The Nature of Salvation

[dthmstr254]

There are a multitude of theories of salvation out there. There are also many different arguments out there for these views. I open this thread mainly for Christians to debate the complexities of salvation and the permanence thereof. This is my answer to the question of whether salvation and the blessings thereof cannot be lost:

HOW DO WE KNOW THESE BLESSINGS CANNOT BE LOST?

1. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the nature of salvation: (1) Salvation is eternal (Jn. 3:16,36). (2) Salvation is a present possession (Ro. 5; 1 Pe. 2:24-25). (3) Salvation is by imputation and substitution (2 Co. 5:17; Ga. 2:20; He. 9:10; Ro. 3:24). (4) Salvation is positional (Ep. 1:3 -- “in Christ”; Ro. 6:7; Col. 2:10; 3:1-4,12). (5) Salvation is not of human merit; it is a free gift of grace which cannot be mixed with works (Ep. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:3-7; Ro. 3:19-28; 4:4-5; 11:6).

2. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the results of salvation: (1) Eternal life (Jn. 3:16). (2) Justification (Ro. 5:1; 3:19-28). (3) Peace with God (Ro. 5:1). (4) Sure possession of future glory (Ro. 5:2; Col. 3:1-4). (5) Salvation from future wrath (Ro. 5:9). (6) Raised up with Christ (Ro. 6). (7) Blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ (Ep. 1:3). (8) Sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ep. 4:30). (9) Passed from darkness to light (Col. 1:12-14).

3. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the teaching of election: Election does not destroy human responsibility (2 Th. 2:10-13; Ac. 13:46,48), but election does promise security for the believer (Ro. 8:28-39; Ep. 1; 1 Pe. 1:2-7).

4. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because lack of good works involves loss of rewards and fruitfulness, not loss of one’s eternal relationship with Christ (1 Co. 3:15; Tit. 3:14; 2 Jn. 8).

5. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the believer’s union with Christ. The believing sinner is placed “in Christ” and stands or falls with Him (Col. 1:14; Eph. 1-3 -- “in Christ” mentioned 25 times; He. 9:10; 1 Pe. 1:18-23; 2:6,24-25).


Rules of Debate:
This is not and will never turn to be an atheism versus Christianity debate.
Topics outside of salvation need another thread.
All arguments must be made assuming the accuracy of the Bible.
And finally, all arguments must be Biblically supported.
If said rules are unclear to you, please do us all a favor and not post.

[joseph2622]

In my opinion, the accuracy of the Bible, is simply not. Im gonna make this short buy saying Jesus died around 30Bc. Of all the scriptures written none were even before 55Bc. As i said in another thread, doesn't that make room for manipulatioon and story time. There is no prayer and there is no wrath.

[Jack]

The blessings of salvation cannot be lost...

Just to be clear, are you saying that despite my current atheistic outlook, since I was as a teenager saved and baptised that I still am under the umbrella of salvation?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: joseph2622 In my opinion, the accuracy of the Bible, is simply not. Im gonna make this short buy saying Jesus died around 30Bc. Of all the scriptures written none were even before 55Bc. As i said in another thread, doesn't that make room for manipulatioon and story time. There is no prayer and there is no wrath.

And as I said before, this is not a debate about the accuracy of the Bible. This is a debate ASSUMING the accuracy of the Bible. Take this topic ELSEWHERE.

[Chris]

joseph2622,

respecting dthmstr254's opinion, and also adhere to the site's rules.

Respect other opinions: If a topic does not interest you just avoid it and post in another topic. Contributing to a topic to dismiss the very discussion of it will not be tolerated.

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[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Isherwood Just to be clear, are you saying that despite my current atheistic outlook, since I was as a teenager saved and baptised that I still am under the umbrella of salvation?

John 3:36:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A person who believes is in the hand of God and none can pluck him from His hand, not even the believer has power over the destination of his soul once he has accepted salvation.

A set of twins were split up back years and years ago. One went on to be judge of his domain, and the other took a life of a thief. One day, the thief's life caught up with him, and he found himself before his brother. His brother, being an honest judge, judged him to be guilty.
The penalty according to the law, for his crime, was death. He was sitting in a jail and his brother came to visit him. He entered the thief's cell and told him to wear his own robes. Taking off his judge's gown, the brothers switched, and parted, the judge now sitting in the thiefs spot in the cell. THe thief thought the executioner would recognize the difference when time came for the execution. The group led his brother to the gallows, and put him up to the chair. Still, the people did not recognize the judge. The trap door opened, the judge's neck snapping from his own weight hanging there. The thief came running down, yelling at the executioner that they had the wrong man. The executioner just started walking away. Finally, the thief forced the executioner to face him, asking why they did nothing though he was the real criminal. THe executioner told him to go his own way. "Your debt has been paid. You are now a free man." As a Christian, my debt has been paid. It isn't I who paid, it is Jesus Christ. The prosecutor can get no closer to me than in the stands. Now all a person has to do is accept that fact and move on. Now, if it had just been His death, we would not have covered our sin but once. His ressurection puts a stamp on it. Jesus, the same one who paid our debts, now stands as a Mediator between God and man. He is the permanent High Priest, and His blood covers all our sin, past, present, and future. All we have to do is accept that gift. You cannot have a gift if you do not accept it. People just need to take ownership of that gift.

[phoenix_fire]

I don't think that that really answered his question.

[Jack]

Since you seem capable of personal opinion without needing to throw pointless scripture out at every opportunity, phoenix_fire, perhaps you'd be willing to answer the question from your point of view.
Can I ever loose the salvation I once had?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Isherwood Since you seem capable of personal opinion without needing to throw pointless scripture out at every opportunity, phoenix_fire, perhaps you'd be willing to answer the question from your point of view. Can I ever loose the salvation I once had?

Ok, John 3:16, from salvation 101:
For GOd so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Two things in here you look at:
1. Those who believe on Him WILL NOT PERISH. This means that your soul will not perish, and is not referring to the body.
2. Those who believe on Him HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. It isn't temporary life you have. You have EVERLASTING life. As a Christian, there is no loss of salvation.

John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Again, there are two things to look at.
1. Repeat of previous point 2. We have ETERNAL life.
2. No man can pluck a Christian out of God's hand. No man can pluck a Christian out of Jesus's hand. As Christians, we are still men. We do not receive the ability to walk off of God's hand or out of His care. I may be out of His will at times, but I am never, NEVER out of His care.

This is the stumbling stone that any presbyterian (or pentacostal, I always mix the "p" names up with doctrines) will fall over any time. There are a great abundance of passages just like this one that the other scriptures must be interpreted in light of. It does a great dishonor to the Bible to interpret another passage against them without considering these types of scriptures.

[Kuldeep]

I am not Christian, but salvation described in the opening seems to be equvalent to Hindu's Mokhsha (freedom of soul from the cycle of rebirths and its union with the absloute consciousness).

Am I correct in my understanding?

5. The blessings of salvation cannot be lost because of the believer’s union with Christ. The believing sinner is placed “in Christ” and stands or falls with Him (Col. 1:14; Eph. 1-3 -- “in Christ” mentioned 25 times; He. 9:10; 1 Pe. 1:18-23; 2:6,24-25).

As regards union of believer with Christ, I want to know, "Is there any mention about personal Ego of the believer separate to that of Christ's self ego after the union?" Meaning after union would ego of self existence of believer merge with that of Christ' ego or, the two egos exist separately?

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Kuldeep I am not Christian, but salvation described in the opening seems to be equvalent to Hindu's Mokhsha (freedom of soul from the cycle of rebirths and its union with the absloute consciousness). Am I correct in my understanding? As regards union of believer with Christ, I want to know, "Is there any mention about personal Ego of the believer separate to that of Christ's self ego after the union?" Meaning after union would ego of self existence of believer merge with that of Christ' ego or, the two egos exist separately?

I don't understand fully this concept of ego, so I am going to explain the union the way I heard it explained to me:

According to Paul in the book of Romans, we have received the Spirit of adoption. This is one of those things that is easier to understand in light of the laws and culture of the Roman people. The laws about adoption in those days were permanent. In other words, once a person was adopted into the family, they could never leave that family. They could not be disowned, nor disown the family. The inheritance of that family was theirs to have, and permanently so.
We as Christians are adopted into the family of God. Taken in context of the target audience of the book we find that in, our adoption is final. Born naturally to the sin nature of this earth, we have been adopted into the righteous nature of the family of God.
The union is a familial union. Our mind, soul and body are in unity with Christ.

[The 68]

I think everyone here has posted enough scripture to back up my simple view for me. Throughout the Bible, the concept for Christians is to TRUST GOD! If you say you can lose the gift of eternal life, it is in YOUR HANDS to maintain salvation. Scripture makes it clear that you are in GOD's HANDS, and as such, God is keeping you saved, not you.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: The 68 I think everyone here has posted enough scripture to back up my simple view for me. Throughout the Bible, the concept for Christians is to TRUST GOD! If you say you can lose the gift of eternal life, it is in YOUR HANDS to maintain salvation. Scripture makes it clear that you are in GOD's HANDS, and as such, God is keeping you saved, not you.

Exactly my point. Salvation that you can lose is still a works based salvation, however you try to color it. Because salvation is by grace, saying it can be lost is saying that God's grace is not sufficient enough and must be supported by human works. This, in turn, is saying that God is not all-powerful, because it is saying that without our works, we will be plucked out of His hand. This is not true biblical doctrine. The Bible says that those who produce no fruit will be saved, "even though by fire." I am glad that I can say that despite my works, I stand redeemed.

[PatrickHenry]

There will be many that will think they are saved, but on Judgement Day will discover that they are lost.

Matthew 7:21-23

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: PatrickHenry There will be many that will think they are saved, but on Judgement Day will discover that they are lost. Matthew 7:21-23

While this is true (there are those who say they are saved but who never actually accepted the gift of salvation), Once saved one can never lose it. It takes a bad translation of the above quoted passage without consideration of the many promises of HAVING eternal life with salvation. The word in the Greek language is a continuous word. It is not lost. Period, end of story.

[phoenix_fire]

How is it a bad translation? I don't see how changing a single word there would change the meaning. It's pretty explicit.

O, and you still haven't answered Ish's question.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: phoenix_fire How is it a bad translation? I don't see how changing a single word there would change the meaning. It's pretty explicit. O, and you still haven't answered Ish's question.

I did. I said that salvation, once accepted, is permanent. I then backed it up with the appropriate scriptures.

You mistranslate something just a small bit and you can change the meaning completely. Such as with ASL, you can sign a type of school using the flat five hand, but using the curved five hand, you sign bowel movement. BIG change. But you change the tense of having to have and you remove the continuous tense of the word. Having is permanent. I am havING salvation.

[phoenix_fire]

I am aware of the pitfalls of translation, but you did not address how that particular verse was mistranslated. That is what I wanted to know.

And you did not answer the specific question:

Ish says he accepted Christ. Then he changed his mind. Does that past acceptance count even though he's now an athiest, or are you going to say that he could never really have accepted Christ in the first place?

[rez]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I am aware of the pitfalls of translation, but you did not address how that particular verse was mistranslated. That is what I wanted to know. And you did not answer the specific question: Ish says he accepted Christ. Then he changed his mind. Does that past acceptance count even though he's now an athiest, or are you going to say that he could never really have accepted Christ in the first place?

I would think Ish never really accepted salvation.

[phoenix_fire]

I think he might argue with that.