Atheism & Christianity

[Lullaby Chainer]

Christianity provides so many good morals..

Why is there no evidence that Christians are more moral than atheists?

Also, if you're an atheist or non-theist, are you moral? Why?

Christians make up 75% of the United States population.
Christians make up 75% of the prison population

Atheists make up 10% of the United States population.
Atheists only make up 0.2% of the prison population.

Federal Bureau of Prisons, 1997

If you agree with the validity of these statistics (perhaps they've changed. I do not know), how do you explain them?

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Ecclesiastes 4:12
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.
(A relationship that includes God will be much stronger)

In 1999, the Christian sociologist, George Barna, published these results from his study on divorce rate...

"Born Again Christians"
27% chance of divorce

"Mainstream Protestants"
24% chance of divorce

"Atheists and Agnostics"
21% chance of divorce

If you agree with the interpretation of the passage and the validity of the statistics, how do you explain this?

Taken from YouTube - Atheist

[Jack]

if you're an atheist or non-theist, are you moral? Why?

Perhaps not moral in the religious sense, but I do have personal standards of conduct. The one time I violated one of my own major standards, 23 years ago, it filled me with remorse and disappointment that has lasted to this day.

My standards are based on kindness, respect, peace, love, empathy and a desire for harmony between living things. Those attitudes make it easier to exist in society and make my own life acceptable to me. They are human attributes, they don't require a supreme being's commands to practice them.

[ladyphoenix]

Does morality have to be religious in nature? Why have I heard more than once that athiests are also amoral...? Am I missing something?

I would consider myself athiest, I don't believe in anything beyond what I can see, and touch, and hear, or otherwise perceive. But I think I live a very good, moral life. I don't lie or cheat or steal. I try to be compassionate and loving and sincere. I am respectful, and curteous. I try to teach my child right from wrong. Is that not *my* sense of morality?

[phoenix_fire]

I think that one of the problems is that the original stats come from the U.S. In this country, it is quite possible, and indeed very common to merely wake up and consider oneself a Christian. I can tell you that for those of us "religious fanatics", as underbear less than fondly calls me, many people who call themselves Christians do not meet the standard. Calling yourself a Christian in this country is like saying you like Spock at a Star Trek convention. N'duh. Many denominations say that you just have to give a nod to the basic doctrines of Christianity and you're in. Heck. Most people believe in some form of deity, no matter what different names are given. It doesn't mean that it changes anything about them.

My point is that you don't have to act like a Christian to call yourself one.

[another day]

Not to mention prisoners will often claim to have "found god" in order to appear rehabilitated when applying for parole. Therefore those statistics are skewed.

Christianity does not lead to morality, nor does atheism lead to immorality or vice versa for both. Morality stems from individual minds, genes, and upbringing. However, religion can be a guiding path, but this is only because it can be a threatening rulebook with a whip of eternal damnation cracking behind you. I've always been against brainwashing, even if it steers the sheep. Let people find their own way.

[scrappy]

i consider myself a buddhist, its a much more 'free' religion.
For example, all religions say "mate, you gotta do this, this, and that to get there", but the unique thing about buddhism is that there is no god right, so its like "mate, you gotta do this, this, and that to get there - but you don't have to..."
I'm not a vegetarian and i love music, now according to buddhism i shouldn't kill animals or become dependent on emotion in order to gain spiritual enlightenment, but i can do these things still if i want to...brilliant!

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: another day Not to mention prisoners will often claim to have "found god" in order to appear rehabilitated when applying for parole. Therefore those statistics are skewed. Christianity does not lead to morality, nor does atheism lead to immorality or vice versa for both. Morality stems from individual minds, genes, and upbringing. However, religion can be a guiding path, but this is only because it can be a threatening rulebook with a whip of eternal damnation cracking behind you. I've always been against brainwashing, even if it steers the sheep. Let people find their own way.

Please provide information that states prisoners that have “found god” are treated differently.

Please provide information that reports of prisoners lying about their beliefs to receive special treatment.

I'd love to take your word on this, but it would be helpful if you cited your sources!

Quote by: phoenix_fire I think that one of the problems is that the original stats come from the U.S. In this country, it is quite possible, and indeed very common to merely wake up and consider oneself a Christian. I can tell you that for those of us "religious fanatics", as underbear less than fondly calls me, many people who call themselves Christians do not meet the standard. Calling yourself a Christian in this country is like saying you like Spock at a Star Trek convention. N'duh. Many denominations say that you just have to give a nod to the basic doctrines of Christianity and you're in. Heck. Most people believe in some form of deity, no matter what different names are given. It doesn't mean that it changes anything about them. My point is that you don't have to act like a Christian to call yourself one.

That would explain the Christian statistics, but why is the proportion between atheist population in the US to atheist population in prison so much smaller than the proportion between Christian population in the US and Christian population in prison? If one only takes note of the prison populations, one may find that Christians are even less moral then Atheists.

Does your argument apply to marriage? Again, that may explain the statistic, but why are relationships that are consistently without God less likely to end with divorce? A percentage of Christians may simply be calling themselves Christians, and there really isn’t a strong relationship with God in their marriage. But 100% of atheist relationships are completely void of God yet show the exact opposite trend then that of “Christians who aren’t truly Christians”. How does one explain this?

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: ladyphoenix Does morality have to be religious in nature? Why have I heard more than once that athiests are also amoral...? Am I missing something? I would consider myself athiest, I don't believe in anything beyond what I can see, and touch, and hear, or otherwise perceive. But I think I live a very good, moral life. I don't lie or cheat or steal. I try to be compassionate and loving and sincere. I am respectful, and curteous. I try to teach my child right from wrong. Is that not *my* sense of morality?

One distinction that I've heard -- on this board, actually, though I can't remember who said it -- is between morality and ethics: morality often includes a sense of sin and virtue, which implies a religious framework, since it takes a deity to define something as sinful instead of just bad or wrong. Ethics, then, is the body of rules governing conduct created by humankind, by society, or by a specific group. It's not a set of definitions I'd want to argue, particularly, but I find it easier to say that I consider myself amoral, but ethical.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Also, if you're an atheist or non-theist, are you moral? Why?

Just answered that: amoral, but ethical.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Why is there no evidence that Christians are more moral than atheists?

I think it has to do with forgiveness. I think god forgives us a lot easier than we forgive ourselves. Christianity teaches that if you repent for your sins and honestly feel guilty for them, then you will be forgiven and the sins will be washed away. Therefore, when a Christian sins, they are able to quickly feel better about it: Daddy makes everything all right. Atheists, on the other hand, because we only submit to ourselves for judgement, are much harsher; we have created and/or consciously accepted our ideas of what is right and wrong, so when we break those rules, we are violating our own deepest convictions. Not just what we were told is wrong, but what we have decided, what we know deep inside ourselves, is wrong. We don't forgive ourselves easily. I could sit here and recount in specific detail pretty much everything I've ever done that I consider to be bad/wrong, at least all the serious infractions, because I still remember them and I still beat myself up about them. I don't think Christians are the same.

And this one goes farther out on a limb, but it seems to me that atheism has a greater need of a higher intelligence. As Phoenix_Fire said, and I agree, in this country all you have to do is wake up to call yourself a Christian -- what I will refer to now as the "Wake-up Christian." I think that may be slowly changing to include atheists, that some people are raising their children to wake up and call themselves atheists, but for the most part, and almost exclusively in past decades, if one was an atheist and named one's self as such, it was because one had reached that conscious decision after some amount of thought and reflection. Therefore, very dumb people are much more likely to refer to themselves as Christians, rather than atheists, even if they cannot actually read the Bible. Darwin award recipients, for example.

I think the stupid factor would tend to skew the statistics, particularly the crime statistic: if atheists are committing crimes, it's because A) they personally don't consider their crime unethical, and B) they sure as hell aren't going to get caught. Dumb wake-up Christians will get caught far more often, proportional to their criminal activity.

[phoenix_fire]

Because it takes effort to be an athiest. Many people who become athiests are very intelligent (which explains the prison stats), and (sadly) many of them put more thought into what they truly think and believe than many so-called "religious" people. Many are extremely conscientious, engaging in humanitarian endeavors just because they decided it was right. As far as the marriage stats, I think it is a matter of culture. In the traditional "churched" culture, marriage is very highly emphasized. It is often rushed into due to external pressure and falls apart because the two were not emotionally or spiritually prepared for it. I'm 21 and not even dating, and I think my mom has already given up hope. My little sister is getting married this very month. I am reasonably sure that she will end up divorced. The push for marriage isn't as great among athiests. Nor is the push for monogamy. Nor is the push for heterosexuality. I'm not saying that all athiests are unmarried, multiple-partnered homosexuals. All I'm saying is that the taboo is removed. Christians aren't supposed to have sex until marriage. Sometimes, as in my sister's case, marriage is rushed into because it is feared that the two will go ahead and have sex anyway. It's just a totally different culture. And mind you, people who actually put a lot of thought and work into being Christians can avoid some of the pitfalls mentioned above, but I can guarantee you that some family members or friends will still be putting that pressure on you.

[puellamore]

I think that you've hit it pretty accurately, PF.

Atheists (or agnostics or non-theists) for the most part have had to make a conscious decision to become so, and have therefore been forced to also give conscious thought to ethics and values. As such, their acceptance of and adherence to such standards is a bit stronger than, say, someone who is Christian because his parents are, and who blindly parrots the dogma about morality being promoted by his particular church without any deeper thought. That is not to say that there aren't those religious people who do try to think about such things (even if they come up with the wrong answers Sorry, couldn't resist.). Unfortunately, i think that the former represents a much larger group.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: puellamore I think that you've hit it pretty accurately, PF. Atheists (or agnostics or non-theists) for the most part have had to make a conscious decision to become so, and have therefore been forced to also give conscious thought to ethics and values. As such, their acceptance of and adherence to such standards is a bit stronger than, say, someone who is Christian because his parents are, and who blindly parrots the dogma about morality being promoted by his particular church without any deeper thought.

I also think you might be on to something here Phoenix Fire.


As for myself, currenty agnostic, or atheist, and one of the most ethical people I know IRL.


I consider myself a man of priciple, and not many things can make me compromise my principles, or go back on my word.


(...of course, I'm also one of those strange beings that keeps his own coucil, or does not
seek external validation.)


I'm just deep I guess.

[PatrickHenry]

There's lies, damn lies, and statistics...

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: PatrickHenry There's lies, damn lies, and statistics...

Hm? Care to elaborate?

[McAiden]

I'm not surprised at those statistics. Just saying that one is a Christian doesn't necessarily mean they follow the teachings of Jesus the Christed one. Some, not all, think they are the only ones going to "heaven" because they belong to this or that religion. Isn't that rather dumb? The Baptist think this, as does the Catholic, and on and on, all of them.

Maybe the athiests see this rather hypocritical, silly, thinking of religion so give up on any concept of God at all. Good for them. Getting rid of old dead thinking makes room for new, proven, thoughts. Education is the key.

[Fangrim]

I think pheonix_fire and puellamore have provided a suitable explanation for these statisitics. I'm siding with their analysis on this. Christianity does provide a pretty good moral system all around (like many religions), and nobody can really deny that. That doesn't mean its adherents perfectly follow it though. There are plenty of other factors that would account for these stats.

[belverron]

I don't think a system of morality cobbled together from an out-of-date book can possibly compete with a coherent philosophy. It seems like Christians always have to make excuses for trifling matters (like slavery) in their book when in a more logical approach answers are much more intuitive.

Read Locke on slavery if you get a chance. His arguments always rest first on logic and then on scripture. See how well the slavery one stands up. Or just guess; I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

[Jack]

Maybe the athiests see this rather hypocritical, silly, thinking of religion so give up on any concept of God at all.

In my life, no. First I gave up on the concept of god(s). Then I came to be aware of the hypocritical, silly thinking of the theists around me.
I couldn't appreciate their lack of reason until I'd regained my own.

[rez]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Because it takes effort to be an athiest. Many people who become athiests are very intelligent (which explains the prison stats), and (sadly) many of them put more thought into what they truly think and believe than many so-called "religious" people. Many are extremely conscientious, engaging in humanitarian endeavors just because they decided it was right. As far as the marriage stats, I think it is a matter of culture. In the traditional "churched" culture, marriage is very highly emphasized. It is often rushed into due to external pressure and falls apart because the two were not emotionally or spiritually prepared for it. I'm 21 and not even dating, and I think my mom has already given up hope. My little sister is getting married this very month. I am reasonably sure that she will end up divorced. The push for marriage isn't as great among athiests. Nor is the push for monogamy. Nor is the push for heterosexuality. I'm not saying that all athiests are unmarried, multiple-partnered homosexuals. All I'm saying is that the taboo is removed. Christians aren't supposed to have sex until marriage. Sometimes, as in my sister's case, marriage is rushed into because it is feared that the two will go ahead and have sex anyway. It's just a totally different culture. And mind you, people who actually put a lot of thought and work into being Christians can avoid some of the pitfalls mentioned above, but I can guarantee you that some family members or friends will still be putting that pressure on you.

Christianity has higher standards, therefore, gives people a false impression of how to act moral. The flaws you listed within Christianity deal with how the Church tries to control people's natural urges. Most of the human population can not realistically control having sex because it is not natural to do so.

I think the reasons why religious people do not "truly" think about their beliefs deals with the Church itself. The Church specifically says salvation can only be reached if you believe in their god and morals. This makes people panic and causes them to follow Christianity out of fear.

There are many different ways to act moral, Christianity is not the truth nor is any religion or belief. Maybe if Religion did not force feed morals to children at such a young age those statistics about Christians wouldn't be high. Of course those statistics are only like that because most of the American population is Christian. The point still stands, if Christians stop shoving their beliefs down people's throats, there wouldn't be such a high rate of divorce, prison population etc..

Maybe it should take effort to become a Christian too.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: belverron I don't think a system of morality cobbled together from an out-of-date book can possibly compete with a coherent philosophy. It seems like Christians always have to make excuses for trifling matters (like slavery) in their book when in a more logical approach answers are much more intuitive. Read Locke on slavery if you get a chance. His arguments always rest first on logic and then on scripture. See how well the slavery one stands up. Or just guess; I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Was there an argument mixed in there? Quit making broad and baseless ad homs, belverron. Remember: I know where you live.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez Christianity has higher standards, therefore, gives people a false impression of how to act moral. The flaws you listed within Christianity deal with how the Church tries to control people's natural urges. Most of the human population can not realistically control having sex because it is not natural to do so. I think the reasons why religious people do not "truly" think about their beliefs deals with the Church itself. The Church specifically says salvation can only be reached if you believe in their god and morals. This makes people panic and causes them to follow Christianity out of fear. There are many different ways to act moral, Christianity is not the truth nor is any religion or belief. Maybe if Religion did not force feed morals to children at such a young age those statistics about Christians wouldn't be high. Of course those statistics are only like that because most of the American population is Christian. The point still stands, if Christians stop shoving their beliefs down people's throats, there wouldn't be such a high rate of divorce, prison population etc.. Maybe it should take effort to become a Christian too.

Well, you're being pretty broad about it. Christianity is subdivided into many different sects that may or may not agree with each other. When done right, Christianity shouldn't just be a list of rules and consequences. And it should take effort. True Christianity is a faith that one follows out of love and reverence for God. We do so not out of fear or any such motivation, but because we are so devoted to the real person of God and to others around us that we naturally want to do what is right. This is stated over and over in the Bible.

Controlling "natural urges" is actually a good thing. I may have a natural urge to kick someone's butt into next Tuesday. Controlling that is a good thing. I may have a natural urge to eat every brownie in a two mile radius, but it is better for me to control that urge. Teenage boys have a natural urge to bed with anything that walks, and controlling that is a good thing too.

And I don't see what "shoving their beliefs down people's throats" has to do with "a high rate of divorce, prison population etc..".