"When God is Kind, why Sufferings at All !!!"

[Kuldeep]

Over many of current threads, debated fights continue between theists and atheists over the existence of God or No God! From the whole of discussion, I found it either a win, win game or lose, lose game till today (this time of writing).

To answer the question of Ghumanto "If God is almighty, kind and ..........then why there are so many wars? Why can't He stop the sufferings? Why little children get raped ...............; , I need the help of both theists and atheists. The combined help would in turn help me to frame a reasonable and logical answer to again a reasonable and logical question.

I can only hint that the answer should be equally true on the basis of both God exists and God does not exist. I would not be surprised, the proper answer to the question may even end the debate God exist or does not exist!!! Yeh, one is free to take help of Science.

Now, I am putting the question open to all. In the mean time, I would also keep thinking about the logical answer.

[tinybear]

Who said God was kind all of the time?

[lightgigantic]

Well to begin with there is the premise that god is superior to us - evidenced by the fact that we are subject to illusion, ignorance etc which leads to wrath, envy etc etc - so it carries through that god is not subject to inferior traits just because we are.

As an analogy, we see that even in relationships between a parent and a child that the parent has a superior character - ie can tolerate dualities a bit better (lol - hopefully) - anyway - if the child is crying because their imaginary friend is hungry and their mother is not feeding the imaginary person, is the mother being kind or unkind?

The point is that it is difficult for us to properly understand what is god's kindness or unkindness - sure a lot of things happen to us in this world - but you see that all these things happen to the body - but then there is a lot of scriptural evidence that the body is just a covering for the soul - just like if some one tore off your jacket and jumped up and down on it you would be a bit agitated and disturbed but in essence you are untouched - in the same way our bodies go through so many agitations in this life - all to help us come to the point of revitalising our relationship with god - that is god's kindness - the ability to actually think of him, whether they be conditioned by happiness or distress

[Zhavric]

Well, there are largely two versions of "god". There's the infantile right-wing Christian fundy god who's like Santa Claus; allegedly an actual "person" of great power not unlike the ancient Greek gods (except without the petty jealousies and human flaws... well, not really lol).

There other version if the one lightgigantic is hinting at where "god" is more an ideal than an actual entity.

The question posed in the op is much more apt for the first, more infantile view of god. If he's an entity and powerful enough to cause miracles, then why allow suffering?

The Christian argument has two answers, one for will-based suffering (such as murder or rape) and the other for unwilled suffering (such as an earthquake or tsunami). There's free will for willed suffering and The Fall for unwilled suffering. Neither one is particularly compelling and both are far too logically flawed to even bother hashing through. Both are based on unsound premesise and use unsupported claims as "evidence" of other unsupported claims.

Since we know gods are fabrications of humans we know that there is no god.

Since we know that a being that is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving would HAVE to stop suffering, we know that god does not exist. Logically, he cannot.

[jesjen]

God is a loving God because despite our sin nature, and all of the horrible things that come from it, He has given us a way out through His Son. Jesus was the altimate sacrifice, and I for one, didn't deserve that.
Zhavric, when taken into consideration everything in this world, from the smallest grain of sand, to the miracle of human life, logically one would have to submit to a "higher power", I know Him as Jehovah God.
Is that batman? (just curious)

[dreamer]

so if you have a presents of god in your own reality would this not be god. Dreamer

[Fangrim]

I don't think many fellow Christians would agree with me, but my current view (that has only risen in the last year) is that, in fact, God is NOT all-loving. I don't think God fits any of our adjectives of loving, caring, kind, or even good. God kills, God murders, God delights in destruction. Yet, God saves, God heals, God delights in our happiness. God is God, and that's it. There's no point in even trying to describe him. Thus, IMO, the question "why does he cause suffering" can't be answered from the start, because we don't know his intentions or purposes in anything.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: jesjen Zhavric, when taken into consideration everything in this world, from the smallest grain of sand, to the miracle of human life, logically one would have to submit to a "higher power", I know Him as Jehovah God.

Did the people in the picture move the rocks behind them to that specific location or did the rocks just happen to fall there?

Assuming god exists based on the universe as is... it's just wishful thinkin' luv.

Is that batman? (just curious)

The Kurgan.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fangrim I don't think many fellow Christians would agree with me, but my current view (that has only risen in the last year) is that, in fact, God is NOT all-loving. I don't think God fits any of our adjectives of loving, caring, kind, or even good. God kills, God murders, God delights in destruction. Yet, God saves, God heals, God delights in our happiness. God is God, and that's it. There's no point in even trying to describe him. Thus, IMO, the question "why does he cause suffering" can't be answered from the start, because we don't know his intentions or purposes in anything.

You're almost there, friend. Just a few more steps.

[Apeman81]

God, for me the God of Abraham, the Christian God, has imbued his children with the gift of free will. We can choose to accept redemption purchased by the blood of Christ, or we can reject it.

Given that we are not created as sycophants, the choice is ours.

With that in mind, if God were to interfere in the affairs of man to the extent that he suppressed all suffering, what decision, what leap of faith would be required?

Christ suffered and died to bring grace to all men. Their was a price to be paid.

Through Christ, everlasting life can be attained. There is a price to be paid. You must acknowledge your own imperfection, accept that you are a sinner and are incapable to doing anything to earn salvation, and accept Christ into your heart.

[twoanickel]

Quote by: Zhavric Well, there are largely two versions of "god". There's the infantile right-wing Christian fundy god who's like Santa Claus; allegedly an actual "person" of great power not unlike the ancient Greek gods (except without the petty jealousies and human flaws... well, not really lol). There other version if the one lightgigantic is hinting at where "god" is more an ideal than an actual entity. The question posed in the op is much more apt for the first, more infantile view of god. If he's an entity and powerful enough to cause miracles, then why allow suffering? The Christian argument has two answers, one for will-based suffering (such as murder or rape) and the other for unwilled suffering (such as an earthquake or tsunami). There's free will for willed suffering and The Fall for unwilled suffering. Neither one is particularly compelling and both are far too logically flawed to even bother hashing through. Both are based on unsound premesise and use unsupported claims as "evidence" of other unsupported claims. Since we know gods are fabrications of humans we know that there is no god. Since we know that a being that is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving would HAVE to stop suffering, we know that god does not exist. Logically, he cannot.

Notice Zhavric's opening comment about an "infantile, right wing Christian fundy God who is like Santa Claus" and compare that with his closing comment: "since we know that a being that is all powerful, all knowing and all loving would HAVE (sic) to stop suffering, we know that God does not exist."

See his confusion of mind? First he ridicules the idea of a God who is like Santa Claus, then with his closing comment he says in effect that a being infinite in His power, knowledge and love would "HAVE" (sic) to stop suffering. That is, in effect, Zhavric's suspension of God's existence upon whether or not He is the Santa Claus which he earlier derides as "infantile." Both ideas are only the imaginary god of those who have a mad delusion that if God exists, He must be either everyone's Santa Claus or else the lap dog of humans whose job is to keep them happy and make sure nothing happens to disrupt their comfort and safety. AHEM!! In other words, Zhavric suspends God's existence upon whether or not God does as Zhavric thinks He should. If God doesn't do this or that for Zhavric, God doesn't (can't possibly) exist.

God IS omnipotent, omniscient, and a God of love, but He is also a God of Judgment.
"God hath made all things for Himself; even the wicked for the day of evil." Zhavric doesn't know anything about the God of Scripture, yet he pontificates upon what is and what is not a proper Christian apologetic and proper theology

[Amuse]

The concept that "God" has human traits is the fabrication of man in an attempt to explain mans reason for being. If you are a "follower" of Christ that is all you are doing- "following". Someone else has set the parameters for you and said "This is what God wants you to do or the concequenses are death/damnation" The person who has set these parameters is a self appointed leader. Lead his brothers and sisters out of slavery after convincing Pharoh that his God was responsible for the ten plagues that befell the land. (Science has shown that these plagues where a natural phenomonem, one causing the next.) He went off into the desert alone (no witnesses) and said God spoke to him and gave him a set of rules to live by (this took forty years) and ever since man has been trying to reconcile his beliefs of just who God is and why bad things happen to good, God loving people. Its clear that "most" people are afraid to die because "most" are unsure of what awaits them on the other side. The belief that "this is the only life you get so do it right" has never been seriously challenged.
We haven't found a way to understand the alfa of creation yet except to make the creator just like us.

[Captain Chaos]

The evidence from Near Death Experiences paints a very rational picture of reality:

1) We live lifetimes in order to gain experiences and grow.

2) The combination of good and bad that we experience during our lifetimes is important to our personal growth - even the really bad suffering.

3) It is temporary, out of the unbelievably long period of your total existence, a few (or a few thousand) lifetimes with suffering in them is not such a horrible thing. To be fair, suffering sucks really bad while you are experiencing it, but with time and distance from the experience, it is not so bad.

4) You chose to enter this lifetime, knowing that suffering could occur. You did so to further your own development.

5) God is, in fact, a god of love. The suffering you experience during your lifetimes helps you understand the importance of possessing love and caring for others.

[Amuse]

God IS omnipotent, omniscient, and a God of love, but He is also a God of Judgment.
"God hath made all things for Himself; even the wicked for the day of evil." Zhavric doesn't know anything about the God of Scripture, yet he pontificates upon what is and what is not a proper Christian apologetic and proper theology[/quote]

Your description of your God may work for you but what you fail to realize is this describes a God who lacks something so He created us to fill His void. You say we have a choice to follow Him or suffer. That's not a choice but an ultimatum. Your description is not of a loving God but of a conditional God. If that is the God you choose to follow, blessings. Your walk is one of seperating man from man which is counter to being One with God.
You reject some in favor of others just as your God does.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Captain Chaos The evidence from Near Death Experiences paints a very rational picture of reality: 1) We live lifetimes in order to gain experiences and grow. 2) The combination of good and bad that we experience during our lifetimes is important to our personal growth - even the really bad suffering. 3) It is temporary, out of the unbelievably long period of your total existence, a few (or a few thousand) lifetimes with suffering in them is not such a horrible thing. To be fair, suffering sucks really bad while you are experiencing it, but with time and distance from the experience, it is not so bad. 4) You chose to enter this lifetime, knowing that suffering could occur. You did so to further your own development. 5) God is, in fact, a god of love. The suffering you experience during your lifetimes helps you understand the importance of possessing love and caring for others.

Well said.

[twoanickel]

Quote by: Amuse The concept that "God" has human traits is the fabrication of man in an attempt to explain mans reason for being. If you are a "follower" of Christ that is all you are doing- "following". Someone else has set the parameters for you and said "This is what God wants you to do or the concequenses are death/damnation" The person who has set these parameters is a self appointed leader. Lead his brothers and sisters out of slavery after convincing Pharoh that his God was responsible for the ten plagues that befell the land. (Science has shown that these plagues where a natural phenomonem, one causing the next.) He went off into the desert alone (no witnesses) and said God spoke to him and gave him a set of rules to live by (this took forty years) and ever since man has been trying to reconcile his beliefs of just who God is and why bad things happen to good, God loving people. Its clear that "most" people are afraid to die because "most" are unsure of what awaits them on the other side. The belief that "this is the only life you get so do it right" has never been seriously challenged. We haven't found a way to understand the alfa of creation yet except to make the creator just like us.

Following, or being obedient, is the alternative to rebellion. Your post indicates that you choose rebellion over obedience to the One who gives "you life, breath and all things." (Acts 17:25)

[Captain Chaos]

Following, or being obedient, is the alternative to rebellion. Your post indicates that you choose rebellion over obedience to the One who gives "you life, breath and all things." (Acts 17:25)

His post does not indicate that.

This is a common Christian misconception. You are basically accusing him of believing in the Bible-based world view, and choosing to reject it. This is simply not the case.

You see, some people do not believe in Biblical inerrancy. Lack of belief is not the same as rejection.

For example, I do not believe in Biblical inerrancy. I believe in a god of love, not a god of torture. I am not in rebellion against my concept of God.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: Captain Chaos His post does not indicate that. This is a common Christian misconception. You are basically accusing him of believing in the Bible-based world view, and choosing to reject it. This is simply not the case. You see, some people do not believe in Biblical inerrancy. Lack of belief is not the same as rejection. For example, I do not believe in Biblical inerrancy. I believe in a god of love, not a god of torture. I am not in rebellion against my concept of God.

Do you believe the first assertion of the Christian bible? It reads, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth.

If you do, as I do, then for the God who created all things known and unknown in the universe, just how difficult would it be for him to ensure that the Bible be maintained in a manner he sees fit?

If one does not use the Bible as the basis in one's belief in the God of the Bible, then what does one use? I'm curious.

[Captain Chaos]

Do you believe the first assertion of the Christian bible? It reads, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth.

I believe that our reality is created. I believe the evidence and reasoning supports this. I am not sure if that counts as a "yes" for you or not.

If you do, as I do, then for the God who created all things known and unknown in the universe, just how difficult would it be for him to ensure that the Bible be maintained in a manner he sees fit?

I do not know how difficult or easy such a task would be for God. Men have written lots of books they claimed to be divinely inspired in some fashion or other. Even if it would be very easy for God to have maintained any particular book, that does not mean that God did maintain that book.

If one does not use the Bible as the basis in one's belief in the God of the Bible, then what does one use? I'm curious.

First of all, there is a major lack of non-circular evidence to support the idea of Biblical inerrancy. Secondly, it it perfectly OK to lack belief. If you don't know, or don't have any idea, then simply admit that you do not know.

As for my beliefs, they come from many different sources. There is, in my opinion, good evidence to show that near death experiences (NDEs) involve a process that transcends the brain. There is also good evidence to show that near death experiences are significantly colored by a persons preconceptions. However, if you wade through enough of them, a logical picture starts to emerge.

If you are interested in NDEs, I would suggest starting with www.iands.org.

Good luck

[Critter]

Because God gave us free will. The suffering in the world and the pain that human beings cause their fellow human beings stems purely from the choices they themselves chose to make. Sometimes it's a simple cause-and-effect, oftentimes the results snowball into a greater, more complicated cause-and-effect.

Think of it this way, what would happen if God suddenly decided to step in, and someone was about to, say, kill another person, then all of a sudden this giant hand comes down from the sky, grabs the would-be murderer by the ear, and a voice boomed down, "No, no NO!"