Why aren't Christians able to debate their own religion?

[orgaelin]

Hello Vern.

We are a feisty one aren't we? Quick to judge without first being yourself beyond judgement, which, alledgedly, only your god is.

Quote by: Saint Vern Quote by: Isherwood Here's a clue for you; there is no god. I am not a theist, a racist or a sexist. I do not accept the reality of god(s), the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot or the Easter Bunny. Actually you do, as you are a materialist/humanist who worships fallen humanity.

Hmmm... actually he does what? Worship Bigfoot? I assure you he doesn't. And I can assure you that he does not worship humanity, "fallen" or otherwise. He has no "reverant love and devotion" (as per dictionary def.) for mankind (...well, maybe men!...) and as such you are wrong. You said he worships Humanity. The facts don't appear to back you up.

You seem to talk a lot about truth, which for a man of supposed faith seems a little silly. Faith does not get proven, or else it wouldn't BE faith, it would just be observation. I don't have faith that the sky appears blue, I just look out the window and observe it to be so.

But if you prefer to discuss proof then let's discuss your "proofs". You said...

what I pointed out is that the existence of Messiah Jesus living on earth in a human body is proven by non-believer accounts of the history of that time

You must realise this is only your opinion, inasmuch as it differs from many authoritative scholars of religious history who in fact consider that it is the very lack of such "non-believer accounts" which 'prove' he did not exist, either as the Messiah or even a lowly historical figure of any sort.

Do you have any references whereby the rest of us can read these non-believer accounts?

You also said...

the many scientific truths in the Bible--present far in advance of their availability to mere "science"--does confirm and prove that the Word of God is just that: inspired by the Creator.

Which scientific truths are you refering to exactly? I am not aware of any science within the bible that is not presently available to mainstream academic science. And as such I don't see how that "proves" that the word of God is "Just that: inspired by the Creator". That doesn't even make sense -- the word of God is inspired by the Creator? He inspires himself?

Also, perhaps I'm over-analysing, but your unnecessary use of the word "mere" in reference to science suggests that you have issues in the form of an irrational dislike of science. You can have faith and still respect science for what it is. You do not. You are too biased and locked into only one side of the playing field. Broaden your horizons and God will respect you all the more for it.

Sorry to burst your self-righteous and oh-so-not-humble-like-Jesus-would-have-preferred-you-to-be bubble, but someone had to take you down a peg, and I felt I was the man for the job. Mellow out. Don't spit so much when you post. People will then take you more seriously -- you're certainly not doing a good job of spreading the "Good News" of God's Word so far, are you? At least, I don't see many converts heading your way...

~ Org.

[RickSp]

Vern has pulled this nonsense on another thread - claiming that there is in fact secular historical evidence for Jesus. He trots out all the typical hearsay sources from well after the death of the alleged Jesus, which of course do nothing to prove his silly claims. After that he fell back on insults, which seems to be his ongoing M.O.

[Jack]

The fact of the matter is though Messiah Jesus is proven historically and beyond any serious doubt in that regard

I invite you to quote a message in which I supposedly said anything at all about historians affirming the "divinity" of the Messiah.

Messiah: A Hebrew word meaning "anointed" or "chosen one." The Greek word used in the New Testament for "annointed" is Christ. In the Old Testament, God promised to send a special person called the Messiah. This new king would save God's people. The New Testament shows us that Jesus is the Messiah. He is God's chosen one to save his people.

If you meant to just refer to Jesus as a man (who's existence is far from certain as well) then you should have simply said "Jesus".

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: Isherwood Messiah: A Hebrew word meaning "anointed" or "chosen one." The Greek word used in the New Testament for "annointed" is Christ. In the Old Testament, God promised to send a special person called the Messiah. This new king would save God's people. The New Testament shows us that Jesus is the Messiah. He is God's chosen one to save his people. If you meant to just refer to Jesus as a man (who's existence is far from certain as well) then you should have simply said "Jesus".

Good try but you still have not made the connection between my properly pointing out who Messiah IS and the fact--also pointed out by me--that His existence, in whatever form any one of them chooses to accept, has been documented by historians. Here is a hint: There is no such connection, because the fact that I know He is God does not either imply that others concede this or undo the facts of His existence that those people accept.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: RickSp Vern has pulled this nonsense on another thread - claiming that there is in fact secular historical evidence for Jesus. He trots out all the typical hearsay sources from well after the death of the alleged Jesus, which of course do nothing to prove his silly claims. After that he fell back on insults, which seems to be his ongoing M.O.

You poor baby. You keep taking beatings from me in every subject where you try to throw your weight around (Bad news, buddy: Having posted 50zillion messages--or as many as they are--does not give you a legitimate expectation of having your arse smooched.), and this must be frustrating. But the fact that Messiah Jesus's existence on earth is proven by historians who had no interest in saying so means your point is a loser, as is every other one you try to make.

Still pals?

:-)

[Jack]

But the fact that Messiah Jesus's existence on earth is proven by historians who had no interest in saying so means your point is a loser, as is every other one you try to make.

Instead of hoping that we'll believe this foolishness if you repeat it often enough, how about you provide the references you've been asked to provide.

[Jack]

I know He is God does not either imply that others concede this or undo the facts of His existence that those people accept.

Yeah, the crazy guy who says his best friend is a large fuzzy rabbit says the same thing. I guess what you say is true of all who have imaginary friends.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: Isherwood Instead of hoping that we'll believe this foolishness if you repeat it often enough, how about you provide the references you've been asked to provide.

Already did. Where were you yesterday?

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: Isherwood Yeah, the crazy guy who says his best friend is a large fuzzy rabbit says the same thing. I guess what you say is true of all who have imaginary friends.

Has his large fuzzy rabbit been documented by historians who are by their nature hostile to bunnies?

[Jack]

Just like you, he claims they have but offers no references.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: Isherwood Just like you, he claims they have but offers no references.

Delaying the inevitable by claiming that I have not said what I have said does not advance your position. It might make you a little more comfy for the time being, but meanwhile you sound less than intellectually curious. Now how about you take a look?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Saint Vern You poor baby. You keep taking beatings from me in every subject where you try to throw your weight around (Bad news, buddy: Having posted 50zillion messages--or as many as they are--does not give you a legitimate expectation of having your arse smooched.), and this must be frustrating. But the fact that Messiah Jesus's existence on earth is proven by historians who had no interest in saying so means your point is a loser, as is every other one you try to make.

Vern all you manage to do is insult while adding no other content whatsoever. You keep repeating the same crap as if repetition adds value. It doesn't. So far you have demonstrated both arrogance and ignorance, a poor combination, to be sure.

And you have yet to offer any evidence that your imaginary friend was documented by a historian of his day. The best you can do is hearsay from Josephus and his like. This is the Josephus who writes more about Hercules than Haysus.

But you do remain amusing. Every village needs one and you are filling the role nicely.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: RickSp Vern all you manage to do is insult while adding no other content whatsoever. You keep repeating the same crap as if repetition adds value. It doesn't. So far you have demonstrated both arrogance and ignorance, a poor combination, to be sure. And you have yet to offer any evidence that your imaginary friend was documented by a historian of his day. The best you can do is hearsay from Josephus and his like. This is the Josephus who writes more about Hercules than. But you do remain amusing. Every village needs one and you are filling the role nicely.

First of all learn a little about how to write the language. Just my request for the night.

What peeves you is that someone (else) has come along who is in the habit of embarrassing your degenerate agenda, and this is unacceptable to your left-of-normal mindset that finds it normal to silence and/or shout down anyone who disagrees. Hey...whatever it takes, but you cannot stop me that way. Josephus and the others I mentioned do indeed prove that Messiah Yeshua existed, and there are many others who did the same. Your "Hercules" fixation is your affair, but then you are for gay "marriage". Whatever you have to do for satisfaction, buddy.

8-|

[RickSp]

Vern, you keep repeating the same nonsense as if saying it one more time will make it true. And then you repeatedly insult me, I suppose to make you feel less inadequate. And now you even insult my prose, which I will match against your mangling of the language any day. You move from amusing to boring, which seems to be the natural trajectory of a fool.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: RickSp Vern all you manage to do is insult while adding no other content whatsoever. You keep repeating the same crap as if repetition adds value.

Quote by: RickSp Vern, you keep repeating the same nonsense as if saying it one more time will make it true.

Sorta sad how you have impaled yourself on your own spear. Sad but truly funny. Anyhow the fact that you are Saint Vern-obsessed is flattering. Thanks.

:-)

[RickSp]

Quote by: Saint Vern Sorta sad how you have impaled yourself on your own spear. Sad but truly funny. Anyhow the fact that you are Saint Vern-obsessed is flattering. Thanks. :-)

Why would anyone be obsessed by an arrogant fool? I might be criticised for wasting my time responding to the same, but then again it is a slow evening. And you do remind me of past Zealots.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: RickSp Why would anyone be obsessed by an arrogant fool? I might be criticised for wasting my time responding to the same, but then again it is a slow evening. And you do remind me of past Zealots.

I did not call you self-obsessed. You lose again.

[phoenix_fire]

Saint Seiya, your style of argument is reminiscent of an elementary school child. I mean, this is the second thread in a row where you just seem to be using the "I know you are but what am I?" format. How old are you again?

[Matt W]

Enough. Stop baiting each other and get back on topic.

Do not respond to me within this thread. PM myself or Sean for details.

[twoanickel]

Quote by: RickSp Vern, you keep repeating the same nonsense as if saying it one more time will make it true. And then you repeatedly insult me, I suppose to make you feel less inadequate. And now you even insult my prose, which I will match against your mangling of the language any day. You move from amusing to boring, which seems to be the natural trajectory of a fool.

RickSp--how about checking out what Britannica says in regard to the existence of Christ and report back to us on it? At one time, they had a large section alloted to Him. Maybe He is no longer politically correct. You might get some idea about what kind of influence the anti-Christ's have by seeing what they are saying now.