Animals and Ego

[Technosoul]

Do animals have an ego like us humans?
We know that some animals, like dogs, can be trained or loved into being of service to others, mainly relative to an relationship with humans. And so is Ego different then selfless devotion to the will or needs of another?

Is the ego simply a product of human imagination for the sake of naming a process of establishing a self image or self-idenity? And can animals imagine such self images?

Got any input or speculations to share for debate purposes?

[Osborn F Enready]

Trust, respect and loyalty go between animals and people, to some degree.

That is my perspective in a nutshell.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Trust, respect and loyalty go between animals and people, to some degree. That is my perspective in a nutshell.

Those are pretty high virtures for animals to express and that would suggest that humans do not have much of a leg up on animals when it comes to it, at least not the "thinking department" of our pyhic. Some dogs have what might be a religious relationship with their human masters simular to the kind of relationship some humans believe they have with God, or their Lord. So I guess animals can also be as religious as are some humans. What'cha think?

[Osborn F Enready]

Techno said: Those are pretty high virtures for animals to express and that would suggest that humans do not have much of a leg up on animals when it comes to it, at least not the "thinking department" of our pyhic.

I say:
I don't agree there.

Simply having trust for a being is an act of repitition.(you always feed your pet regularly.)
Respect can be trained, or natural.(in animals I believe it is mostly trained, some natural.)
Loyalty is a trait some pets have more than others.(as do some animals more than others.)

There is a huge difference in animal and man though, when it comes to reason, logic and levels of perception manipulation.

A pet may act fiercer when wounded, but that is one of the only times you see pets "playing" with other animals emotions unless it is to establish pecking order.

Very different in my opinion, but not necessarily unreachable by evolution and time.

Techno said: Some dogs have what might be a religious relationship with their human masters simular to the kind of relationship some humans believe they have with God, or their Lord. So I guess animals can also be as religious as are some humans. What'cha think?

I say:
Again, I disagree. We project a lot of ourselves into what we perceive from animals. Even facial expressions are not crossovers of clarity, mainly because we can't communicate.

I think animals are simply lower beasts on the food chain than man, and someday, perhaps necessity will force them to evolve, especially the more that are raised with humans and breed others from the same gene line to be with humans.

All animals are different though, including the reasoning ones.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Technosoul Do animals have an ego like us humans? We know that some animals, like dogs, can be trained or loved into being of service to others, mainly relative to an relationship with humans. And so is Ego different then selfless devotion to the will or needs of another? Is the ego simply a product of human imagination for the sake of naming a process of establishing a self image or self-idenity? And can animals imagine such self images? Got any input or speculations to share for debate purposes?

I have somehow not seen this thread earlier. Ego is a term which has many synonyms such as pesonality, character, self, self image, sense of self, opinion of self, self worth, self esteem etc.

What I understand from the word Ego is the sense of self existance as individual. If this is what Techno means by Ego, then definitely all living beings including micro-organisms have Ego, what to speak of gross animals. Even if ego is self pride, jealousy, greed etc all that also exist with all living beings. I may be termed lunatic if I would say it occurs even in plants since, Sir J.C. Boss proved plants too have life. Anybody having life in biological language, Ego (sense of self) has to be there. I do not have any doubt about that.

[Sonart]

.
Honor Among Beasts
Think altruism, empathy and a sense of fair play are traits only humans possess? Think again -- TIME Magazine, July 14, 2005

--"Only a decade or so ago, scientists were arguing vigorously over whether animals had emotions: just because a dog looks sad or a chimp appears to be embarrassed doesn't mean it really is, the skeptics said. That argument is pretty much over. The idea of animal emotion is now accepted as part of mainstream biology. And thanks to Bekoff and other researchers, ethologists are also starting to accept the once radical idea that some animals--primarily the social ones such as dogs, chimps, hyenas, monkeys, dolphins, birds and even rats--possess not just raw emotions but also subtler and more sophisticated mental states, including envy, empathy, altruism and a sense of fairness. "They have the ingredients we use for morality," says Frans de Waal, a professor of primate behavior at Emory University in Atlanta, referring to the monkeys and chimps he studies."--

Does this qualify as 'ego' or true self-awareness. If not, it seems pretty darn close.

.

[Kuldeep]

Sonart, thanks for the current scientific information about animals! Living beings having sense of fairness, morality ingriedients and the like, ought to have sense of self existance which I termed as Ego. So, defintely my assumption that all living beings do have ego seems to be correct. What about plants??

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Sonart . Honor Among Beasts Think altruism, empathy and a sense of fair play are traits only humans possess? Think again -- TIME Magazine, July 14, 2005 --"Only a decade or so ago, scientists were arguing vigorously over whether animals had emotions: just because a dog looks sad or a chimp appears to be embarrassed doesn't mean it really is, the skeptics said. That argument is pretty much over. The idea of animal emotion is now accepted as part of mainstream biology. And thanks to Bekoff and other researchers, ethologists are also starting to accept the once radical idea that some animals--primarily the social ones such as dogs, chimps, hyenas, monkeys, dolphins, birds and even rats--possess not just raw emotions but also subtler and more sophisticated mental states, including envy, empathy, altruism and a sense of fairness. "They have the ingredients we use for morality," says Frans de Waal, a professor of primate behavior at Emory University in Atlanta, referring to the monkeys and chimps he studies."-- Does this qualify as 'ego' or true self-awareness. If not, it seems pretty darn close. .

hehehehe...and when more and more answers are forthcoming propelling them even closer to ourselves in many aspects, a critical tipping point will have arrived in our view and treatment of them and what they deserve. Not only the ARists will push the debate in that direction, but so, too will the scientists, ethologists, and philosophers, and ethicists. We can already see this happening. The excerpt above is a prime example of the steps in that direction.

Good reference, Sonart.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Humbling one's self, too, is a display of ego. Many will humble one`s self to another when the other holds the power to take one`s life from them. In the book, Eating Apes, it is described how hunters in Africa`s bushmeat trade how chimpanzees in the face of iminant death act.

Hunters also describe chimpanzees who “when wounded and cornered and about to meet their death, will turn and beg for their lives. They beg with precisely the sort of expressive postures and gestures (a hunched bow, outstretched arms. Pleading facial expression) that hunters see among human beggars in the city” (Peterson 54).

The passage of that book can be found in this PDF philosophical essay on-line here: We Are Who We Eat: Eating Apes, Eating Cows -- pg. 10

[Athena]

How do we know who we are? What of the person who has amnesia? To a large degree our concept of who we are depends on memory. This isn't just memory to the people and events of our lives, but also a memory of how it "feels" to be who we are. That "feeling" that assures us we are who we think we are, is generated by a thinking habit. For example, I have this most annoying habit of thinking of dreadful things could happen, and this seems to be my way of constantly reassuring myself, I am who I think I am. The feeling of dread is my habitual feeling. Yup, there is that feeling= I am me. Instead of Decartes "I think therefore I am", it is, I feel terrible so this must be me.

I don't think other animals do this. I don't think they think about who are they are and all the possible good things, and possible bad things, that could happen to them and contemplate the meaning of their lives, and why God allows bad things to happen to good people. They establish an order among themselves, and know to whom they must submit and who will submit to them, but I don't think they ponder this, any more than we ponder turning a light on or off and the meaning of who we are. I don't think their minds constantly chatter asking stupid questions like, am I a valuable person, or just a parisite on the face of the earth? Without all these stupid questions, how would an animal build a concept of self, that is an ego to preserved in ballards and biographies, or great monuments with bigger then life statues of our likeness. I don't think a dog would sit in front of a statue of himself and feel glorified and pleased that his image will remain for many generations if not centuries, nor will he fear god's punishment.

[Kuldeep]

Athena welcome back after a pretty long time! In one sentence I can tell you that your main ego is not connected with memory but with the feeling you mentioned yourself. Exactly in the same fashion Dog has a feeling he is. So has every living being right up to micro-organism. I wonder how you think animals do not feel they are. Does it mean a pet bird or animal just like that recognises its master without the feeling of its personified existence of itself?

A man with amneshia would not remember who he is but, he would continue to have feeling "he is" unless otherwise he unconscious or sleeping or brain is damaged due to inherent disease or outside accident.

[Fonceai]

Are we talking about Ego as in the sense of individuality?

The whole Ayn-Rand-Anthem-sense-of-self thing?

[Kuldeep]

I do not know about others, Fonceai but I translated Ego that way only! Pure deep rooted ego of self has nothing to do with memory. It so happens sometimes that even with blank mind also we still feel we are something or say we still exist as something unexplainable!

[Fonceai]

@Kuldeep

I would think animals have Ego.

Think of any predatory animal. They are territorial.

That implies a sense of ownership, which implies a degree of Ego.

[brien]

Quote by: Technosoul Do animals have an ego like us humans? We know that some animals, like dogs, can be trained or loved into being of service to others, mainly relative to an relationship with humans. And so is Ego different then selfless devotion to the will or needs of another? Is the ego simply a product of human imagination for the sake of naming a process of establishing a self image or self-idenity? And can animals imagine such self images? Got any input or speculations to share for debate purposes?

Since the term Ego is one coined by Freud, we would have to assume if animals other than humans have an ego, then too, they would also have to possess and id and a superego
The id implies their "animal" instinct and the superego implies a feeling of moral supervision. If the animal lacks any other the three parts of the presence of the mind, then perhaps it negates the existence of the others. In other words, can the ego exist without the presence of the id or the superego?

Your link:Structure of Mind: Freud's Id, Ego, & Superego

Dummies::Understanding the Id, Ego, and Superego in Psychology


In the context of these definitions, I am not sure that we don't assign a personality to our animal friends.