The Bible in Public Schools

[Aeris]

Prayer in school is a hotly debated issue. Some are for scheduled prayer time, some think it should be voluntary, some think it should be private - but allowed. Some think it should be banned completely. There are miriad sides to this issue as with any other.

But I have a more specific issue. When I was a freshman in high school, I had a very Christian friend. She was nice about it - she knew I was a theist, didn't try to force her religion on me, she'd always pray silently when I was around. She only teased me about being a religious malcontent when I teased her about worshipping a 2,000 year old Zombie (No offense, to you Christians out there ) Very polite, if you ask me. And she also brought her Bible to school, just to read between classes.

One day a teacher saw it, took it and her down to the principles office. She was almost expelled for reading, in my opinion, a book of fiction. The same type of books we're required to reading in Creative literature and in some cases philosophy. She was almost expelled, in her opinion, for reading a book of fact. The same thing we're required to do to pass any of our classes. In the end, she was suspended - for reading a book.

Is the supression of religion itself an act by the government of establishment of religion?

By disallowing expression of religion in schools, be it Christian or not, are we effectively instituting an...I dont' know - anti-theistic regime?

Are we as a society and a government sticking our noses where they don't belong - into the lives of students?

[shield772]

AMEN brother

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Aeris Prayer in school is a hotly debated issue. Some are for scheduled prayer time, some think it should be voluntary, some think it should be private - but allowed. Some think it should be banned completely. There are miriad sides to this issue as with any other. But I have a more specific issue. When I was a freshman in high school, I had a very Christian friend. She was nice about it - she knew I was a theist, didn't try to force her religion on me, she'd always pray silently when I was around. She only teased me about being a religious malcontent when I teased her about worshipping a 2,000 year old Zombie (No offense, to you Christians out there ) Very polite, if you ask me. And she also brought her Bible to school, just to read between classes. One day a teacher saw it, took it and her down to the principles office. She was almost expelled for reading, in my opinion, a book of fiction. The same type of books we're required to reading in Creative literature and in some cases philosophy. She was almost expelled, in her opinion, for reading a book of fact. The same thing we're required to do to pass any of our classes. In the end, she was suspended - for reading a book. Is the supression of religion itself an act by the government of establishment of religion? By disallowing expression of religion in schools, be it Christian or not, are we effectively instituting an...I dont' know - anti-theistic regime? Are we as a society and a government sticking our noses where they don't belong - into the lives of students?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

I totally agree with both of you. School is a place of knowledge, be it fiction or nonfiction. However, if she has the right to read that book, then students also have the right to tell her the book is totally fictitious (or fact, if they think so). That's the whole point of school, ciphering fact and fiction and making sense of things.

However, if in anyway, I don't care what religion, interrupts the discourse of classroom, or in anyways prevents or slows the acquisition of factual knowledge, then I have no problem with the school suspending those religious actions.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Aeris Prayer in school is a hotly debated issue. Some are for scheduled prayer time, some think it should be voluntary, some think it should be private - but allowed. Some think it should be banned completely. There are miriad sides to this issue as with any other. But I have a more specific issue. When I was a freshman in high school, I had a very Christian friend. She was nice about it - she knew I was a theist, didn't try to force her religion on me, she'd always pray silently when I was around. She only teased me about being a religious malcontent when I teased her about worshipping a 2,000 year old Zombie (No offense, to you Christians out there ) Very polite, if you ask me. And she also brought her Bible to school, just to read between classes. One day a teacher saw it, took it and her down to the principles office. She was almost expelled for reading, in my opinion, a book of fiction. The same type of books we're required to reading in Creative literature and in some cases philosophy. She was almost expelled, in her opinion, for reading a book of fact. The same thing we're required to do to pass any of our classes. In the end, she was suspended - for reading a book. Is the supression of religion itself an act by the government of establishment of religion? By disallowing expression of religion in schools, be it Christian or not, are we effectively instituting an...I dont' know - anti-theistic regime? Are we as a society and a government sticking our noses where they don't belong - into the lives of students?

Not at all.

A class on why the Christian god does not exist would be anti-theistic.

[Aeris]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Not at all. A class on why the Christian god does not exist would be anti-theistic.

I said nothing about classes about religion.

She was expelled for reading a book. Does the ban of said book and other related religous material constitute anti-theism?

[Jack]

It's an unnecessary prohibition that contributes nothing positive to the situation. It reminds me of the silly extremes some schools have gone to to "protect" their students, like expelling students for having plastic knives in their lunchbags.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Aeris I said nothing about classes about religion. She was expelled for reading a book. Does the ban of said book and other related religous material constitute anti-theism?

I'm sorry, I was replying directly to your question.

Quote by: Aeris Is the supression of religion itself an act by the government of establishment of religion? By disallowing expression of religion in schools, be it Christian or not, are we effectively instituting an...I dont' know - anti-theistic regime?

[Aeris]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'm sorry, I was replying directly to your question.

I read your response too quickly and posted without thinking.

I see the connection now.

[PatrickHenry]

Aeris, if I was her father I would have sued and sought damages. That situation was authoritarian tyranny by the school. The child had a right to her beliefs and her Bible. She was not disruptive, just perusing a holy book that is out of favor.

I would have spared no expense to get an apology and a retraction of that action by the school.

Do you have a reference to the story? Did it make the local news?

[Aeris]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Aeris, if I was her father I would have sued and sought damages. That situation was authoritarian tyranny by the school. The child had a right to her beliefs and her Bible. She was not disruptive, just perusing a holy book that is out of favor. I would have spared no expense to get an apology and a retraction of that action by the school. Do you have a reference to the stroy? Did it make the local news?

No. Her parents were "good" Lutherans like the rest of the community. It didn't make it past her group of friends of the principal's office. Purely anecdotal...sorry. :(

[The 68]

I am a HS senior, and I am fortunate enough to attend a school where we are very loose on religious beliefs. Nobody cares that we pray before football games and at graduation. I understand that I'm in the middle of the Bible Belt (Just look at my location!), but it seems to me that most of these problems span from people who aren't in agreement with a particular religion whining about the people that are. Also, in reference to the constitution's 1st amendment, even if a school sets aside specified time for prayer, it might violate certain LAWS, which supposedly span from constitutional principle, but it doesn't violate the amendment itself. Just look at the first 5 words, "Congress shall make no law." If a school decides to set aside time for prayer (in which, of course, participation would be optional so as to uphold the ideals of freedom that the amendment strives to protect), I don't see congress making any laws. However, these laws that prohibit this obviously violate free exercise.

[Jack]

I suppose that they could always take a 15 minute chunk of time and set it aside as prayer/meditate/think/navel gaze time, without giving the lawyers something to sue over. But to what purpose? Why can't kids do all that at home? Why do they have to take any time away from instruction for such personal needs? Aren't kids coming out of high school dumb enough as it is? (no offense intended-nothing personal) School is like life. You get one chance to get it right. Students need all the time they can get to learn. Take care of the rest before or after school.
But prayer time-outs are different than the scenario presented at the top of this thread.

[The 68]

Isherwood

I suppose that they could always take a 15 minute chunk of time and set it aside as prayer/meditate/think/navel gaze time, without giving the lawyers something to sue over. But to what purpose? Why can't kids do all that at home? Why do they have to take any time away from instruction for such personal needs?

Yes, that's true, but the purpose is to give students time to collect thoughts, pray, do homework for the class at hand, etc. Sorry, I can't quote the source, but I read some statistics the other day that students who make time each day for some silence (not necessarily religiously related silence and/or prayer, just silence) do much better in school because people don't realize how much noise dominates our days and inhibits our thought. I don't think 2 minutes of silence could possibly hinder our absolutely terrible public education any further than it's current decrepit state.

Aren't kids coming out of high school dumb enough as it is? (no offense intended-nothing personal)

It's all good. Don't worry, I agree. Trust me, I know. First hand.

Students need all the time they can get to learn.

Learn what? The BS they half-arsedly try to teach us? I attended private school up until age 14, and I have yet to learn anything from our public ed. system.

But prayer time-outs are different than the scenario presented at the top of this thread

True, but the scenario at the top was obviously over-the-top wrong. I just wanted to present a much more common iteration.

[Jack]

Learn what? The BS they half-arsedly try to teach us? I attended private school up until age 14, and I have yet to learn anything from our public ed. system.

True enough, and I agree. But that's for another thread.

[The 68]

That it is.

[underbear1]

Students in a school are subject to the rulings of the principal and school board, which are much more limited than adults anywhere else in the country. There have been recent legal rulings about religious practices in schools, which may have changed since this original poster was a freshman in High School.

[Aeris]

Quote by: underbear1 Students in a school are subject to the rulings of the principal and school board, which are much more limited than adults anywhere else in the country. There have been recent legal rulings about religious practices in schools, which may have changed since this original poster was a freshman in High School.

Actually, from what my brother tells me they've gotten even more strict. Stricter dress codes, no holding hands, everyone has to sign in and out of the school unless they're a student, students a regularly asked for their IDs - and this is just suburbia. I'll ask to read the student handbook next time I go home to see if I can post some excerpts.

(Its now his turn to be a freshman, poor boy. )

[phoenix_fire]

I am wondering, in regards to the original post, whether the school had similar policies against the holy books of all religions. Not that that would justify it: it would be a heinous breach of first amendment rights either way, but I have a theory about the specific treatment of Christianity in these kinds of situations.

[ItsDarts]

What wasn't mentioned in the OP was if this girl was reading The Book DURING class time. If this was the case, then the school might be within its bounds to suspend her. Although, even that is extreme. Would/could she have been suspended for basically disrupting class be reading ANY book not dealing with the subject of the class? We'll never know.

There are no laws concerning kids praying in school as long as it doesn't disrupt class. Teachers can not introduce prayers in class, they are tax payer supported state workers. Kid are not denied rights to pray on their own time, but it becomes disrupting of they pray during class time (our dime) if they do it out loud. No one is stopping kids from praying during lunch, recess, in between classes etc... You just can't do it DURING class.

Muslims are required to pray 5 times a day on a carpet facing Mecca, how dispruting would that be if they were allowed to do this during class time? Very and its NOT allowed in public schools. It would be a safe bet that most muslim kids go to muslim/islamist schools where it is allowed. If christians want their kids to pray in school, send them to parochial schools. If you can't afford it, then too bad, let them pray and study christianity at church, where it belongs.