Can people change?

[Captain Chaos]

Ickle Munchkin, in a different thread, expressed the belief that people cannot change.

What do you guys think? Can people change?


I think they can. I claim to be more responsible than I used to be - but then, the underlying reason for this is rather obvious. I used to have to take large amounts of oral narcotics - it was awful. Now that I am not in pain, I do not have to take pain medicine, and thus do not experience the mind-numbing side effects of them.

So, by default, I am more capable of dealing with the world than I used to be.



There are other things. I used to be quite insecure - now I am not.



But, how could we convince someone who does not believe that people can change, that in fact they can? I see this as an exercise in optimism.


Certainly there are plenty of people who have abandoned bad habits, like smoking - I think this would count as a form of personal change. People change political and religious beliefs.

Is there any evidence that irresponsible people can become responsible members of society?

[Ickle munchkin]

Like you said, that's a change in beliefs, you have not changed. Why did you give up drugs exactly?

[PatrickHenry]

Sure, life is change.

Maybe Munchkin means that a person's essential character doesn't change...

[Captain Chaos]

Like you said, that's a change in beliefs, you have not changed. Why did you give up drugs exactly?

I had a medical condition that put me in continuous pain. When I was no longer in pain, I no longer needed the drugs.

Hence, I stopped using them.



How is a change in belief not a change?


During my first two years of college I goofed off and made mediocre grades. During my second two years of college, I got serious and made good grades.

So, I became more responsible over my time in college. How could someone not see that as changing?

[Captain Chaos]

Maybe Munchkin means that a person's essential character doesn't change...

In fact, I had a respected psychologist and researcher tell me the same thing - that by your mid 20s, your character was pretty much set. The changes that took place from there, according to him, were more in the line of refining and expanding upon certain character traits.

I was interviewing him for some story I was working on at the time (I used to be a medical news producer at CNN - and we got onto this discussion of changing one's nature. I asked him how someone could, for example, overcome shyness.

He said that seriously hard work at learning social skills could do it, but that it would only change outward behaviors. An introvert would not turn into an extrovert. Instead, he would be an introvert who forces himself to interect frequently with others.

However, as an aside, he did say that in fact somewhat more profound changes could be made with the use of medications, such as ADD drugs or antidepressants. He said that the best treatment, in his opinion, for shyness (social anxiety disorder) is prozac, or other SSRIs.



I think, however, that even if one's basic nature does not change with a little medical assistance - the various ways in which your core personality can be expressed is vast.

Having had many conversations with homeless folk - I know that some of them used to be successful, but dropped out and gave up when times got hard.

Thus, a bum is not necessarily born to be a bum. Rather, one might have the potential for bumness, but that may or may not manifest depending upon various circumstances.

Rather than nature vs. nurture, think of it as nature and nurture interacting.


I have also talked to former homeless folk who were holding steady jobs. If their nature did not change, surely the day-to-day expression of their character had changed, as evidenced by their change in life circumstance.

[Ickle munchkin]

Bums are bums cause they are losers, they can't take the pain. We all have our limits. I do believe in bad luck, but there is always a way to crawl back out that hole if you care enough to try.

[Captain Chaos]

Bums are bums cause they are losers, they can't take the pain. We all have our limits. I do believe in bad luck, but there is always a way to crawl back out that hole if you care enough to try.

Well, ok - but your statement implies an ability to change. It implies that, if you care enough, you can change your approach to life so that you are no longer a bum.

Are you saying that caring or not caring is genetic?

[Ickle munchkin]

i'm saying either you have what it takes or you don't.

[Captain Chaos]

i'm saying either you have what it takes or you don't.

But, surely you must acknowledge that there are people who have the capacity to be happy and successful, but have learned poor behaviors that lead them to unhappiness?

[Jack]

Bums are bums cause they are losers, they can't take the pain.

I dislike, distrust and usually ignore blanket statements spoken in ignorance of all possible causes and conditions. If it makes you feel better (more superior than others) to believe that simplistic statement, then by all means, do. Don't be surprised that I find such comments shallow and unworthy of debate.

As to the thread topic; can people change what? Their behaviors, core beliefs, reactions, opinions, underwear? I suspect some personality traits may be hardwired by the time we're in our 20's, but many people act in contradiction to their personalities. Behaviors can be changed, opinions can change, prejudices can be changed. At what level of our humanity are you looking? And are you referring to temporary, situational changes or deep, profound changes in personality?

[Mia]

There are people who have crawled out of drug addiction and homelessness to work and become part of society again. I know someone who's drug addiction put him in this spot and he is clean now and working and I admire him a lot.

Sometimes the difference b/t a bum and someone with temporary difficulties is family support.

And what of the mentally ill?

I saw people straight out of prison who directly went back do doing and dealing drugs. And some who went to programs and changed thier lives.

Those of us born into relative priviledge have no idea what it's like to pull yourself out of a hole by oneself.

I had some setbacks I sometimes feel I can't catch up from. And then there is my friend, who has no family or home full or furniture and a car like I have, and he's more optimistic about turning things around than I am. And he's battling a serious drug addiction.

Sometimes I feel he has more strength and character than I.

[Fonceai]

I agree that the person at the core doesn't ever change.

What changes are your priorities, beliefs, and how you act on them.

There was a time I cheated on girlfriends without a second thought. Now, for multiple reasons in every aspect, I wouldn't cheat on my wife.

That doesn't mean I've changed, it means I've changed my behavior.

Just becaus you can change someone's behavior doesn't mean you've changed the person. It just means that you were able to give them a new perspective that led them to rearrange their priorities.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Of course people can change. But this is a very broad statement. What people? When? How? You mean change for the better(by better i mean empowered) or for the worse(worse as in docile)?

Usually if someone is seen as someone that needs to change it means that there is something missing. I think if you compensate for that void then you could have change.

[Captain Chaos]

There was a time I cheated on girlfriends without a second thought. Now, for multiple reasons in every aspect, I wouldn't cheat on my wife. That doesn't mean I've changed, it means I've changed my behavior.

That's a pretty damn big change in behavior. A change of that magnitude seems to fly right in the face of Ickle_Munchkin's beliefs.




So, can a bum become a not-bum?

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Captain Chaos So, can a bum become a not-bum?

That ties right into Plasma's comment about different types of change.

Quote by: Ickle Bums are bums cause they are losers, they can't take the pain. We all have our limits. I do believe in bad luck, but there is always a way to crawl back out that hole if you care enough to try.

Bums are bums because sometimes bad things happen to lazy people, and sometimes bad things happen to very good people.

If my wife and I were to buy a house right now, we wouldn't be able to afford it. We would be in serious debt and would not be able to sell the house for as much as we paid.

And because all of our income is going to trying to make mortgage payments, we wouldn't have the deposit necessary to get an apartment.

So we'd end up on the streets and would STILL have college loans looming over us. But since we're on the streets with a 1 year old, she would be taken away and sent to a good home.

IF I still had a job while living on the streets, any money I made would disappear to paying off those college loans, which don't disappear when you claim bankruptcy if they are Federal loans.

Since I would gradually not be very up-to-standards as far as dress, appearance, and hygiene, eventually I would be fired.

And THEN how do I get a job?

It sounds extreme, but it happens every day, to both the uneducated and the highly educated.

The trick is to regard each of them as a good person who is down on their luck. If there is evidence to the contrary, that's fine, but making a blanket statement that all bums are losers shows a lack of compassion for the fact that "shit happens."

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Shit does indeed happen. You gotta learn to walk away from it(for one thing it smells bad and it attracts flies). Metaphorically speaking of course.

[dsanthony]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Ickle Munchkin, in a different thread, expressed the belief that people cannot change. What do you guys think? Can people change? I think they can. I claim to be more responsible than I used to be - but then, the underlying reason for this is rather obvious. I used to have to take large amounts of oral narcotics - it was awful. Now that I am not in pain, I do not have to take pain medicine, and thus do not experience the mind-numbing side effects of them. So, by default, I am more capable of dealing with the world than I used to be. There are other things. I used to be quite insecure - now I am not. But, how could we convince someone who does not believe that people can change, that in fact they can? I see this as an exercise in optimism. Certainly there are plenty of people who have abandoned bad habits, like smoking - I think this would count as a form of personal change. People change political and religious beliefs. Is there any evidence that irresponsible people can become responsible members of society?

What you are asking is NOT can people change. People change all the time. To be more specific, you are asking if people WILL change in ways that you deem to be socially responsible.

The answer to that is that people will only change when they see it is in their best interests to do so.

[GodBlessAmerica]

If a person is young, they can change.

If they are an adult, for the most part behavior is set, but behavior is still possible to change if the motivation and payoff is there.

Then there is the rare life changing experience that can change people, like surviving cancer, surviving getting shot or some profound religious experience that personally effects your life (a massive born-again) experiance.... but that is fairly rare.

Often tragedy makes people stronger and if people survive life threatening things they tend to look at life a whole other way which changes how them experience and live in the world.

In most cases though, adults don't change and usually a once a drug user, always a tweaker.

[underbear1]

I changed, I quit acting straight

[Mia]

Underbear, is being an out-and-proud gay man new to you? I am astounded at the ways you can find to work it into every conversation.

There are several gay men on this forum and you are the only one who does this. Why? What purpose does it serve?