to handle.

Gorgo:
Quote: "He claims he has a life outside Volconvo! Ain't that a trip!!"

God, you do have a sense of humor after all. Care to be a fly on the wall?? :) :)

FIFI:

I appreciate your openness and the fact that you are able to freely associate with those of varying religions and backgrounds, and not feel threatened.

IMHO, you may sometime in the future feel that you wish to allign yourself with a religious belief. Might I suggest that should you find yourself in this position that you take it slow and easy. Visit a few different churches of various faiths, ask questions, get to know some of the people and then after much thought make your decision - yes or no.

[PhanthomOps]

mrmufin:
Quote: "BTW, haven't seen ya round for a while. Everything cool?"

Please accept my appology for not answering your question in my last post.

Everything is great. My wife and I have been separated (not legally) for the past couple of years. We have been talking for quite a while now about getting back together, and our personal relationship has greatly improved. Let's face it 42 years of marriage this November is not something you want to turn your back on.

My 18 year old son and 20 year old daughter have been living with her. Within the next two months we will be together again.

Gorgo: FYI See Above :) :)

[mrmufin]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhanthomOps,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>mrmufin: Quote: "If you could have prevented your child from any suffering or abuse that s/he endured, be it measles, a schoolyard bully, or diarrhea on prom nite, would you have prevented it?" Absolutely not. Adversity, trials, tribulations and the like, although unpleasant to experience go toward building character making us a better person able to handle such in the future.[/b]

Wow. Our niece, Laura, is twenty-three years old and a victim of multiple sclerosis and epilepsy. If there was anything at all about her conditions which is beneficial to her, it is completely escaping me at the moment. She will most likely never get to see all the wonderful things which are not handicap-accessible. She will most likely never get to use the restroom without assistance, nor ever be able to entirely care for herself, or drive, or live without a guardian. Sorry, but I see nothing about her condition which benefits her in any way.

Originally posted by PhanthomOps,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhanthomOps,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If a parent, for reasons other than medical, wraps their child/children in cotton, and constantly engineers activities so as to prevent the child from a scraped knee, or elbow, how is the child/children going to survive after the parents die???[/b]

What about having the capacity to protect from debilitating circumstances brought upon by no action of their own? Say, cerebral palsy?

<!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,@
I'm glad that I am not [omnipotent]. It would prove to be too much power that I as a human being do not feel competent to handle.[/quote]
Hmmm... I guess I won't be petitioning for you should God ever decide to retire.

<!--QuoteBegin-PhanthomOps,
My 18 year old son and 20 year old daughter have been living with her. Within the next two months we will be together again.
[/quote]
Good for you. I hope things work out well for you.

Regards,
mrmufin

[PhanthomOps]

mrmufin:
Quote: "Wow. Our niece, Laura, is twenty-three years old and a victim of multiple sclerosis and epilepsy. If there was anything at all about her conditions which is beneficial to her, it is completely escaping me at the moment. She will most likely never get to see all the wonderful things which are not handicap-accessible. She will most likely never get to use the restroom without assistance, nor ever be able to entirely care for herself, or drive, or live without a guardian. Sorry, but I see nothing about her condition which benefits her in any way."

First let me say to you and msmufin how deeply sorry I am to hear about Laura, and I pray that somehow God will perform a miracle in her life, and restore her to full health. I honestly am, however, unable to answer the question as to why does God allow??

This may not help, and I can't say it is the answer, but let me tell you anyway, and it is a true account.

In 1977 I was founding president of a chapter of the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International, and my wife and I attended a married couples retreat in 1982 held by the organization at Lake George, New York. There were approximately 1400 of us.

One of our International Directors (Tom)told us that a little over a year prior to our retreat his daughter became gravely ill, she had a temperature of 103, and the doctors after performing all the tests they could think of just said "we don't know". After three days she sliped into a coma and her temperature rose to 103.5. Of course it goes without saying that Tom and his wife were beside themselves.

Tom was a very successful businessman and being hands-on in his company kept him extremely occupied. Both Tom and his wife have a very deep and abiding faith in God, and they had been praying - as Tom put it in the regular way.

Well at the point of utter dispair, Tom through his hands up, dropped to his knees and cried himself out while praying fervently for what he said must have been two to three hours. Part of his prayer was for God to take him and spare his daughter. His wife had also been praying. She felt what she said was a hand on her shoulder (no one around) and the urging to go to her daughter, she went over and touched her forehead, and cried out "Praise the Lord", her fever is gone. Their daughter opened her eyes and asked "what's wrong?". They called in the doctors who checked her out, looked at each other and Tom and his wife and said "we can't explain it, it defies all medical knowledge and explination".

Two days later Tom was praying and reading his Bible, when he had the overwhellming sensation to read about Abraham's availability and obedience to God. Tom said that at that point he realized that his business had inadvertently become his god, and that he had been neglecting his time with God, and his family, and that this had been the only way God could get his attention. Both Tom and his wife told us that they held no ill will toward God because of what happened.

Quote: "Hmmm... I guess I won't be petitioning for you should God ever decide to retire. :)"

That's perfectly understandable, besides I have enough of my own problems to deal with - and in no-manner-shape-way or form would I want to have to deal with what God has to daily.

Quote: "Good for you. I hope things work out well for you."

Thank you very much, I appreciate your warm wishes. By the way, our getting back together would not have been possible without God's help. In-and-of ourselver we had been like two cats with their tails tied together and strung over a line.

I can't say it works for everyone, because I know it doesn't. However, in my family's and my life God has worked wonders in more ways that one.

Again, I will keep Laura in my prayers, as that is in reality all that I can do. Please give her my best wishes if you feel it appropiate.

[Gorgo]

We can look at the best no matter what. That has nothing to do with god(s). Everything exists as it is. I wasn't born with wings? Should I bitch and moan about that, or use what I have? That doesn't mean that we don't try for better. None of that has anything to do with gods. People get better, people get worse. None of that has anything to do with prayer or god(s), except for placebo.

All the best P.O. I got me one of them dee-vorces a few years back. It ain't no fun. Remarried now and glad I did it, but difficult then. Not bad, just difficult. Lots of kids and grandkids now. At least 30 dozen kids and dogs and cats.

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, My 18 year old son and 20 year old daughter have been living with her. Within the next two months we will be together again. Gorgo:  FYI  See Above :) :)

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, First let me say to you and msmufin how deeply sorry I am to hear about Laura, and I pray that somehow God will perform a miracle in her life, and restore her to full health. I honestly am, however, unable to answer the question as to why does God allow?? This may not help, and I can't say it is the answer, but let me tell you anyway, and it is a true account. In 1977 I was founding president of a chapter of the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International, and my wife and I attended a married couples retreat in 1982 held by the organization at Lake George, New York. There were approximately 1400 of us. One of our International Directors (Tom)told us that a little over a year prior to our retreat his daughter became gravely ill, she had a temperature of 103, and the doctors after performing all the tests they could think of just said "we don't know". After three days she sliped into a coma and her temperature rose to 103.5. Of course it goes without saying that Tom and his wife were beside themselves. Tom was a very successful businessman and being hands-on in his company kept him extremely occupied. Both Tom and his wife have a very deep and abiding faith in God, and they had been praying - as Tom put it in the regular way. Well at the point of utter dispair, Tom through his hands up, dropped to his knees and cried himself out while praying fervently for what he said must have been two to three hours. Part of his prayer was for God to take him and spare his daughter. His wife had also been praying. She felt what she said was a hand on her shoulder (no one around) and the urging to go to her daughter, she went over and touched her forehead, and cried out "Praise the Lord", her fever is gone. Their daughter opened her eyes and asked "what's wrong?". They called in the doctors who checked her out, looked at each other and Tom and his wife and said "we can't explain it, it defies all medical knowledge and explination". Two days later Tom was praying and reading his Bible, when he had the overwhellming sensation to read about Abraham's availability and obedience to God. Tom said that at that point he realized that his business had inadvertently become his god, and that he had been neglecting his time with God, and his family, and that this had been the only way God could get his attention. Both Tom and his wife told us that they held no ill will toward God because of what happened.

I would like to this scientific documentation of this account please. I like stories but not when people take it as reality.
As for miracles curing his niece, I'd rather put my "faith" on medical science, into the realms of reality and not the fantasy that you propose.

If we could all be healed by praying to your God faithfully, why do we bother with some much funding into health care? Why bother with so many doctors and nurses? Oh and when you get an infection, you won't need bother with antibiotics, right? Just get your family to pray for you. :rolleyes:

[kellbing]

I remember one time when I was a kid. I had to sneeze and didn't want to, so I asked "god" to stop it. I didn't sneeze. I took that as evidence that there really was a god. Then I got older and wiser and realized it was just mind over matter.

As gorgo mentioned, there is a lot to be said about the placebo effect. I believe the mind and body can do amazing things all on their own. Maybe the doctors couldn't explain how the little girl got better, but that isn't proof that god did it. It just shows that we still have more to learn in the medical field.

[kellbing]

By the way, I have a question for my fellow atheists out there. When you hear someone say something like "praise the lord" or something similar, does it make your stomach turn just a little? I know I have a hard time not rolling my eyes.

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo:
Quote: "We can look at the best no matter what. That has nothing to do with god(s). Everything exists as it is. I wasn't born with wings? Should I bitch and moan about that, or use what I have? That doesn't mean that we don't try for better. None of that has anything to do with gods. People get better, people get worse. None of that has anything to do with prayer or god(s), except for placebo."

Look, it's all very simple - you don't believe, for whatever reason(s) that perhaps prevent you. That's fine with me - it is your right and choice, and I respect that. However, in-as-much as I and my family have experienced first hand, bore witness to, and know His power in our lives proves to us His existance. There are no sugar coated pills, no placebos, no hocus-pokus, no illusions, no tricks of magic, no magic wands, nor fantasies.

Whether you or anyone else because of non-belief and/or non-experience choose to question and/or deny His existance for whatever reason, in no way changes my position, and as a matter of fact never will - that is my right and choice.

It doesn't apply to everyone. Why??, I really don't know. What I do know is that through the years, I have known people who have hap-heartedly prayed and got nowhere, and yet there have been those who have realizing their position in life earnestly, and honestly prayed and received.
It is inherently against "mans" nature in general to bow down to or yield to another. We primarily do not trust, and therefore resist giving our allegiance to a higher power or authority.

Quote: "All the best P.O. I got me one of them dee-vorces a few years back. It ain't no fun. Remarried now and glad I did it, but difficult then. Not bad, just difficult. Lots of kids and grandkids now. At least 30 dozen kids and dogs and cats."

Gorgo, thank you very much for your kind wishes, I do appreciate them :) :)
Well, we have 4 adult children, 3 grand-children, and personally 2 cats, and that is quite a handful.
I wish you all the best with your "tribe", it really sounds like fun.


Pooeypants:
Quote: "I would like to this scientific documentation of this account please. I like stories but not when people take it as reality.
As for miracles curing his niece, I'd rather put my "faith" on medical science, into the realms of reality and not the fantasy that you propose."

First of all, I do not run around with TV cameras, and the like, nor keep journals full of events just so I can cram my belief down some ones' throat. That is not my right. This happens to be a very personal matter. In-as-much as this occured over twenty years ago, I am unable to provide you with the absolute documentation you wish.

As far as medical science is concerned, there are still many many events that they with all their modern technology are baffled by and are unable to explain.

Perhaps you might be interested in a challenge?? Visit a couple of "Full Gospel" churches, maybe even a Pentecostal one. Approach the Pastor, and ask him if there have been any miraculous healings that could not be explained medically, and if it would be possible to speak with the people personally. Find out first hand, rather than attempting to prove that which you cannot disprove. Or even go to a hospital and inquire with a doctor who has experienced such an event, and ask for his/her scientific explination.

Or would you just prefer to bandy back and forth???

Quote: "If we could all be healed by praying to your God faithfully, why do we bother with some much funding into health care? Why bother with so many doctors and nurses? Oh and when you get an infection, you won't need bother with antibiotics, right? Just get your family to pray for you."

Well, consider the fact that the disciple Luke was a doctor. Hmmmm interesting?

It doesn't apply to everyone. Why??, I really don't know. I guess perhaps the same reason why some people are not cured of cancer, while others are. What I do know is that through the years, I have known people who have hap-heartedly prayed and got nowhere, and yet there have been those who have realizing their position in life earnestly, and honestly prayed and received.
It is inherently against "mans" nature in general to bow down to or yield to another. We primarily do not trust, and therefore resist giving our allegiance to a higher power or authority.

kellbing:
Quote: "By the way, I have a question for my fellow atheists out there. When you hear someone say something like "praise the lord" or something similar, does it make your stomach turn just a little? I know I have a hard time not rolling my eyes."

I have a question for you - have you ever said "Oh my God"?, or "godd--n it"?.
or perhaps "only God knows"? - or perhaps some of your Atheist friends say anything like this?? If so, why?????

[Gorgo]

Never say never:

http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/?t=lostfaith.txt

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, ...in no way changes my position, and as a matter of fact never will - that is my right and choice.