The never-ending challenge of life.

[Osborn F Enready]

I would like to reduce the entire struggle of life to one root idea.

The idea is quite simple, and I would ask you all to attempt to see the world FROM this perspective for just a moment.

The idea is that all people, from birth to death, struggle with one singular issue. That issue is control of your own life, whether in America or China, Chile or Ukraine. Regardless of your geographical location, nation or creed, religious or not.

As a child you struggle against nature, and learn and adapt to become understood, and treated as an equal by your "peers". Your struggle is one of growth and education, nourishment and care. This is a mainly physical challenge of nature, as well as a mental challenge imposed by society. Right is often perceived as acceptance or ego-stroking, wrong is often perceived as isolation, scolding, abuse, correction or explanation, sometimes marginalization.

As a teen, you take what you have built upon as a child and you take hold of what you have learned by example and trial and error, and you attempt to understand what you perceive as "the big picture", and where you "seek" to fit into it. You breech the notion of government, the concept of society, the ideas of individualism and self responsibility for your actions. The struggle is to become equal, or VIEWED as equal, as those around you labeled adults. This is a struggle imposed by society, governments of society, culture, nationalism, religion, and the individuals perception of all of the above. This is mainly a mental challenge, though there is an underlying, inculcated idea of "physical norm" as opposed to physical health. Through this entire struggle however, you are keenly awakened to the idea that not all people use ego-stroking, or marginalization for their perceived designed purposes, and you learn of manipulation through feelings, acceptance, pride and or the deprivation of them by your perceived peers.

As an adult, you are charged with "obeying the law" and "conforming to society". The notion of individualism falls off the radar, if it exceeds the confines of the box prior-society has built and cared for. You struggle for control of your life between employers, landlords, Tax Collectors and Businessmen, while dealing with mental pressures of family, friends, aquaintances and neighbors. Your life seems to be reduced to survival of the fittest, with the guise of civility because you may wear a suit and tie, and not know or need the education of fisticuffs. Never the less, you are pitted man against man, for food, shelter, defense and beliefs. This struggle often leads to a desire for power, to ease ones own suffering, or perceived suffering, at the expense of others. That is in America, England, France and many other nations, however, in some nations and places within nations, there are still people who are forced to fight for surivival, food, existence or any form of liberty. They eat, wear and take shelter in what they can find, fight when they must, and simply seek to live in peace as individuals. Their battles, all the same, but by different play-books and with different means. All only seek to live and die by their own choice, beliefs and ideals, and to live as they see fit. All hold dear one thing, and that is their life, and the lives of the ones they love and care for, all else comes second to these things.

So to me, from this perspective, it seems as though the entire meaning of life, or value of life can be summed up in the answer to one question.

The question: Who can JUSTLY take responsibility for you life, your actions, your labor and effort, your existence?

If it is not thyself, there can be no inner peace, let alone outer peace, since we as individuals are limited by nature to limit our control to the individual, without the use of force. It is this use of force, that is destroying mankind, in our race to be the rulers of other men in the name of nationalism, idealism, and or religion.

So then, is not the best answer to limit the use of force to individuals, and remove it from the auspice of nations, religion and special intrest groups? Should it not be the duty of all men to dismantle orgnanized aggression, in the quest of limitation of force to the instance of individuals, in the goal of levelling the force that can be used against any individual?

Thoughts?

[Athena]

Hum, throughout history people have attempted to limit their power to small, managable groups, such as the individual Celtic tribes, native American tribes, Greek city/states, and repeatedly larger organizations of power have taken out the smaller organizations.

Today, only a united world can stand against the major powers such as the US and what China will soon be. There are organizations that unite countries, such as OPEC and the United Nations and NATO. The world could unite against the US, and this more likely if the value of the dollar falls. If the world began trading oil in Euro's instead of dollars, the value of the dollar would collapse, so it is pretty important the US prevents this. One way to do this is demonstrate massive military might and control.

I don't think it would be a good idea right now, to limit the use of force to individuals. The US would loose its position in global competition. However, we could unite behind the UN and world court, and the idea of global rule by reason. But than we have to improve the checks and balances of such a global system.

[Technosoul]

The alternative is don't fall into that trap and struggle, free the mind and "go with the flow".

Yes, it is not mandatory to struggle and life can be simple and easy going only you learn the right attitudes of that kind of existance, like a tree bending in the winds, like water flowing around a rock instead of trying to move it "out of the way". You just harmonize your motions to be in tune with they rest of the music happening, and "ride the wave" so that the "force is with you".

[tinybear]

Gee, all this is very profound. The way I see it is life is all about being happy for as long as possible. Then you die. End of story.

[dreamer]

I just want to carry on growing my vegetables, I like my crop off allsorts.
dreamer

[5010]

I agree that self control is a big part of meaning. I think we obtain meaning through relationships into and out of self.

When I ask "what does life mean to me?", the answer lies in what I am made of. It is about the relationship between self and the components of self. We nurture this by caring for our components: health, knowledge, wisdom, etc. Recognizing that self is based not merely on physical components but also past experiences, we nurture our future selves by choosing experiences that make up who we become.

Then I ask "what does my life mean?", and the answer lies in what I am part of. It is about the relationship between self and a collective self. We nurture this by caring for our organizations: family, fraternity, society, ecology, etc.

[nm420]

It certainly sounds nice, but how do you prevent individuals from willingly coopting into larger groups, and using their combined individual force to enforce a set of common goals? This state of "individualized force" sounds like it could theoretically exist, but as soon as one group forms to coerce others, another group must be formed to counteract the initial group, and so forth and so on, with the entire thing snowballing into something that we have today. Truly, it sounds like a near-perfect state of being, yet people naturally fall into groups and, either intentionally or unwittingly, add their God-given right of self-determinacy and will to the group, allowing the group to subsume anything that crosses its path.

To be sure, I am not advocating the abolition of all groups, such a thing would be absurd and regressive. However, there does need to be a careful balance for the needs of the group and the needs of the individual, a balance which is nonexistent in this modern world. Indeed, I don't even know that an equilibrium could exist (I like to believe it's possible, yet I've yet to see convincing evidence that it is). The problem is that human nature tends toward a hierarchical group structure. While this is not inherently bad, add to this that human nature also tends toward self-driven motives (which is also not inherently bad), and the proneness to abuse of the group by certain individuals is staggering. These components of human nature do not necessarily need to be erased, but something needs to be added before we can progress beyond civilized barbarism. It is not easy to exactly describe this missing component, yet a thrust in its general direction is the need for an educational system that teaches the crucial balance between inidivualism and groupthink and also imparts the utter importance of this balance. It seems that if people could be shown that there is a better way to live, and to be shown the key aspects of such living, they would naturally drift to such a state. I could be wrong; perhaps people can't be happy without misery (I can comiserate with such a sentiment), in which case we might as well say fuckitall and continue living the way we are. But not much point in such fatalism unless we know for sure such is the state of things, which we never can.

[Rive]

the only blame for anything that happens to you lies within yourself

if you do not have the strength to be who or what you want to be, its nobody's fault but yours. Everyone goes through life, and its difficult. There is no fate, there is no karma, only the here and now. You have to learn to live for yourself, because there is no one to help you, no one to stick up for you. In life you are alone, and your desicions are your own. Not the product of society.

(oh, and most of what you said was chillingly true, for me at least)

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: I don't think it would be a good idea right now, to limit the use of force to individuals. The US would loose its position in global competition. However, we could unite behind the UN and world court, and the idea of global rule by reason. But than we have to improve the checks and balances of such a global system

.

I say:
I don't think anything can happen until "individual rights" are recognized the same around the globe.

They can only be equalized up or down, and currently they are trending DOWN. One of my points was that if all nations people could see the beauty, and value of individual rights in ALL THINGS, governments couldn't exist as they do now.

Technosoul said: Yes, it is not mandatory to struggle and life can be simple and easy going only you learn the right attitudes of that kind of existance, like a tree bending in the winds, like water flowing around a rock instead of trying to move it "out of the way". You just harmonize your motions to be in tune with they rest of the music happening, and "ride the wave" so that the "force is with you".

I say:
There are some winds that trees don't bend through, they break. There is some water that is forced to dissipate and aireate as it moves around the rock, therefore the water is FORCED to change to deal with the rock.

If nothing in life is worth fighting for, why do so many consider it valuable?

I choose to live free, or make many that seek to oppress me die before I do, in the fight. I choose first to live, and only choose to fight if others try to prevent that by use of force.

For example. The water that "flowed around the rock" was only part of what actually hit and aireated against the rock. It seems to me you are only seeing part of the picture, since you only notice the flowing water, and ignore the turbulent white-water.

Complying with injustice does not fit into my goals in life.

I would recommend Sun Tzu's Art of War.

NM420 said: The problem is that human nature tends toward a hierarchical group structure.

I say:
I agree, and I think that changing that would be the next progression in human evolution, but this means actually LOOKING AND SEEING the roots of the problems of the past, instead of just simply reliving the past in cycles, as we have done for years and years.

I think the next human evolutionary step is to unilaterally, globally recognize the individual and individual rights to liberty as the only way progression can be made instead of continuing the cycle of (nation building, growing, ruling, revolting, fragmentation) over and over again.

I think the brain has already pre-determined our near perfect "collective size" by the limits we have on recall ability of faces, names and details of people. This could be the size of the "human pack" as some animals are also pack animals. Perhaps nature has limited the size of our collective ability in this way, though our cultures have ignored the warnings given by the resulting "foul play" that always results when collectives get bigger in agenda than core goals will support.

I think our biggest problem as humans, is we don't keep our collectives small enough, which is something the United States ALMOST did successfully. In our early stages of history, individual liberty was at its pinnacle, and laws favored the individual up until the mid 1800's. In the mid 1800's corporate pandering and special intrests started ruling the "parties" via money, favors and an "agenda" to empower the elites mainly off the backs of the working peasants. The New Deal gave lip service to all these "wrongs" being done by the corporate infrastructure, but only worsened it by dressing up legislation with pretty sounding fluff when at the core all it did was further remove the rights from the individuals, further empowering the government, and their corporate sponsors.

So, perhaps what I am getting at is the root idea that is not really an "idea" anymore, as much as history, which is the core history of the American Revolution against England. No taxation without representation. We have allowed our groups, or collectives, to become to large to effectively represent ANYTHING but a watered down muddy mixture of status quo, instead of a diverse, multi-partied, rich and vibrant variety of finite core ideals.

The core is getting watered down, and all that is left is the slurry run-off because the core is gone. Meanwhile all the representatives are rich on the peoples money, and the people still un-represented.

Are we on the same page? I think so....

[Mr. Jaggers]

“Whatever attitude to human existence you fashion for yourself, know that it is valid only if it be the shadow of an attitude to Nature. A human life, so often likened to a spectacle upon a stage, is more justly a ritual. The ancient values of dignity, beauty, and poetry which sustain it are of Nature’s inspiration; they are born of the mystery and beauty of the world. Do no dishonour to the earth lest you dishonour the spirit of man. Hold your hands out over the earth as over a flame. To all who love her, who open to her the doors of their veins, she gives of her strength, sustaining them with her own measureless tremor of dark life. Touch the earth, love the earth, honour the earth, her plains, her valleys, her hills, and her seas; rest your spirit in her solitary places. For the gifts of life are the earth’s and they are given to all, and they are the songs of birds at daybreak, Orion and the Bear, and the dawn seen over the ocean from the beach.”

- Henry Beston, The Outermost House (1928)

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Athena said: I don't think it would be a good idea right now, to limit the use of force to individuals. The US would loose its position in global competition. However, we could unite behind the UN and world court, and the idea of global rule by reason. But than we have to improve the checks and balances of such a global system . I say: I don't think anything can happen until "individual rights" are recognized the same around the globe. They can only be equalized up or down, and currently they are trending DOWN. One of my points was that if all nations people could see the beauty, and value of individual rights in ALL THINGS, governments couldn't exist as they do now. Technosoul said: Yes, it is not mandatory to struggle and life can be simple and easy going only you learn the right attitudes of that kind of existance, like a tree bending in the winds, like water flowing around a rock instead of trying to move it "out of the way". You just harmonize your motions to be in tune with they rest of the music happening, and "ride the wave" so that the "force is with you". I say: There are some winds that trees don't bend through, they break. There is some water that is forced to dissipate and aireate as it moves around the rock, therefore the water is FORCED to change to deal with the rock. If nothing in life is worth fighting for, why do so many consider it valuable? I choose to live free, or make many that seek to oppress me die before I do, in the fight. I choose first to live, and only choose to fight if others try to prevent that by use of force. For example. The water that "flowed around the rock" was only part of what actually hit and aireated against the rock. It seems to me you are only seeing part of the picture, since you only notice the flowing water, and ignore the turbulent white-water. Complying with injustice does not fit into my goals in life. I would recommend Sun Tzu's Art of War. NM420 said: The problem is that human nature tends toward a hierarchical group structure. I say: I agree, and I think that changing that would be the next progression in human evolution, but this means actually LOOKING AND SEEING the roots of the problems of the past, instead of just simply reliving the past in cycles, as we have done for years and years. I think the next human evolutionary step is to unilaterally, globally recognize the individual and individual rights to liberty as the only way progression can be made instead of continuing the cycle of (nation building, growing, ruling, revolting, fragmentation) over and over again. I think the brain has already pre-determined our near perfect "collective size" by the limits we have on recall ability of faces, names and details of people. This could be the size of the "human pack" as some animals are also pack animals. Perhaps nature has limited the size of our collective ability in this way, though our cultures have ignored the warnings given by the resulting "foul play" that always results when collectives get bigger in agenda than core goals will support. I think our biggest problem as humans, is we don't keep our collectives small enough, which is something the United States ALMOST did successfully. In our early stages of history, individual liberty was at its pinnacle, and laws favored the individual up until the mid 1800's. In the mid 1800's corporate pandering and special intrests started ruling the "parties" via money, favors and an "agenda" to empower the elites mainly off the backs of the working peasants. The New Deal gave lip service to all these "wrongs" being done by the corporate infrastructure, but only worsened it by dressing up legislation with pretty sounding fluff when at the core all it did was further remove the rights from the individuals, further empowering the government, and their corporate sponsors. So, perhaps what I am getting at is the root idea that is not really an "idea" anymore, as much as history, which is the core history of the American Revolution against England. No taxation without representation. We have allowed our groups, or collectives, to become to large to effectively represent ANYTHING but a watered down muddy mixture of status quo, instead of a diverse, multi-partied, rich and vibrant variety of finite core ideals. The core is getting watered down, and all that is left is the slurry run-off because the core is gone. Meanwhile all the representatives are rich on the peoples money, and the people still un-represented. Are we on the same page? I think so....

War is not really an art but rather, a form of over-reacting. Excluding defence which is a right we each have in this world. The concept of "art war" is to use the other person's force to your best advantage. If they swing with a momentum then you use that momentum to put them down. Etc.
(I read a few books along my journey). But mostly war is about having knowledge in advance that can be employed in an intelligent manner to subdue the enemy or to counter-act an attack with knowledgable skills.

So what if water should become aireated when stopped by large rock? The water did not really vanish and become nothing, it becomes a kind of mist that can rise into the air and then it can form as a cloud with other droplets and then it rains down and continues it's journey and purposes.

So what if the a old tree is knocked down by a very powerful wind? That was because it was no longer able to "bend" with the winds like it's younger counterparts. Or because some human did not plant it firmly enough in the first place. But the trees that DO bend with the winds remain and survive the ordeal. Those that do not continue with "the flow" as they merge with the soil as food for the next generation of plants that will grow out of it's remains. And so it's purpose and service continues on and on. Are you suggesting that trees should "put up a fight" and struggle to ward off the effects of nature's wrath? Why? when they are doing just fine the way things are... now.

And in the real art of war you do not fight people in the normal sense - by using a shotgun or fist, you learn about the system and then use it's weaknesses and it's laws to your own advantage.
It is not all that difficult.

[Technosoul]

Now I would agree that man's struggle is about gaining control over one's life, especially relative to the fantasy world of the Ego. (pride). But what kind of life would you end up having if you must constantly struggle and have conflicts with the world around you? A sorry one a best.

Now sometimes it is also natural and normal to struggle to maintain existance, the seed of the tree must struggle to push it's way to the surface of the earth before it can branch out as a tree. Such a struggle is designed to make the tree stronger, like if you struggle to lift weights you will become stronger because of that effort. And so any struggle that makes you stronger or healther would be a good thing and not something to curse. Struggle is the key to evolution relative to small degrees of improvments. And so part of "going with the flow of life" is getting "in the spirit" of the struggle, to overcome the odds so that you can move up a notch relative to personal ability and health.

The last suggestion Jesus gave for humanity was this attitude .... "Father, I command my spirit into your hands". Which he said as an example to be followed, while on the cross. In religious circles this is known as "letting go, and letting God" (be in charge of our life and destiny). It means to turn things over to the "Supervisory Spirit" within - and while waiting for the winds to fill the sails, you just drift along with the flow of the water. And by God we should percieve that this would be the over-all purpose of Nature and it's continued existance and balance, rather then just a ego problem with rewards and punishments.

Free your mind and your ass will follow. Simple.

[Jack]

The never-ending challenge of life.

Uhhh, not exactly. In one of those rare moments where I find myself agreeing with Tiny Bear's sentence...I mean post..., it does end, Osborn. Life is a challenge for most everyone. But at some point absolutely everyone will succumb to the challenge. No one gets out of here alive.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

True, Isherwood. But I can simplify the statement of "struggle over control over your own life" to just simply control. Or Cuntrol. Maybe its all about power. Maybe power=happiness. Maybe happiness=fullfilment.

But things tend to go into a hierarchy because of ability. The weak usually follow the strong.

[Kuldeep]

The never-ending challenge of life!

The never-ending challenge of life is to control desire. Desire is the root cause of all pleasures and sorrows. Once the desire is fulfilled you are pleased while; it is not fulfilled sadness is obvious.
At any stage of life desire is the culprit. Let us start with the childhood what is desired by a child, is nothing but parental love, proper food, few toys and some chocolates. Desires change with the age. If toys and chocolates are offered to a late teenaged / early twenties person, his/her remark would be that provider is kidding. The same items, which were very dear in childhood, have become of little importance with the growth in age. Now the attraction would be towards good-looking dress, opposite sex and other type of comforts. Entering into thirties and forties, the desires would change to property building, family welfare, rise of status and attainment of fame etc. Finally, turning old the desires won’t end; it would shift to welfare of various children and grand children. Of course, the desire to have upright health would also be troubling him the most.

In the whole process of one's life, one develops immense love for his body than anybody/anything else and to extent mistakenly feels body as the self. So the ultimate desire is developed to live forever. But then nature has its own laws, aging, wear and tear of cells, organs etc. makes the body unable to prolong infinitely. The running system of the body seize to function at some time, which we call death.

The story does not end as felt by Tiny Bear, but desire to live and love of body remains with the self in the meta-physical mind. Nature as is not cruel provides another body to the self + meta-physical mind in the form of reincarnation. But this process is some sort of head injury with total memory loss of the past, except the desire to live and live and live or it can also be said as desire to exist.

I WOULD REPEAT: THE DESIRE TO ERASE THE DESIRE IS THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE OF LIFE. BUT THAT ITSELF IS A DESIRE ONLY.
SO TO CONCLUDE, CONTROL OF DESIRE IS REAL NEVER ENDING CHALLENGE OF LIFE! :eek:

[Kuldeep]

The never-ending challenge of life.

Another thing, till we can some how, even erase the desire to remove the desire which seems a perfect impossibility, I would like to suggest the next possible "The never-ending challenge of life". And that is, to remain happy even when one does not achieve the expected result of his efforts. Even this is not so simple, but one can try!!! :)

A thought for try!!!