A conversation with God.

[5010]

Originally posted by Gorgo, I have investigated, and found that prayer does nothing beyond the placebo effect.

What do you think about this?

It refers to a double blind human study.

It also refers to studies on plants and bacteria.

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo:

Oh ye of little faith. Perhaps one day, what do you think?

5010:

Cute!! I wonder what Gorgo's answer will be.

[Gorgo]

http://skepdic.com/prayer.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelate...pics/faith.html

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo:

There but for the Grace of God go I.

I refused to as you say "swallows everything they see, then they will come to the same conclusion as you."

As a child I was exposed to the Baptist and Lutheran churches. Over the years out of curiousity I read a number of books on different faiths, and consulted with friends who were of that faith. All in order that I would make a very personal decision, that only I was responsible for and could make.

It took quire a number of years before I embraced the Pentacostal church and faith, I was 37, and this was after tremendous amount of painstaking research, conversations and the like. I am not easly swayed or convinced of anything, but demand what I fell is irefutable proof.

Subsequently, as they say (and I'm positive that you will disagree with) I saw the light, and everything made sense to me in my human understanding.

Since then, I have a deeper more spiritual understanding, as well as real life experience.

But that is me, and you are you. So goes life. Best regards

[5010]

Originally posted by Gorgo,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Gorgo,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> http://skepdic.com/prayer.html [/b]

From that link:
"That is, if God or some other [Supreme Being] were to answer prayers and heal some patients but not others, depending upon which patients had prayers said for them, then we could never know whether anything occurred due to natural causes or due to divine intervention. No causal study could rule out the possibility that its results were not due directly to [a Supreme Being] interfering with the course of nature. In short, it would be pointless to do causal studies, and hence, pointless to study whether prayer is effective in healing."

Huh? One observes a relationship between prayer and healing therefore it is pointless to observe relationships between prayer and healing because you can't rule out God? Gorgo can you explain it better than they do?

<!--QuoteBegin-Gorgo,

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelate...pics/faith.html
[/quote]

That's a pretty good point. Here are more details about the double blind study. It also indicates evidence of negative effects of relying on faith-based healing alone.

[PhanthomOps]

5010,

The only way you are going to come to an informed decision that is satisfactory to you is to investigate with an "OPEN" mind, and not with preconceived notions. If you approach this with as a skeptic you will come away the same as when you walked in.

If you are serious concerning the effects of prayer and healing, then you need to seek out a Full Gospel Church. A church regardless of the denominational name on the door that truely, and absolutely believes in the power of God to answer prayer and heal. One where you can speak with and question individuals who have experienced this.

I find that those who cling to the "placebo" idea, are negative and skeptical from the start, and are therefore not really open minded enough to honestly consider that which is presented to them.

[5010]

Originally posted by PhanthomOps, 5010, The only way you are going to come to an informed decision that is satisfactory to you is to investigate with an "OPEN" mind, and not with preconceived notions. If you approach this with as a skeptic you will come away the same as when you walked in.

I agree. However if a skeptic raises a valid point, it should be considered, no? Otherwise the mind is not truly open.

[PhanthomOps]

5010,

100% correct, having a certain amount of skepticism is healthy, and is part and parcel of an OPEN Mind.

Just because you approach a subject with an open mind, does not mean you are a sponge absorbing and believing everything presented.

While I haven't been in a war, I have been under fire, twice in fact. Certainly I didn't resort to prayer, I didn't have the time in any case. Nor did the experiences influence my beliefs about religion in any way.

My father was an atheist, he lived and died as one. I sat with him through his last days and watched him turn down priests who offered him the last rights and he died firm in his belief. His funeral had no religious aspects and he didn't want anyone to speak about him. It was a very short affair.

My mother however remains a practising Catholic and the first few years of my education were spent in Catholic schools, which is ironically enough where I turned away from religion. I had a brush with some born agains later in life and hung out with a group of them for awhile, until I found that they were just the same as many others, they just used "God" as an excuse.

On the other hand, I have through my life met many people of strong faith (not only Christian) that I admire and respect and will continue to admire for the way they live their lives and deal with the issues of belief in the modern world. Generally speaking they are also incredibly nice people. Most people I meet that claim to be religious or of faith are little but "Sunday Christians" (using that loosely) and for them I have little but contempt in terms of respect for their beliefs.

For myself, I remain an agnostic, my wife tends to be more of an atheist. Our children are being brought up relatively neutral though we do not hide religion from them, decry it or so on and if they find their way to a church or faith, that will be their choice and I will remain their loving supporting father regardless.

Though of course, it remains to be seen how I would for example deal with one of the kids becoming a Moony of joining some cult of nutcases. Not all religions or faiths are good. Yet, almost to a one, they are all convinced they are the only true way.

And I would have to agree that religion is (though I am not so sure nowadays) the opiate of the people. Oh, and not all communists or socialists have to be atheists either, check out Cuba, even Voodoo has a strong following right along with the Roman Catholics. And in any case, the Christian religions tend to be pretty socialist, the late lamented J.C. (assuming for the sake of argument he did exist) was a real socialist.

[PhanthomOps]

PeterWolf,

I respect you and your opinion, so at this time I will refrain from offering Biblical references for at this time they will only tend to muddy the waters.

Your statement:
"My mother however remains a practising Catholic and the first few years of my education were spent in Catholic schools, which is ironically enough where I turned away from religion. I had a brush with some born agains later in life and hung out with a group of them for awhile, until I found that they were just the same as many others, they just used "God" as an excuse."

1) I can fully relate to this and agree with you. Though I only attended public schools, a number of my girlfriends were Irish / Catholic who attended Catholic School. The stories they told me were of extreme embarassment, demeaning, and insulting, and use of the ruler to students in front of their peers. Being of Italian, English and Sotch decent in New York City I would have more than not been expelled.

2) I am sorry for your experience with the "Born-Agains". Regretfully, many of them once converted to this faith go off the deep-end and become obnoctious to say the least. Many of them require a serious attitude adjustment - they need to remember that they STILL are not perfect, but in our terms saved. I am a Pentacostal Born-Again Christian - However, I don't swing from the chandelers or bounce off walls. I do, however, respect the rights of others to choose for themselves, and refrain from "shoving the Bible down their throat" It is said that you can catch more bees with honey.

Your statement:
"On the other hand, I have through my life met many people of strong faith (not only Christian) that I admire and respect and will continue to admire for the way they live their lives and deal with the issues of belief in the modern world. Generally speaking they are also incredibly nice people. Most people I meet that claim to be religious or of faith are little but "Sunday Christians" (using that loosely) and for them I have little but contempt in terms of respect for their beliefs."

1) I am glad that you have had positive experiences in your relationships in this area, and I hope you have many more.

2) Again, regretfully there are the "Once-a-week 60 minute crowd" who like to proclaim their Christianity in that they faithfully attend Church. One has only to observe their actions for the following six days to determine if they are real or not.

Your statement:
"For myself, I remain an agnostic, my wife tends to be more of an atheist. Our children are being brought up relatively neutral though we do not hide religion from them, decry it or so on and if they find their way to a church or faith, that will be their choice and I will remain their loving supporting father regardless."

That is as it should be.

Your statement:
"Though of course, it remains to be seen how I would for example deal with one of the kids becoming a Moony of joining some cult of nutcases. Not all religions or faiths are good. Yet, almost to a one, they are all convinced they are the only true way."

You are correct in your conclusion, after all we humans don't like to be told we are wrong. As far as the cults are concerned, I at this point would would jump in with both feet and loaded for bear. But that is me.

Thank you for your honesty. Have a great day !!!!! :) :)

[Gorgo]

If prayer is unpredictable, that is, if you pray one time for something and god decides not to obey, and the next time god does obey your commands, then how can that be tested? ??? ?? I guess.

Originally posted by 5010, Huh?  One observes a relationship between prayer and healing therefore it is pointless to observe relationships between prayer and healing because you can't rule out God?  Gorgo can you explain it better than they do?

[PhanthomOps]

Gorgo,

QUOTE (5010,)

Huh? One observes a relationship between prayer and healing therefore it is pointless to observe relationships between prayer and healing because you can't rule out God? Gorgo can you explain it better than they do?

If prayer is unpredictable, that is, if you pray one time for something and god decides not to obey, and the next time god does obey your commands, then how can that be tested? ??? ?? I guess.

Prayer is a religious action asking God to provide. However, many pray with a give-me attitude and intent for their benefit. They pray for many things they do not really "NEED", but instead "Desire to have". Prayer must be accomplished with "Your (God's) will not my mine be done".

God does have three answers to prayer - Yes, No & Wait. We do not have the right to demand or command that God does anything.

There are times when God answers prayer immediately - i.e. true healings of which there many. There are times when He answers prayer in a few days, or weeks. His ways are not ours. We live in an instant gratification society, and have as a result lost our patience and the ability to wait. God states in the Bible, Be still and know I am God.

[5010]

By the way, happy "National Day Of Prayer and Rememberance" (in USA).

May God continue to bless you and all whom you encounter!

[PhanthomOps]

5010,

Happy National Day of Prayer and Rememberance to you as well.

May the peace of God, which passes all understanding, be with you til we meet again. :) :)

[Young]

While many on this board are thinking of Prayer in terms of a single person, God has this massive Matrix of Prayer. Sometimes you find yourself in the right place at the right time, but this requires a lot of work on Gods part. Have you ever seen a car take a curve in the wrong lane or run a stop sign just before you would of been in the way? What delayed You? If You have 3 children all asking for something different, wouldn't You look for the best way to accomodate all 3, might 1 get what they want sooner than the others? What if when You Pray, God is able to tune You in to what You can help accomplish and then God rewards You seeing as how You have helped him. Most things that are Illegal aren't done because they're also Immoral, but some people have better ethics than others.


Young

[PhanthomOps]

Young,

Excellent point - many (not all) people say to themself, "boy was I lucky". I have had numerous instances that you describe, and realized "That but for the Hand of God, go I"

God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.

[Golgo13]

Originally posted by 5010,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (5010,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Gorgo, I have investigated, and found that prayer does nothing beyond the placebo effect.

What do you think about this?

It refers to a double blind human study.

It also refers to studies on plants and bacteria.[/b][/quote]

'No health benefit' from prayer

The world's largest study into the effects of prayer on patients undergoing heart surgery has found it appears to make no difference.