The Bible in Public Schools

[belverron]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I wouldn't worry about Dubya too much. He's only pretending in order to solidify his base.

I take issue with your dismissing another's faith because it does not align with your own.

[gallo]

Quote by: belverron I take issue with your dismissing another's faith because it does not align with your own.

But it is such a typical christian tactic. Point out some word or deed by a christian, and you will get some response the "he isn't a TROO christian." Point out that the KKK was a brotherhood of Southern Baptist men and they aren't TROO christians. Point out that Hitler persecuted the Jews because he saw it as his Christian duty, and he isn't a TROO christian. Generally, you will find that whatever particular christian you are talking with gets to determine what is and is not christian.

[shield772]

Quote by: gallo But it is such a typical christian tactic. Point out some word or deed by a christian, and you will get some response the "he isn't a TROO christian." Point out that the KKK was a brotherhood of Southern Baptist men and they aren't TROO christians. Point out that Hitler persecuted the Jews because he saw it as his Christian duty, and he isn't a TROO christian. Generally, you will find that whatever particular christian you are talking with gets to determine what is and is not christian.

Tell me how any of those people you mentioned while claiming the title of christianity acted in the teachings of christ? So no they are not true christians nor am I but I struggle to be everyday, I don't murder, steal, opress others nor am I a thumper and I hate generalizations.

[gallo]

Quote by: shield772 Tell me how any of those people you mentioned while claiming the title of christianity acted in the teachings of christ? So no they are not true christians nor am I but I struggle to be everyday, I don't murder, steal, opress others nor am I a thumper and I hate generalizations.

Exactly how I said a christian would react.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: belverron I take issue with your dismissing another's faith because it does not align with your own.

Please. You know that Gore pretended to care about the environment to try to keep the Green Party from taking away his power base. Politicians will "care" about anything that makes sure they win the election. It just so happens that republicans have to "care" about God.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shield772 Tell me how any of those people you mentioned while claiming the title of christianity acted in the teachings of christ? So no they are not true christians nor am I but I struggle to be everyday, I don't murder, steal, opress others nor am I a thumper and I hate generalizations.

Is this not an exercise in subjectivity?


I bet I could ask that question to a hundred different people, and get ablout ninety five different answers.

Quote by: phoenix_fire Please. You know that Gore pretended to care about the environment to try to keep the Green Party from taking away his power base. Politicians will "care" about anything that makes sure they win the election. It just so happens that republicans have to "care" about God.

You are wise beyond your years.

[shield772]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Please. You know that Gore pretended to care about the environment to try to keep the Green Party from taking away his power base. Politicians will "care" about anything that makes sure they win the election. It just so happens that republicans have to "care" about God.

Yeah because the Gore family tobacco farm allowed strip mining on a part they wern't using.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: phoenix_fire Please. You know that Gore pretended to care about the environment to try to keep the Green Party from taking away his power base. Politicians will "care" about anything that makes sure they win the election.

Cynical bullshit. Who's he running against now?


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[azrielbrite84]

I feel that prayer should be done in private but should still be allow. A scheduled prayer time will just make other students feel uncomfortable if they do not agree with religion at hand. If parents feel that religion is something that should be practiced in school than maybe a private school would be a better choice. I do believe that a student should have the right to pray if he or she feels that they must. Prayer in school should be by choice and forced.

[Nitrogenetic]

Quote by: azrielbrite84 I feel that prayer should be done in private but should still be allow. A scheduled prayer time will just make other students feel uncomfortable if they do not agree with religion at hand. If parents feel that religion is something that should be practiced in school than maybe a private school would be a better choice. I do believe that a student should have the right to pray if he or she feels that they must. Prayer in school should be by choice and forced.

I take it you mean that it should not be forced. Personally, I feel religion has no place in science class. That includes prayer, ID, everything. Unless we have the resources to make a Muslim, Christian and Buddhist school in every district, which we don't, then they're going to have to attend their public school and that school needs to have no religious affiliation.

[McAiden]

When I was a kid we learned religion in church, math, reading, history, etc., in school and at home. That has changed because of immigrants, the world just in general becoming smaller through computers, TV., and people becoming more independent from their own study and reading.

Why are some people making it so difficult, demanding that religion be taught also in schools, alongside science? What will Americans do when Arabs wear headscarves, burkas to public school as is happening in Europe? Notice these are only women's wear, which creates another gigantic problem of suppression of the female (Americans think).

We have some problems to face, don't we? The entire world has these problems, not just here in America, and we are the guineau pigs.

[Faith Nwosu]

I definitely think that the bible should be introduced to the school system. It will in my opinion, help eradicate some of these problems with guns, suicide, drugs, and what have you in the sense that a student who is introduced to the bible and taught in the right way about God and his love for mankind will see that with the direction from the bible, then we will have less worries of that student having these bad attitudes in school.
I, however know that this country is all about freedom to do whatever you want, so it comes down to the students if they are willing to read and learn from the bible.Let's not forget that this is the school system and no knowledge is lost and if a student decides to read his or her bible then that should not be an issue. The school board has enough to worry about especially the students' education which should be at the focal point in their priorities than kids trying to read their bibles.
I watch news sometimes and see the horrible things that happen in schools by students and it is very saddening to know that one way that might be a positive influence in helping to eliminate these things is an issue. I know that schools no matter what level is one of the ways a child's morality, integrity and attitudes later in life is brought up therefore we need all the right resources.

[angl238]

I personally think, that everybody that have their own religions and should keep it to themselves because here in this world everybody is against each other and against in each and everyone beliefs. I mean you can talk to a friend or a family member or a stranger about religion and ninety eight percent of the time are against what you're saying and thats how we all start a fight. I mean I believe in God, but I have my ways of thinking that I dont think everybody should be talking about religion or bringing a bible to school nor work because there are people that does not believe in God, there are people out there that believes in evolution or anything out there, and since there are people that are against the bible or talking about God (religion) in a public area thats why we have war going on, hating on each other, killing everybody. I mean look at the example at Israel, there are like three or four different types of religions there and they all hate each other and against each other, they're all in war now because of the religion. I think that's ridicioulous for people to be doing that, like I said earlier for that don't talk about God nor bring a bible to a public area. Yes, I understand there are people that like to help people to understand there's a God out there and to help the people to become a better person, but hey what can you do? They choose what they want to do, either they want to follow that path or go the other way, it's their choose not ours.

[jamesbdunn]

School is a necessary part of our lives to gain the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic to function in our society. However, if children are necessarily corrupted in schools to work against the words of God, then how could that be right? I would rather send children to school to learn the basics necessary for living within our society, rather than having them corrupted with the teachings of persons who have strayed from Gods words.

The original stone tablets of the Ten Commandments is the ONLY legitimate Bible. All texts written by man since then are exactly what the Ten Commandments said they would be, vial.

You shall have no other gods before Me & You shall not make for yourself an idol. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God.

So what happens, people write for themselves the Bible, Kuran, and a variety of other texts to idolize. Leading people to believe that they will be forgiven for doing vial acts against the Ten Commandments.

In EVERY publication since the stone tablets, PEOPLE have sought to gain reverence by other people. ALL Priests, Rabis, Prophets, Preachers, and other persons and texts that admonish the Lord and God in service of their own desires, are in FACT purveyors of works AGAINST the original stone tablets. A person can neither add to nor subtract from the words of the stone tablets without deviating from the words of God. The stone tablets are the basis for the most popular religions, and are the ONLY words directly transcribed by GOD. It can NOT be interpretated by any person, it can only be read by each person.

Nowhere in the stone tablets does it infer that ANY person shall listen to any other person for guidance. NO PERSON shall interpret the stone tablets for another person. To do so is to speak in the LORDS name.

No, religious notions should not be taught in public schools. To do so removes access to public education for those not wanting to expose their children to vial teachings.

Quote by: Aeris Are we as a society and a government sticking our noses where they don't belong - into the lives of students?

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: jamesbdunn School is a necessary part of our lives to gain the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic to function in our society. However, if children are necessarily corrupted in schools to work against the words of God, then how could that be right? I would rather send children to school to learn the basics necessary for living within our society, rather than having them corrupted with the teachings of persons who have strayed from Gods words. The original stone tablets of the Ten Commandments is the ONLY legitimate Bible. All texts written by man since then are exactly what the Ten Commandments said they would be, vial.

Ummm you're making one large assumption here... that the "stone tablets" even existed. We wouldn't know they existed if it hadn't been for the torah. Even if we ignore that fact, and only took the word of oral tradition to know that some tablets existed, it's still taking the words of men on nothing but faith, the belief without logical proof or empirical evidence.

You shall have no other gods before Me & You shall not make for yourself an idol. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God.

You'd think an Omnibenevolent god would make up some better rules like Thou shalt not molest children, or thou shalt not beat thy wife or something more profound. The first three rules show nothing but a egocentric jealous god, hardly the qualities I wish to worship.

So what happens, people write for themselves the Bible, Kuran, and a variety of other texts to idolize. Leading people to believe that they will be forgiven for doing vial acts against the Ten Commandments.

Yeah well it's better than the alternative, death for breaking the commandments.

In EVERY publication since the stone tablets, PEOPLE have sought to gain reverence by other people.

Again, you're assuming this "publication" even took place. I mean c'mon, really, do you REALLY think that a burning bush that isn't consumed by the fire can really write into stone, words to live by? Oh thats right, you believe the stone tablets existed.....Doh!

ALL Priests, Rabis, Prophets, Preachers, and other persons and texts that admonish the Lord and God in service of their own desires, are in FACT purveyors of works AGAINST the original stone tablets.

I'm still waiting for evidence (not even proof) that the tablets existed in the first place.[quote] A person can neither add to nor subtract from the words of the stone tablets without deviating from the words of God. The stone tablets are the basis for the most popular religions, and are the ONLY words directly transcribed by GOD. It can NOT be interpretated by any person, it can only be read by each person.[quote] How do you know these are the only words transcribed by this god? Oh thats right, some book tells you this, a book written by guess who?.... MAN. Does being the basis for "the most popular" religions give you reason to believe any of it is true? Remember, everyone use to think the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. Everyone was wrong once knowledge to the contrary was gained.

Nowhere in the stone tablets does it infer that ANY person shall listen to any other person for guidance. NO PERSON shall interpret the stone tablets for another person. To do so is to speak in the LORDS name.

Why should we listen to you? This sounds like hog wash to me. Who says "NO PERSON sahll interpret the stone tablets? Aren't you doing this very thing you say we can't do? Sounds like an interpretation to me if you say that by interpreting, we are taking the lords name in vane.

No, religious notions should not be taught in public schools. To do so removes access to public education for those not wanting to expose their children to vial teachings.

This is the only thing you've said that I agree with. Religion has it's own place, its called CHURCH or Synogog or Mosque, it doesn't require tax payer dollars and it insures that you corrupt your children in the faith you want them to be corrupted in.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: ItsDarts Ummm you're making one large assumption here... that the "stone tablets" even existed. We wouldn't know they existed if it hadn't been for the torah. Even if we ignore that fact, and only took the word of oral tradition to know that some tablets existed, it's still taking the words of men on nothing but faith, the belief without logical proof or empirical evidence.

I whole heartedly concede to that assumption. But if one has a desire to believe, what other assumption would you make? If God did not create the tablets, than all of religion in that vein is a farse. It may very well be. But I choose to think that these statements are profound enough to live by.

You'd think an Omnibenevolent god would make up some better rules like Thou shalt not molest children, or thou shalt not beat thy wife or something more profound. The first three rules show nothing but a egocentric jealous god, hardly the qualities I wish to worship.

Why egocentric. In my mind, they simply state to not allow other people to get you to do things contrary to the Ten Commandments. If I had a god I believed in that required human sacrifice, don't consider the claim legitimate.

But that's just me. Like I say, I don't believe anyone can interpret the Ten Commandments for anyone else.

Yeah well it's better than the alternative, death for breaking the commandments.

Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it say you should fear death as a result of not following the Ten Commandments. What actually happens is reflected by deeds and time. God doesn't punish you, the consequences following your actions will.

Again, you're assuming this "publication" even took place. I mean c'mon, really, do you REALLY think that a burning bush that isn't consumed by the fire can really write into stone, words to live by? Oh thats right, you believe the stone tablets existed.....Doh!

I choose to believe because it would be simple to do. Perhaps an alien used a laser-like ray to carve the stones and light the bush. It doesn't matter, the concepts are good and help keep my life under control.

I'm still waiting for evidence (not even proof) that the tablets existed in the first place. How do you know these are the only words transcribed by this god? Oh thats right, some book tells you this, a book written by guess who?.... MAN. Does being the basis for "the most popular" religions give you reason to believe any of it is true? Remember, everyone use to think the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. Everyone was wrong once knowledge to the contrary was gained.

I'm open to the possibility, but as in science, there are no absolutes. We can only make the best use of the information that is available to us.

Why should we listen to you? This sounds like hog wash to me. Who says "NO PERSON sahll interpret the stone tablets? Aren't you doing this very thing you say we can't do? Sounds like an interpretation to me if you say that by interpreting, we are taking the lords name in vane.

As I said, these are my opinions. I get lost in these forums so I don't know what I'm repeating or not. But the point is you must choose for yourself what you believe in. For me, that means not disregarding the basic tenents of the religion. The Ten Commandments say there shall be no one to speak for God, so there can not be any prophets speaking for God. Prophets are just story tellers with an opinion.

This is the only thing you've said that I agree with. Religion has it's own place, its called CHURCH or Synogog or Mosque, it doesn't require tax payer dollars and it insures that you corrupt your children in the faith you want them to be corrupted in.

Life is a long series of revelations, I hope we all have some good ones.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: jamesbdunn I whole heartedly concede to that assumption. But if one has a desire to believe, what other assumption would you make? If God did not create the tablets, than all of religion in that vein is a farse. It may very well be. But I choose to think that these statements are profound enough to live by.

OK, I understand. You are assuming there is a god and you are assuming he wrote 10 rules, 4 or 5 of which pertain to him and 4 or 5 that pertain to how we should live with each other, yet the only evidence we have of them is written in a book, not in stone. You make these assumptions based on words in a book that you say we shouldn't trust. How do you live with this kind of logic?

Why egocentric. In my mind, they simply state to not allow other people to get you to do things contrary to the Ten Commandments. If I had a god I believed in that required human sacrifice, don't consider the claim legitimate.

But again, you are basing this belief what was written in a book. You don't have the stone tablets. You are also interpreting the commandments in a way that ISN"T supported by them. The 10C's do NOT state to not allow other people to get you to do things contrary to them. You are being hypocritical when you interpret because you said earlier that man shouldn't interpret.

But that's just me. Like I say, I don't believe anyone can interpret the Ten Commandments for anyone else.

See what I mean? This is being hypocritical.

Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it say you should fear death as a result of not following the Ten Commandments. What actually happens is reflected by deeds and time. God doesn't punish you, the consequences following your actions will.

You are correct, the 10C's don't specifically say what the consequences are for not following them. How ever the very same book you base your belief in DOES say what the consequences are. How do you reconcile belief in the commandments based on the book and ignore the rest of the book?

I choose to believe because it would be simple to do. Perhaps an alien used a laser-like ray to carve the stones and light the bush. It doesn't matter, the concepts are good and help keep my life under control.

You DO realize that these "rules" were around long before the 10C's were written, right? You also realize that these rules can and should be broken under certain circumstances, right? If my parents were sexually abusive, should I still honor them and not turn them in??? What prevents you from molesting kids? That wasn't one of the 10 rules. Wouldn't you agree that you don't do a lot of things because you have a conscience that prevents you from doing them? Don't you find it odd that this god doesn't want you coveting your neighbors possessions, yet doesn't say a damn thing about molesting children?

I'm open to the possibility, but as in science, there are no absolutes. We can only make the best use of the information that is available to us.

What information is available to you? The book you say we shouldn't trust? You've repeated this rant in 3 or 4 different threads now, is this your only argument for all things religious? If so it's failing miserably.

As I said, these are my opinions. I get lost in these forums so I don't know what I'm repeating or not. But the point is you must choose for yourself what you believe in. For me, that means not disregarding the basic tenents of the religion. The Ten Commandments say there shall be no one to speak for God, so there can not be any prophets speaking for God. Prophets are just story tellers with an opinion.

You're copying and pasting this same rant with few minor changes to fit the thread you;re in, of course you know what you are repeating. The 10C's do NOT say that no one should not speak for god, this is your own poor interpretation. Stop being hypocritical.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: ItsDarts OK, I understand. You are assuming there is a god and you are assuming he wrote 10 rules, 4 or 5 of which pertain to him and 4 or 5 that pertain to how we should live with each other, yet the only evidence we have of them is written in a book, not in stone. You make these assumptions based on words in a book that you say we shouldn't trust. How do you live with this kind of logic?

If there is a God and it understands the relationships throughout time, then God would only need to speak once to be heard for all time.

As for history books making loose reference to events that may or may not have happened, welcome to the real world. Most of history is neither recorded nor observable, and the few instances that are recorded are inadequately described with any detail.

A person must use the information that is presented to their best benefit. Removing as much contradiction as possible brings me to this conclusion. The stone tablets have a basis for existing and the rules quoted are consistent with rules that could survive a millenium without any required changes.

But again, you are basing this belief what was written in a book. You don't have the stone tablets. You are also interpreting the commandments in a way that ISN"T supported by them. The 10C's do NOT state to not allow other people to get you to do things contrary to them. You are being hypocritical when you interpret because you said earlier that man shouldn't interpret. See what I mean? This is being hypocritical.

I made these blatant statements to express my opinion and instigate a response. I am guilty of exactly what you say. So I will preface my statements henceforth that these are my opinions.

You are correct, the 10C's don't specifically say what the consequences are for not following them. How ever the very same book you base your belief in DOES say what the consequences are. How do you reconcile belief in the commandments based on the book and ignore the rest of the book?

Many books reference the Ten Commandments. Like many history books reference a particular event and then go on to express their opinions about how to interpret the event.

That many books reference the Ten Commandments gives it statistical significance since the books themselves are contradictory with one another.

You DO realize that these "rules" were around long before the 10C's were written, right? You also realize that these rules can and should be broken under certain circumstances, right?

In my opinion, I do not believe that there are exceptions.

If my parents were sexually abusive, should I still honor them and not turn them in??? What prevents you from molesting kids?

These are social issues that change depending upon society. There are families in the world that are incestually sexually active and it is locally accepted. The roman times also present such acceptance. In our current society it is unacceptable.

But let's take this to an extreme. A serial killer kidnaps children and the children are raped and mutilated. You have never known your real father as you were adopted. You find out that this Serial Killer is your biological Father. Can you still do what is socially right and still be reverent to your Father? Of course you can. You may not, I wouldn't imagine I could understand the complex feelings a person would feel in this situation. But yes, they could still have respectful feelings toward their father.

That wasn't one of the 10 rules. Wouldn't you agree that you don't do a lot of things because you have a conscience that prevents you from doing them? Don't you find it odd that this god doesn't want you coveting your neighbors possessions, yet doesn't say a damn thing about molesting children?

What rules do you think could be set down today, that would still be relavent ten thousand years from now and all time in between? Even with technological advances where cloning, accelerated physical development, extraordinarily long lifetimes, cybernetics, and a host of other technologies will significantly change our social behaviours. And make those rules so that we can understand them today, without knowing anything about what is going to be developed a thousand years from now.

I suppose the rules would have to contain the seeds necessary to grow a system of beliefs that would allow people to coexist socially and prepare themselves for greater things to come.

What information is available to you? The book you say we shouldn't trust? You've repeated this rant in 3 or 4 different threads now, is this your only argument for all things religious? If so it's failing miserably. You're copying and pasting this same rant with few minor changes to fit the thread you;re in, of course you know what you are repeating. The 10C's do NOT say that no one should not speak for god, this is your own poor interpretation. Stop being hypocritical.

Multiple threads, not all, are strongly related to my suppositions. I'm lazy, I really don't feel like retyping the basis of my viewpoint so many times. But it has allowed me the interaction I was looking for.

I learn through multiple situations. Debate is one of them.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: jamesbdunn If there is a God and it understands the relationships throughout time, then God would only need to speak once to be heard for all time.

Nice allegory, did you think that up all by yourself? Obviously god hasn't spoke then because I haven't heard him. I haven't seen these tablets, I only know that men wrote what was supposedly on these tablets in a book. Even if some tablets existed, you would still have to demonstrate how fire from a burning bush that doesn't get consumed could write in hebrew. If you couldn't demonstrate this, then I'm left with no choice but to think they are a forgery.

As for history books making loose reference to events that may or may not have happened, welcome to the real world. Most of history is neither recorded nor observable, and the few instances that are recorded are inadequately described with any detail.

Yet you choose to believe some invisable friend in the sky wrote on some tablets???

A person must use the information that is presented to their best benefit.

And who presented the tablets to you? Which version of the tablets were you presented with?

Removing as much contradiction as possible brings me to this conclusion.

What contradiction?

The stone tablets have a basis for existing and the rules quoted are consistent with rules that could survive a millenium without any required changes.

What basis? The first 5 rules are B.S. for the simple fact that there isn't any credible evidence to support this god. The second 5 rules are common rules that have been around LONG before the story of the tablets come into being. If the rules could be re-written, it should include Thou shalt not molest children.

I made these blatant statements to express my opinion and instigate a response. I am guilty of exactly what you say. So I will preface my statements henceforth that these are my opinions.

fair enough.

Many books reference the Ten Commandments. Like many history books reference a particular event and then go on to express their opinions about how to interpret the event.

History books don't express opinions on how to interpret the events. I'll agree that history is often written by the victor. But what does "many references" to the 10C's have to do with this? There are many books that reference Unicorns, leprechauns and magic flying fairies, but none of these exist either.

That many books reference the Ten Commandments gives it statistical significance since the books themselves are contradictory with one another.

The different references don't really contradict each other, they say pretty much the same thing with different wording. There is no statistical significance here. AS I said before, many use to think the earth was flat.

In my opinion, I do not believe that there are exceptions.

You know what they say about opinions, right?

These are social issues that change depending upon society. There are families in the world that are incestually sexually active and it is locally accepted. The roman times also present such acceptance. In our current society it is unacceptable.

OK, so if it's unacceptable in our current society, wouldn't you agree that it would be acceptable to break the rule about honoring such a parent? Ummm there has never been a society that condones the molestation if small children. There is a difference between a society that condone sexual activity at say 13 than one that does at 5. I agree that many societies have married off 13 year olds or when the girl has come of age by mentration, but there has never been one that condones this at age 5. Oh wait, you wrote more......

But let's take this to an extreme. A serial killer kidnaps children and the children are raped and