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leftcider · Sep 10, 2006, 04:50 am

This thread assumes atheism as truth, and that the title of the thread is spelled correctly.

I came across this concept when researching "chaos magic" and Satanism. It is the idea of induldging in an "irrational" belief system (God/devil worship, etc.) while knowingly not believing in it. This can be done through thought, ritual, etc. The point being that such rituals and beliefs can play a positive effect in one's life, and that they can still function as such even if not believed. Sort of like roleplaying fantasy, acting, or becoming deeply involved in a fictional character.

I think there's a disconnect between our rational selves and our biological motivations. What we're motivated by is limited and driven by biology and sometimes not congruent to "objectivity". So, such a method recognizes the human drive towards spirtuality, ritual, etc. and its positive potential while eliminating the need to hold it as truth.

Thoughts?

PatrickHenry · Sep 10, 2006, 05:34 am

Yeah. Your title is incorrectly spelled and makes you look sorta ignorant.

leftcider · Sep 10, 2006, 05:37 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

Yeah. Your title is incorrectly spelled and makes you look sorta ignorant.

Stopgag solution created (reread first sentence).

Thanks.

**Matt W** · Sep 10, 2006, 05:46 am

Dealt with.

PatrickHenry · Sep 10, 2006, 05:47 am

Cool.

phoenix_fire · Sep 10, 2006, 09:58 am

I think a stunning proportion of any given religion's adherents do just that anyway.

EndersGame · Sep 10, 2006, 11:09 am

Wouldn't faith be considered playing make believe? Since faith implies believing in something which your "gut" tells you isn't so.

**Jack** · Sep 10, 2006, 11:23 am

On those occasions that I've discussed religion/philosophy with "average" people (fellow shoppers in the bookstore, at work, etc.), I've found that generally they don't spend a great deal of time thinking deeply about it. Even those who are almost fanatical about their beliefs often don't question them to any degree.
So I guess in that sense you could say they're playing make believe with their beliefs. They have accepted the tenets of their faith without rigorous examination. Perhaps at some level they fear that they may cause a crises of faith if they questioned it too deeply. Some will tell me it's just not a priority issue for them. They'd rather spend their time thinking about issues of greater importance to them. Not everyone is cut out to be a philosopher.

EndersGame · Sep 10, 2006, 11:41 am

You don't need to be a philosopher to think. I don't mind the people who believe there is a god without having proof, it's the people who take his rules/morals/etc. etc. without thinking that irritate me. What is the meaning of life if it isn't yours?

The 68 · Sep 10, 2006, 10:38 pm

Endersgame

Quote:

Wouldn't faith be considered playing make believe? Since faith implies believing in something which your "gut" tells you isn't so.

Ah, but that's where you're wrong. I think it's clearly understood that you're not religious, because you don't understand those who are. Those that are religious feel it in their soul that they are going the right direction, and this is true of all TRUE followers of any religion. I think the Idea that religion is all just a 4000+ year old game of charades that nobody really believes in their "gut" is absolutely insane and contrary to the way that the human mind works.

**Jack** · Sep 10, 2006, 10:45 pm

Quote:

Those that are religious feel it in their soul that they are going the right direction, and this is true of all TRUE followers of any religion. I think the Idea that religion is all just a 4000+ year old game of charades that nobody really believes in their "gut" is absolutely insane and contrary to the way that the human mind works.

I believed sincerely when I was a theist. I believed with my mind and emotions. I defy any theist to describe in accurate terms a non-theist can understand what the soul is and where it resides in your body. The "soul" is just a term we use, it has no reality. If you accept the reality of the soul, then you can't have any objections to a belief in auras. You also have no feelings that originate from your gut, except gas. Your brain is where all thought and emotion originates and dwells. Your brain is capable of deep conviction or shallow fancy. Some theists believe with fervor, some out of convenience. We have no way to determine objectively the level of any other person's belief in anything.

The 68 · Sep 10, 2006, 10:58 pm

Which is why I can't judge you for being non-theistic. I can only try to show you what I believe, and let it be until you experience it for yourself.

EndersGame · Sep 18, 2006, 06:01 pm

I see faith and believing something as two different things. You may not think it suitable but i'll go on anyways. Believing is basically knowing something, like you know that the sun will rise tomorow. Faith is something that you would like to be real and you are fairly sure. Like having faith that someone will not tell your secret. A gut feeling if you will(you know what i mean isher...).
If you truly believe in the religion or if you just have faith; it's a great step and not easily taken. Believe me that there are many more people with faith then with belief-whether it is a disagreement with the rules or perfectness or whatever other reasons. So i guess it wouldn't be playing make-believe rather then playing make-faith

**Jack** · Sep 18, 2006, 11:07 pm

Quote:

let it be until you experience it for yourself.

I appreciate your attitude, The 68. But you should note, as I said, I have experienced it myself. Been there, done that, outgrew it.

Sep 10, 2006, 04:50 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
leftcider Lord Teh Location: Seattlul, WA Posts: 486	Playing "Make Believe" with Religion This thread assumes atheism as truth, and that the title of the thread is spelled correctly. I came across this concept when researching "chaos magic" and Satanism. It is the idea of induldging in an "irrational" belief system (God/devil worship, etc.) while knowingly not believing in it. This can be done through thought, ritual, etc. The point being that such rituals and beliefs can play a positive effect in one's life, and that they can still function as such even if not believed. Sort of like roleplaying fantasy, acting, or becoming deeply involved in a fictional character. I think there's a disconnect between our rational selves and our biological motivations. What we're motivated by is limited and driven by biology and sometimes not congruent to "objectivity". So, such a method recognizes the human drive towards spirtuality, ritual, etc. and its positive potential while eliminating the need to hold it as truth. Thoughts? Last edited by leftcider; Sep 10, 2006 at 05:36 am.

Sep 10, 2006, 05:34 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	Yeah. Your title is incorrectly spelled and makes you look sorta ignorant. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Sep 10, 2006, 05:46 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,104	Dealt with. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Sep 10, 2006, 05:47 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	Cool. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Sep 10, 2006, 09:58 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	I think a stunning proportion of any given religion's adherents do just that anyway. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Sep 10, 2006, 11:09 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
EndersGame Rawr Location: Behind you! Posts: 22	Wouldn't faith be considered playing make believe? Since faith implies believing in something which your "gut" tells you isn't so. ¤´¨) If god created us in his image ¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·`* We have returned him the favor.

Sep 10, 2006, 11:23 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 12,869	On those occasions that I've discussed religion/philosophy with "average" people (fellow shoppers in the bookstore, at work, etc.), I've found that generally they don't spend a great deal of time thinking deeply about it. Even those who are almost fanatical about their beliefs often don't question them to any degree. So I guess in that sense you could say they're playing make believe with their beliefs. They have accepted the tenets of their faith without rigorous examination. Perhaps at some level they fear that they may cause a crises of faith if they questioned it too deeply. Some will tell me it's just not a priority issue for them. They'd rather spend their time thinking about issues of greater importance to them. Not everyone is cut out to be a philosopher. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Sep 10, 2006, 11:41 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
EndersGame Rawr Location: Behind you! Posts: 22	You don't need to be a philosopher to think. I don't mind the people who believe there is a god without having proof, it's the people who take his rules/morals/etc. etc. without thinking that irritate me. What is the meaning of life if it isn't yours? ¤´¨) If god created us in his image ¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·`* We have returned him the favor.

Sep 10, 2006, 10:58 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
The 68 Zombie Location: Lincoln County, TN Posts: 99	Which is why I can't judge you for being non-theistic. I can only try to show you what I believe, and let it be until you experience it for yourself. Just someone who is sick and tired of gray areas, political correctness, and the entitlement mindset.

Sep 18, 2006, 06:01 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
EndersGame Rawr Location: Behind you! Posts: 22	I see faith and believing something as two different things. You may not think it suitable but i'll go on anyways. Believing is basically knowing something, like you know that the sun will rise tomorow. Faith is something that you would like to be real and you are fairly sure. Like having faith that someone will not tell your secret. A gut feeling if you will(you know what i mean isher...). If you truly believe in the religion or if you just have faith; it's a great step and not easily taken. Believe me that there are many more people with faith then with belief-whether it is a disagreement with the rules or perfectness or whatever other reasons. So i guess it wouldn't be playing make-believe rather then playing make-faith ¤´¨) If god created us in his image ¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·`* We have returned him the favor.