To Muslims

[GoldPheonix]

I'm pretty certain there were some Muslims names on the Religion thread I saw a month ago.


I am just interested in hearing what Muslims have to say on the current issues such as the media's limited portrayal of the concept of the Jihad, misunderstanding the translation of "Islam", the War in Iraq, the al-Queda bombings, the Hezbollah bombings a month ago, and things of such nature.

What are your thoughts?

(To Westerners: I know we all have stong feelings about Islam one way or the other, but I think it's time for a fresh look at things, and none of our views aer fresh by any means. I know I can't enforce this, but it would be much appreciated.)

[Kuldeep]

I am not a Muslim and also have not read Holy Quran in detail. From common sense, I can only say no real righteous person, Prophet or any noble person could dictate direction for innocent killings... may it be even for so called Jihad.

[russell]

^^ pointless post, he asked nicely that you not waste anyone's time with such nonsense. why not respect his request?

[Apologist]

It's a little ridiculous. Their response on this web site seems to be the same across the world. They, being the Muslim community around the world, have not stood up and done enough about this extremist group. I have a few Muslim friends, most are from Egypt, and they definitely do not endorse the actions of these individuals. There has been one group in Great Britain of about 400 or 500 who signed a petition saying they do not condone what is happening among this current extremist crusade. However, the main line consensus seems to be that they attack the pope for making a quote over 600 years old about Muslim violence and yet do practically nothing to denounce the main aggressors.

[GoldPheonix]

Yeah, which is part of my problems. Muslims refuse to get rid of corrupt members in their holy community, and yet they still hold on to the teachings of Mohammud... And then they don't say anything and it makes them look worse.

Kuldeep, thanks for reading the OP.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: russell ^^ pointless post, he asked nicely that you not waste anyone's time with such nonsense. why not respect his request?

There are few "pointless posts" on this forum. If it bothers you so much there are a lot of other threads you can post in. You aren't forced to participate in this, or any other thread.

[Marconius]

I dont see why Muslims are expected to police their ranks better than anyone else does.

I don't really see Christians call out their fellow Christians when they do things against their religion. They either see nothing wrong with it or they say those people weren't real Christians.

I am not a Muslim so feel free to disregard.

[GoldPheonix]

Marc --it's not that. It's that this group isn't necessarily dividing themselves from terrorists. Now, I certainly don't feel that all Muslims are terrorists or that they are all hateful of non-Muslims, but it certianly doesn't grant them favours in the public eye.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: GoldPheonix Marc --it's not that. It's that this group isn't necessarily dividing themselves from terrorists. Now, I certainly don't feel that all Muslims are terrorists or that they are all hateful of non-Muslims, but it certianly doesn't grant them favours in the public eye.

What would you suggest Muslims do? There have been thousands of statements from Muslims around the world that terrorists do not reflect their religious beliefs, that Islam is the religion of peace. What more do you want? Should they hunt down the terrorists and kill them? Should they stone any terrorist who walks into a mosque? Why would the average anti-terrorist Muslim have any more idea who the terrorists are than we do?

The only reason that Muslims are seen as closely associated with terrorism is because we Westerners insist on seeing them as such. Don't blame Muslims for our prejudices. We have somehow allowed Germans to divest themselves of the Nazi stigma; when we allow Muslims the same freedom from our stereotyping, they will be separate from terrorists.

[Scribbler1]

Coffee Saint, I have one, extremely simple suggestion. On that might help (but couldn't hurt, IMO) stabilize at least a LITTLE of the terrorists murderous activities.
I've tossed this idea out before and have given it a few years of thought, and I can't seem to find a serious flaw in this idea. I invite the membership of our little think tank here to critique my solution.

You (they, actually) simply assemble the largest group of the most influential Muslim clerics you can. Have them say, loudly and VERY publicly, and with one unified voice that terrorism is against the teachings of Mohammed (sp) and those who engage in the killing of innocents are violating the tenets of Islam. Therefore, according to their own religion these killers are essentially heretics and when they kill innocent people (even nonbelievers), and ESPECIALLY when they kill themselves in doing so they will NOT go to heaven, and they will be denied that great severance package of everlasting life with Allah and all the virgins they can handle. Actually, they get NOTHING except an immediate trip to hell for all eternity. Since these killers sincerely think they are doing Gods work and they get their marching orders from men who use their position as either as their leaders or actual clerics, it would follow they will take orders to stand down from, if the orders came from the highest level of Muslim leadership.
I believe people like Bush and some people on this forum are going about this in the worst possible way. They are treating this like a war of strength. Killing the bad guys, as it were. What they don't see is they are trying to wage war with "GOOD" people. By that I mean these killers believe in their hearts they are dong the right thing according to their religion and their individual faith in God. How can you beat that?
You will note that, just before these people do their immoral dirty work they don't yell "I'm gonna get you, sucka". They chant "God is great", which I interpret to mean they are saying "I do this for you, O lord. I am striking a blow for a holy cause, for which I expect to be richly rewarded". Why? Just like George Bush says he gets HIS marching orders from the Christian god, these guys are doing the SAME thing! And where did he get that impression? From his own Christian beliefs, laid down by some Christian cleric. Whether his interpretation is right or not is irrelevant. HE believes it and that's all that matters to a Christian.
The same applies to any other religion. So, taking all that into account, just why can't the Muslim big shots just say, "NO, you have it all wrong. Our faith is peaceful and benevolent and you are committing crimes against Islam"? Which, BTW are the same crimes these true believers accuse everyone ELSE of committing.
If they just did that one simple thing, I believe most Islamic terrorism would stop tomorrow.

So why don't these people DO this simple thing? It's not as if I trust them to even TRY, which the highest leadership hasn't seen fit to do. I'm reminded of how Yasser Arafat would preach peace in english and then, in Arabic say something totally different to the Palestinians.
Go back several hundred years ago. If the Pope decided to wage a "holy war" against the Muslims, for example, he would be THE go-to guy for what people Il papa wanted to snuff. I ask, where is the difference today? I see no real difference.

And, by the way, the Germans lost the stigma of the Nazi era by not trying to take over the world since then. Islamic extremists can't say the same at this time. Personally, I don't want to wait for 50 or more years of suicide bombings so they can get it out of their systems.

[Marconius]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Coffee Saint, I have one, extremely simple suggestion. On that might help (but couldn't hurt, IMO) stabilize at least a LITTLE of the terrorists murderous activities. I've tossed this idea out before and have given it a few years of thought, and I can't seem to find a serious flaw in this idea. I invite the membership of our little think tank here to critique my solution. You (they, actually) simply assemble the largest group of the most influential Muslim clerics you can. Have them say, loudly and VERY publicly, and with one unified voice that terrorism is against the teachings of Mohammed (sp) and those who engage in the killing of innocents are violating the tenets of Islam. Therefore, according to their own religion these killers are essentially heretics and when they kill innocent people (even nonbelievers), and ESPECIALLY when they kill themselves in doing so they will NOT go to heaven, and they will be denied that great severance package of everlasting life with Allah and all the virgins they can handle. Actually, they get NOTHING except an immediate trip to hell for all eternity. Since these killers sincerely think they are doing Gods work and they get their marching orders from men who use their position as either as their leaders or actual clerics, it would follow they will take orders to stand down from, if the orders came from the highest level of Muslim leadership. I believe people like Bush and some people on this forum are going about this in the worst possible way. They are treating this like a war of strength. Killing the bad guys, as it were. What they don't see is they are trying to wage war with "GOOD" people. By that I mean these killers believe in their hearts they are dong the right thing according to their religion and their individual faith in God. How can you beat that? You will note that, just before these people do their immoral dirty work they don't yell "I'm gonna get you, sucka". They chant "God is great", which I interpret to mean they are saying "I do this for you, O lord. I am striking a blow for a holy cause, for which I expect to be richly rewarded". Why? Just like George Bush says he gets HIS marching orders from the Christian god, these guys are doing the SAME thing! And where did he get that impression? From his own Christian beliefs, laid down by some Christian cleric. Whether his interpretation is right or not is irrelevant. HE believes it and that's all that matters to a Christian. The same applies to any other religion. So, taking all that into account, just why can't the Muslim big shots just say, "NO, you have it all wrong. Our faith is peaceful and benevolent and you are committing crimes against Islam"? Which, BTW are the same crimes these true believers accuse everyone ELSE of committing. If they just did that one simple thing, I believe most Islamic terrorism would stop tomorrow. So why don't these people DO this simple thing? It's not as if I trust them to even TRY, which the highest leadership hasn't seen fit to do. I'm reminded of how Yasser Arafat would preach peace in english and then, in Arabic say something totally different to the Palestinians. Go back several hundred years ago. If the Pope decided to wage a "holy war" against the Muslims, for example, he would be THE go-to guy for what people Il papa wanted to snuff. I ask, where is the difference today? I see no real difference. And, by the way, the Germans lost the stigma of the Nazi era by not trying to take over the world since then. Islamic extremists can't say the same at this time. Personally, I don't want to wait for 50 or more years of suicide bombings so they can get it out of their systems.

The major Muslim clerics are very unlikely to do this, they see Islam as persecuted by the west and people that feel under siege tend to close ranks against outsiders. Our actions in the middle east make it very unlikely anything like this will happen any time soon. There isn't really any incentive for them to do this as they have very little to gain and everything to lose.

If somehow something like this did occur I don't see it as changing much, the suicide bombers would just follow different clerics and call the old ones puppets.

[Ghumanto]

I'm a muslim , non Arab .

Jihad
it means holy war. The Prophet clearly said - Jihad has to be started from inside the house . So Jihad has to be fought against myself ( my evil sides - greed, lies etc ) and then only it can be taken outside.

Israel
a tumor created by US-UK to suck the oil out of Mideast . The sooner this terrorist state is abolished - the better for the world.
I have great respect for the Jewish people for their hard work/ scientific advancement but not for this murderous state.

West
The people are very good. They have developed a good system of gooverning the state. They are less corrupt than most Muslim countries. The rulers can't play with the lives of millions - like they do in Muslim countries.
Muslims must learn from the West . The 1st lesson should be - self respect .

Arabs
no more muslims. They forgot the very basic of the relegion and thus getting frustrated . No respect from the world , no technology , nothing to be proud of. They are eager to enjoy only and not interested to do research / hard work.
The rulers are no better than African dicatators. Just yesterday I read news that Saudis are seceretly dealing with the Israelis ( to find a common ground against the Hezbullah ).
What else these thugs will do to save their thrones !!

Arabs , with their sky high pride and even higher ignorance , are the worst enemy of themselves.

Iraq
Saddam wasn't a god guy anyway. But the way he was toppled, the reason to topple and the aftermath - all are war crimes done by US and UK and the mastermind behind all these are none but a strong US-Israeli-Saudi lobby. The sole reason - oil.

Saddam was actually working against the whole issue of being a Muslim . He was proud to be a secular ( by this he meant to be a non believer but by his work he proved to be anti Muslim ).

Saddam was a CIA child , attacked Iran under the supervision of the west and finally turned to be a Muslim when he had no one beside him.

Iraqi insurgents
I prefer to call most of them freedom fighters except for those who deliberately kill civilians. Those are marauding murders like the Israeli generals in Gaza and Lebanon.
BUT, I have great doubt as to whether all the bombings/killings are simply done by Al Qaeda/ any other Arab guarilla group alone. It may well be an act of Israel .

Al Qaeda
I think it is an outfit of the CIA . The sole reason is to create reasons for hatred towards Muslims. So far, by the acts of Al Qaeda - only the Jews got benefitted .

World
Todays Muslims need to follow the guidelines given by leaders like Mahathir Muhammad . They shouldn't listen / follow those stupid mullahs.
Because of hundreds of years of intellectual bankruptcy and impotency of the so called leaders/rulers - todays young generation doesn't have a clear guidelline to proceed. The biggest job is to make the guideline clear and easily available. Otherwise the Mullahs will continue to misinterpret Islam as per their wish and the enemies will create things like OBL in the name of Islam .

Hezbullah
I think they proved a point - Israel isn't invincible. They did attacked civilians in the past but now they changed a lot. They need to be changed further and evolve themselves as great visionary - that's a great task.

Iran
Mustn't forget that people need food, shelter, education as well as security. They are risking all these by quarreling with the US. Iran should try to follow the paths of China , India and Isreal.
Since, Israel have Nukes - Iran also should have. No reasons can be accepted to deny the right to Iran.

Terrorism
This is an expression of outright frustration. The palestinians doesn't have a present or a future. So they could be the worst terrorist. But they are not .
Whatever they do against Isreal - I support except the suicide attacks. When your enemy is killing your brothers every day - you mustn't sleep!
If a Palestinian throws a stone to an armoured Israeli van - that's terrorism. But when Isrelis kill thousands , terrorize the world - that's not terrorism but self defence ; I don't buy this bogus theory.

Islam as a relegion
=================
This is very simple and good. The only doubts that I have - is about the rights of the woman . Some scholars are portraying a different picture about woman using misinterpretation.

My message for non muslims
=====================
DO NOT listen to those ( like Kuldeep ) who never reads the substance but comment on the issue. If you want to know more about Islam and the Muslims - better take some time and read the Koran yourself .

My message for Muslims
======================
the 1st word from Allah is " Iqra ". it means " read " - the greater meaning is to "learn". The biggest emphasis given in the Koran is to acquire knowledge .
So, forget all other issues, let's learn and let's make it possible for others to learn .

Also, always remember to be sober and honest. The Prophet forgave his tormentors in exchange that they ( enemies ) would teach ignorant Muslims. he didn't sought revenge .

The Prophet also said - from the craddle to the grave , learn .
In another hadith ( words from the Prophet ) - " the ink of the pen of a wise man is more precious than the blood of a martyr ".

Finally, let's read the last lecture of the Prophet ( the last Hajj lecture ) - to get a precious view on Islam .

Becoming a muslim is easy- becoming a worthy Muslim is very tough.

[Kuldeep]

DO NOT listen to those ( like Kuldeep ) who never reads the substance but comment on the issue. If you want to know more about Islam and the Muslims - better take some time and read the Koran yourself

Ghumanto, I only said that noble and right person, may be even prophets, would never advocate for killing innocent persons. To understand this, we need have only humanity and not the mastry of religions. I never placed any other comment on the issue.

But, I must thank you for providing the root meaning of "Jihad" the holy war. The war against ills like greed, selfishness, troubling weak, aquiring power at the cost of other's labour and the like. It is great of you to point out that IT has to be fought against your own self first. Naturally, if every body fight Jihad with himself in the real sense of meaning where would remain the ill around.

I even agree with you that Jihad even means: If somebody is tourturing, you should provide him back a forcful reply suitably. In that case it would be a crime if you would remain inactive and timid!

[Apologist]

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

The Koran

[Crimson]

Quote by: Scribbler1 You (they, actually) simply assemble the largest group of the most influential Muslim clerics you can. Have them say, loudly and VERY publicly, and with one unified voice that terrorism is against the teachings of Mohammed (sp) and those who engage in the killing of innocents are violating the tenets of Islam. Therefore, according to their own religion these killers are essentially heretics and when they kill innocent people (even nonbelievers), and ESPECIALLY when they kill themselves in doing so they will NOT go to heaven, and they will be denied that great severance package of everlasting life with Allah and all the virgins they can handle. Actually, they get NOTHING except an immediate trip to hell for all eternity. Since these killers sincerely think they are doing Gods work and they get their marching orders from men who use their position as either as their leaders or actual clerics, it would follow they will take orders to stand down from, if the orders came from the highest level of Muslim leadership. I believe people like Bush and some people on this forum are going about this in the worst possible way. They are treating this like a war of strength. Killing the bad guys, as it were. What they don't see is they are trying to wage war with "GOOD" people. By that I mean these killers believe in their hearts they are dong the right thing according to their religion and their individual faith in God. How can you beat that? You will note that, just before these people do their immoral dirty work they don't yell "I'm gonna get you, sucka". They chant "God is great", which I interpret to mean they are saying "I do this for you, O lord. I am striking a blow for a holy cause, for which I expect to be richly rewarded". Why? Just like George Bush says he gets HIS marching orders from the Christian god, these guys are doing the SAME thing! And where did he get that impression? From his own Christian beliefs, laid down by some Christian cleric. Whether his interpretation is right or not is irrelevant. HE believes it and that's all that matters to a Christian. The same applies to any other religion. So, taking all that into account, just why can't the Muslim big shots just say, "NO, you have it all wrong. Our faith is peaceful and benevolent and you are committing crimes against Islam"? Which, BTW are the same crimes these true believers accuse everyone ELSE of committing. If they just did that one simple thing, I believe most Islamic terrorism would stop tomorrow. So why don't these people DO this simple thing? It's not as if I trust them to even TRY, which the highest leadership hasn't seen fit to do. I'm reminded of how Yasser Arafat would preach peace in english and then, in Arabic say something totally different to the Palestinians. Go back several hundred years ago. If the Pope decided to wage a "holy war" against the Muslims, for example, he would be THE go-to guy for what people Il papa wanted to snuff. I ask, where is the difference today? I see no real difference. And, by the way, the Germans lost the stigma of the Nazi era by not trying to take over the world since then. Islamic extremists can't say the same at this time. Personally, I don't want to wait for 50 or more years of suicide bombings so they can get it out of their systems.

OK. First of all your suggestion comes form an obvious want to solve a problem that has only worsened in the wake of 9/11 and the Iraqi war (these groups existed before 9/11 if you didn't know and they carried out attacks in Saudi Arabia among other places)

Second of all, it also indicates how horribly ignorant of how the muslim world is actually reacting to these terror campaigns (of course to be blamed on the aweful media the muslim countries have) lets face it this is a war of media and the side who has the best means of projecting their ideas to the largest amount of people is the one that is winning.

Most influential, respected and highest regarded Muslim scholars did EXACTLY what you are suggesting they do. All muslim countries have condemned the terrorism that Al-Qaeda and its related groups are fighting with and all means ESPECIALLY suicide bombing. Suicide is prohibeted in Islam no matter what the case is and it is a one way ticket to hell.

Another thing is the muslim countries especially the Saudi government has done all that is in its power to fight terror including many crack downs and shootings with terror suspects all over the country. Please you must keep in mind that the countries being accused of supporting terrorism have been the subject of many terrorist attacks itself and is doing its best to stop terror.

Which brings us to Hizbollah. Now Hizbollah is NOT a terrorist groups as you people have been led to believe. In fact it is an armed resistance and political lebanese Shiite group. They captured the Israeli soldiers as those soldiers were violationg international borders crossing into lebanese territory. The aim of capturing them instead of killing them was to exchange them with somem captured lebanese in Israel. Israel's unjust and extremly violent reaction is a prime example of state terror and should've been condemned by the entire world. NO country has the right to abolish another country as a reaction for loosing two soldiers who crossed that countries border!! Israel delibratley violated uncountable international and UN laws and have not been held accountable for their actions by anyone rendering these laws futile. How do you expect not to have all these people hate or at least have a negative view of the west??