Destiny???

[Kuldeep]

By the way destiny is the final goal of any action done in one's life. People say destiny is fixed. Now the questions arise:

Are effort full actions leading us to pre-fixed destiny???

Or, destiny make us to perform such actions that lead us to pre-fixed destiny???

Just a thought to think it over!!!!!!

[Zhavric]

Do you have any evidence that there is a pre-destined paradigm that we are all moving towards?

To me, destiny can only exist in the mind. It is an implied perspective. It is no different from looking at any event in the past and declaring, "See? That's how it was destined to turn out."...When in fact the event in question just happened to turn out that way.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Destiny only exists when one looks backwards, when choices have already been made. Even then, it's fictitious. If you didn't have destiny, you wouldn't have choice.

[Athena]

Evidence of predistiny comes from many sources. Myself, I like science, and we live on a finite planet. There is no way the world can continue as it is for much longer. Our populations are growing and we are running out of finite resources. Oil is on the minds of many people, but there are areas of the world where water and farming soil, are big issues. Historically mineral resources determined the distiny of nations, and unfortunately too many people want to deny this, as much as some want to deny a God.

More to kuldeep's question, I accept the uncertainity principle. That is we can know under the right conditions, particles will move, but we can not be certain which ones. I believe "destiny make us to perform such actions that lead us to pre-fixed destiny". I accept the principle of the Mayan Factor, that each phase of life evolves into the next phase and that is destined to happen. Those caught up in a period of time will perform such actions that are pre fixed by that time period.

However, the individual may for a variety of reasons, resist the flow of the moment. According to the Tarot system, we are in a period of fools, and this is a good time to resist the insanity. The insanity is unavoidable, but we can choose to enlighten ourselves and others, rather than blindly get caught up in the insanity. This isn't exactly resisting the flow of time, because supposely we will get through this and enter a new galatic cycle, where the consciousness of this New Age will be so different from this present consciousness, those of the future will not be able to relate to thow of the past. Some are moving us in this direction, while others are blindly acting out the foolishness of the time.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Athena Evidence of predistiny comes from many sources. Myself, I like science, and we live on a finite planet. There is no way the world can continue as it is for much longer. Our populations are growing and we are running out of finite resources. Oil is on the minds of many people, but there are areas of the world where water and farming soil, are big issues. Historically mineral resources determined the distiny of nations, and unfortunately too many people want to deny this, as much as some want to deny a God. More to kuldeep's question, I accept the uncertainity principle. That is we can know under the right conditions, particles will move, but we can not be certain which ones. I believe "destiny make us to perform such actions that lead us to pre-fixed destiny". I accept the principle of the Mayan Factor, that each phase of life evolves into the next phase and that is destined to happen. Those caught up in a period of time will perform such actions that are pre fixed by that time period. However, the individual may for a variety of reasons, resist the flow of the moment. According to the Tarot system, we are in a period of fools, and this is a good time to resist the insanity. The insanity is unavoidable, but we can choose to enlighten ourselves and others, rather than blindly get caught up in the insanity. This isn't exactly resisting the flow of time, because supposely we will get through this and enter a new galatic cycle, where the consciousness of this New Age will be so different from this present consciousness, those of the future will not be able to relate to thow of the past. Some are moving us in this direction, while others are blindly acting out the foolishness of the time.

Well you started off with a claim of "evidence" and I read what you wrote and found none. I only found that you prefer to think predestiny exists, even though we fully know that we can analyze and make decisions that alter any chances of "pre-" anything. How can there be a destiny if we have choices.

Who determines what everyone's destiny is? Are you a deist now? I mean, I can't prove your assertions wrong, but I can say that it's pointless to make such speculations seeing that we clearly determine our own destiny as free thinking humans; however, you seem to feel that a strange power is controlling us, like your own religion or something.

[Athena]

No, something strange isn't controlling us, but natural law. Hum, how to explain? I believe evolution is a fact of how life as we know it came to be. This includes the evolution of consciousness.

We have the reptilian brain, the instinctive brain, which evolves into the mammal brain, the awareness of others and the emotions that go with being social animals. At the mammaliam level conceptualization begins, and this can be demonstrated in chimpanezes.

The mammalian consciousness evolves into the more complex human consciousness. At first this is planetary awareness and we have a conscious a symbiotic relationship with the earth. This is an earth mother stage, and hoping, that by pleasing the Goddess she will bless us. It is pagan and evolves into logic that is more scientific, unless prevented from doing so by religion or a philosophy that prevents evolution of consciousness, such as the Chinese fear of change that held it in tradition until recently. This evolves again into...

The solar brain or mind of light. Quantum physics surely qualifies as mind of light. Curiously those held back may leap forward. That is, those who think wholistically such as in the east, may have an advantage as we progress into quantum physics, while the matericalistic, linear thinking west, may have the most difficulty with this level of consciousness.

From a Mayan perspective there are 13 Baktuns or phases as we evolve from earth consciousness to intergalatic consciousness.

1. Baktun of the Star Planting 3113-2718 B.C.
2. Baktun of the Pyramid 2718-2324 B.C.
3. Baktun of the Wheel 2324-1930 B.C.
4. Baktun of the Sacred Mountain 1930-1536 B.C.
5. Baktun of the House of Shang 1536-1141 B.C.
6. Baktun of the Imperial Seal 1141-747 B.C.
7. Baktun of the Mind Teachings 747- 353 B. C.
8. Baktun of the Anoited One 353 B.C. - A.D. 41
9. Baktun of the Lords of the Red and Black A.D. 41-435
10. Baktun of the Maya A.D. 435-830
11. Baktun of the the Holy Wars A.D. 830-1224
12. Baktun of the Hidden Seed A.D. 1224-1618
13. Baktun of the transformation of matter A.D. 1618-2012

The new gallatic cycle beginning 2012 and being galatic synchronization.

Thus, as we look over the map of the Galastic Synchronization Beam landscape, we see building up over 5,125 years the series of thirteen morphogenetic fields in their archtypical character, each subdivsion into twenty katun subcycles. Though the transitions between fields are not always marked by anything obviously momentous, we may nonetheless distinguish in each of the subfelids, an overall marked change of character. As indicated, these changes of character are due to the generally unconscious discarding of certain symbolic/cognitive features and the imprinting that affects and seals the overall memory- bearing quality of the new morphogenetic morphogenetic field. ..... Though, from a certain perspective, the human element is but the instrument of galactic purpose, this instrument is of necessity intelligent and purposeful. And if, at this stage in the harmonic calibrations of the Great cycle, we are at the point of climax and the painful shedding of much that we have developed to get where we are, the unconscious construction of our labors finally looms into view; the Light Body of Planet Earth- the rainent of Gaia, worn like a radiant garment from pole to magnetic pole.

Quoted from The Mayan Factor by Jose Arguelles

[Athena]

sources of last day predictions

Bible
Hopi and Mayan
Tarot
Great Pyramid of Gisa
I Ching
Astrology, we are leaving the Age of Pisces and entering the Age of Aquarius
Geology and population counts
Nostradamus, Edgar Cascey, and other psychics

Keeping in mind people exspected the end of the world during the time of Jesus, and I am not clear on why, but the volcanic explosion that covered Pompii convinced many the last days had come. I believe we are in the last days because of geology and population counts. We live on a finite planet and are realizing what that means. People with conflicting world views can no longer avoid each other, and I see little hope that they have gotten beyond war as a means for settling their differences, when they can not avoid each other. Unlike weapons of the past, nuclear weapons can destroy all life on earth. At the very least, a nuclear war would devastate civilization as we know it, but so would running out of oil without another energy source.

[Jack]

The end of the world will come in several million years when the sun begins to swell and boils away the atmosphere. The end of humanity is less predictable but no less certain.
What happens on any particular day of our lives just happens. I don't accept a personal destiny. That would imply a superior being that determined the future. "It's my destiny" is a hollow phrase that means nothing.

Thus, as we look over the map of the Galastic Synchronization Beam landscape, we see building up over 5,125 years the series of thirteen morphogenetic fields in their archtypical character, each subdivsion into twenty katun subcycles. Though the transitions between fields are not always marked by anything obviously momentous, we may nonetheless distinguish in each of the subfelids, an overall marked change of character. As indicated, these changes of character are due to the generally unconscious discarding of certain symbolic/cognitive features and the imprinting that affects and seals the overall memory- bearing quality of the new morphogenetic morphogenetic field. .....

What an amazing string of nonsense.

[SteveA]

Two views, which seem almost identical:

a) Everyone has a destiny they can't alter, but are unaware of.

or

b) There is no destiny and we all have uncertain futures.

Either way the future is uncertain.

Now it might be nice to know there's some "plan" to evreything but it seems to be only disempowering to believe you have no control over it. So, whether or not we all have predetermined destinies, it doesn't seem there's much of a drawback to assume you have control of at least some part of it.

Of course, if you happen to be someone who sees a fixed destiny in their life and knows what it was, then your perspective would be different but I doubt there are many (if any) people in this position.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Athena No, something strange isn't controlling us, but natural law. Hum, how to explain? I believe evolution is a fact of how life as we know it came to be. This includes the evolution of consciousness. We have the reptilian brain, the instinctive brain, which evolves into the mammal brain, the awareness of others and the emotions that go with being social animals. At the mammaliam level conceptualization begins, and this can be demonstrated in chimpanezes. The mammalian consciousness evolves into the more complex human consciousness. At first this is planetary awareness and we have a conscious a symbiotic relationship with the earth. This is an earth mother stage, and hoping, that by pleasing the Goddess she will bless us. It is pagan and evolves into logic that is more scientific, unless prevented from doing so by religion or a philosophy that prevents evolution of consciousness, such as the Chinese fear of change that held it in tradition until recently. This evolves again into... The solar brain or mind of light. Quantum physics surely qualifies as mind of light. Curiously those held back may leap forward. That is, those who think wholistically such as in the east, may have an advantage as we progress into quantum physics, while the matericalistic, linear thinking west, may have the most difficulty with this level of consciousness. From a Mayan perspective there are 13 Baktuns or phases as we evolve from earth consciousness to intergalatic consciousness. 1. Baktun of the Star Planting 3113-2718 B.C. 2. Baktun of the Pyramid 2718-2324 B.C. 3. Baktun of the Wheel 2324-1930 B.C. 4. Baktun of the Sacred Mountain 1930-1536 B.C. 5. Baktun of the House of Shang 1536-1141 B.C. 6. Baktun of the Imperial Seal 1141-747 B.C. 7. Baktun of the Mind Teachings 747- 353 B. C. 8. Baktun of the Anoited One 353 B.C. - A.D. 41 9. Baktun of the Lords of the Red and Black A.D. 41-435 10. Baktun of the Maya A.D. 435-830 11. Baktun of the the Holy Wars A.D. 830-1224 12. Baktun of the Hidden Seed A.D. 1224-1618 13. Baktun of the transformation of matter A.D. 1618-2012 The new gallatic cycle beginning 2012 and being galatic synchronization. Quoted from The Mayan Factor by Jose Arguelles

I think this is senseless banter and speculation on events that are impossible to speculate upon with any bit of reason. And how the hell do they know this anyways? just a random guess at our consciousness, like all the other ones in ancient, medieval, and even present beliefs and spiritual followings? What did the Mayans know about the mind that we don't? Come on Athena, this stuff is just silly. I don't even see a good connection between our evolving consciousness and destiny anyways, although I will agree with you that I think the brain evolves, thus affecting consciousness.

[Kuldeep]

Welcome friends!! Thanks a lot for providing some clue about my doubt in mind that:

Is it the destiny, which makes us perform various actions to arrive at it???

Or, our willful actions make the destiny reality and make us to arrive at it ???

Before reacting to individual views, I would like to put forth my own view about the doubt then we all can join the debating game!!!! :)

To my mind present situation in ones life or within group of persons, or in province, or state or country, or for that matter on earth or over the whole universe is Destiny !!!!! :(

Meaning vividly that whatever we arrive at in the form of present situation becomes naturally our destiny. Coming to the point of debate, I am with Athena. Everything is fixed or pre-destined and actions are compelling to get performed to arrive at the prefixed destiny. Now, Soccer says how it can be, or what is the proof that destiny compelled one to perform actions which lead to it. It is simple!!!! See uncertain destiny has become reality in form of present situation and series of actions were also performed to arrive at now known and certain destiny, as conceivable present. As regards the multiple choices hinted by him, I say before initiating any action our mind has set an arbitrary destiny depending upon our interest, facilities priorities and the like. In case everything went on smoothly, as per the plan of planner. It could be said that actions were performed in a planned manner so that destiny could be arrived at!!! I would interfere and say, after all it is destiny only, which was first fixed and then only started course of actions. Secondly, what then if destiny thought in the mind could not be achieved??? What happened to our choices??? In this case also whatever we arrive at in present situation (different than pre-fixed destiny in mind) was the real destiny, which made the wrong actions so not arriving at desired destiny!!! :confused: ?????

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Kuldeep Welcome friends!! Thanks a lot for providing some clue about my doubt in mind that: Is it the destiny, which makes us perform various actions to arrive at it??? Or, our willful actions make the destiny reality and make us to arrive at it ??? Before reacting to individual views, I would like to put forth my own view about the doubt then we all can join the debating game!!!! :) To my mind present situation in ones life or within group of persons, or in province, or state or country, or for that matter on earth or over the whole universe is Destiny !!!!! :( Meaning vividly that whatever we arrive at in the form of present situation becomes naturally our destiny. Coming to the point of debate, I am with Athena. Everything is fixed or pre-destined and actions are compelling to get performed to arrive at the prefixed destiny. Now, Soccer says how it can be, or what is the proof that destiny compelled one to perform actions which lead to it. It is simple!!!! See uncertain destiny has become reality in form of present situation and series of actions were also performed to arrive at now known and certain destiny, as conceivable present. As regards the multiple choices hinted by him, I say before initiating any action our mind has set an arbitrary destiny depending upon our interest, facilities priorities and the like. In case everything went on smoothly, as per the plan of planner. It could be said that actions were performed in a planned manner so that destiny could be arrived at!!! I would interfere and say, after all it is destiny only, which was first fixed and then only started course of actions. Secondly, what then if destiny thought in the mind could not be achieved??? What happened to our choices??? In this case also whatever we arrive at in present situation (different than pre-fixed destiny in mind) was the real destiny, which made the wrong actions so not arriving at desired destiny!!! :confused: ?????

You say frequently that destiny is what we arrived at, which makes sense, but then there'd be no sense in giving "destiny" a constructing definition. It's just the present and I agree with the present as it slides by.

However, you also talk about predestination and try to use your "proven" destiny, even though once you've gone beyond the present, you're term of destiny fails to apply. For example, it seems your only evidence is that we have a set destiny for ourselves, a slightly different approach to your usual ones. But this is inaccurate. If I plan to go to the all-star teams for a sport, then unknowingly break my leg, I had no choice in this "destiny." In fact, I would ask you to keep the "destiny" term in the future, where it's defintion belongs as a supernatural concept, and out of the present state of things as they pass by.

We make choices, we are set in environments unknown to us at times and therefore we cannot conceive the answer before the environment was shown to us. Because of this, we cannot have a planned destiny, but I rest my evidence that just like the rest of the universe, chaos ensues.

[Osborn F Enready]

Kuldeep said: Destiny???

I say:
We all have one, though it is in my opinion as pre-determined as a lottery. By the laws of nature.

Kuldeep said: By the way destiny is the final goal of any action done in one's life. People say destiny is fixed. Now the questions arise:

I say:
Only to those who ascribe to the idea of a "fixed" destiny, do questions arise.

Kuldeep said: Are effort full actions leading us to pre-fixed destiny???

I say:
Yes. I think we will be doomed by Mr. Murphy, from Murphys law fame, in our destiny as mankind. We will understand just enough to do something, once it is too late to do anything. I think the space station is a stab at a "fail-safe" idea of letting man survive his own stupidity, if only just to give one morsel of man the humility deserved for being part of a race that destroys not only itself, but an entire planet, and all that lives upon it, by providing a ring-side seat for mans last specimens preserved in space vaccum for perhaps another life form to stumble upon long after that capsule is devoid of life.

Kuldeep said: Or, destiny make us to perform such actions that lead us to pre-fixed destiny???

I say:
Now that is religion. Trying to get people to act a certain, un-natural way to be able to achieve some "un-provable, faith based" reward by a flowery after-life.

I think that is why Jefferson noted that many of the "morals" of the bible were well and good, but the rest of that hokus pokus crap was for fools who followed the "deceived", and or perverted scripture.

He sought to take the "moral lessons" without the dogmatic manipulation. He like I, thinks the bible says some good things. However, he like I also understands that those who foster belief so strong so as to willfully suffer in this life, or force OTHERs to suffer in this life because they have a staked
PERSONAL hold out in a "promise" of a flowery after-life, should be deemed dangerous and "dishonest" at best.

If God himself (if there is one) could not judge man, how could he condone or preach that MAN should judge man?

[nookiewookie]

First:
From dictionary.com (my emphasis):
Destiny:
1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control: “Marriage and hanging go by destiny” (Robert Burton).
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events

ok, so, to begin with, anyone who says that we are destined to do what we do yet we can still choose what to do is using the term "destiny" incorrectly. Pure determinism and free will are not compatible. If you are arguing for free will, then you cannot say that we are destined to do what we do.


Second:

SoccerfreakAB2 : "Who determines what everyone's destiny is? Are you a deist now? I mean, I can't prove your assertions wrong, but I can say that it's pointless to make such speculations seeing that we clearly determine our own destiny as free thinking humans; however, you seem to feel that a strange power is controlling us, like your own religion or something"

Destiny (or determinism) does not require a "who," but only a what. That what is your past, your present physical state, and your present environment. Forces from the past (physical), your present physical state (intelligence, mood, tendency to act a certain way, etc.), and your present physical surroundings (two apples being presented to you, a bank to rob) provide sufficient physical causal powers to make a person act as they do. This is why you don't need a "who." What is also interesting about this is that the "strange power" you felt was required for destiny (and that you were so skeptical about) now becomes this stranger power called the "free will" (Why do you choose to do something? does your choice have a cause? If not, then it is random and not free, so you posit your "fee will" as the cause. What causes your will to "will" as it does? If it has a cause, it is determined, not free. if it does not have a cause then it is random, and still not free.) We can go into that in more depth in another topic if you'd like.


Third:

Isherwood: "What happens on any particular day of our lives just happens. I don't accept a personal destiny. That would imply a superior being that determined the future. "It's my destiny" is a hollow phrase that means nothing."

Based on what I have said above, destiny does not imply a "superior being." Also, "destiny" is full of meaning (see the definitions). whether or not you apply it to your own life is another matter, and does not really affect the meaningfullness/meaninglessness of this particular term/concept.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: nookiewookie Destiny (or determinism) does not require a "who," but only a what. That what is your past, your present physical state, and your present environment. Forces from the past (physical), your present physical state (intelligence, mood, tendency to act a certain way, etc.), and your present physical surroundings (two apples being presented to you, a bank to rob) provide sufficient physical causal powers to make a person act as they do. This is why you don't need a "who." What is also interesting about this is that the "strange power" you felt was required for destiny (and that you were so skeptical about) now becomes this stranger power called the "free will" (Why do you choose to do something? does your choice have a cause? If not, then it is random and not free, so you posit your "fee will" as the cause. What causes your will to "will" as it does? If it has a cause, it is determined, not free. if it does not have a cause then it is random, and still not free.) We can go into that in more depth in another topic if you'd like.

Well for one, how can destiny exist if someone doesn't control it? There must be a who, or something/one in charge of the placement of destiny and the "right" order.

Even so, it's still garbage to actually think someone knows what's going to happen, like I don't have free will, a concept you touched on. You say what's the cause for our will to will the way it does? I say wtf? Free will is free will. I can buy a banana or an apple. Both will change future course events. Perhaps you were touching along the lines of the psychological history for the basis of our particular actions, such as a phobia for bananas that grew over time, or perhaps an associated learning between apples and getting smart that I read an the news, or maybe I saw one of my influences eating a banana. These things may affect my decision, but you must understand that those people had free will, too. Even the first lifeforms "had" free will, but they only needed to do particular actions to survive. We, on the other hand, have free time and we have already attained our safety, our food, our drinks, our shelter, etc. Free will is free will, no matter how far down the psychological or historical chain you go.

[nookiewookie]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Well for one, how can destiny exist if someone doesn't control it? There must be a who, or something/one in charge of the placement of destiny and the "right" order.

no, destiny can be a set future determined by the current state of the present and the states of the past. think of it like a causal chain. if A hits B, then B will hit C, and then C will hit D. So the fact that A hits B will mean that eventually C is destined to hit D.

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Even so, it's still garbage to actually think someone knows what's going to happen, like I don't have free will, a concept you touched on.

Since destiny can exist in a physically determined reality, no knowledge of the future is needed for it to be an applicable concept to our reality, only determining causal factors.

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 You say what's the cause for our will to will the way it does? I say wtf?

...this isn't much of a response, so I can't really respond much to it. But, like I said, if you want to discuss this further, we should make another thread.

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Free will is free will. I can buy a banana or an apple. Both will change future course events. Perhaps you were touching along the lines of the psychological history for the basis of our particular actions, such as a phobia for bananas that grew over time, or perhaps an associated learning between apples and getting smart that I read an the news, or maybe I saw one of my influences eating a banana. These things may affect my decision, but you must understand that those people had free will, too. Even the first lifeforms "had" free will, but they only needed to do particular actions to survive. We, on the other hand, have free time and we have already attained our safety, our food, our drinks, our shelter, etc. Free will is free will, no matter how far down the psychological or historical chain you go.

I was about to respond to this when I remembered what I just typed above. We should make a new thread for this debate so that we don't hijack this one.

[Jack]

destiny can be a set future determined by the current state of the present and the states of the past. think of it like a causal chain. if A hits B, then B will hit C, and then C will hit D. So the fact that A hits B will mean that eventually C is destined to hit D.

The Butterfly Effect. Since we have no way to experience those other realities where the same sequence has different results, we can only say that once our future becomes our present then our past, it was the future that resulted from past circumstances. But how can future events be "set"? How would we know?

[nookiewookie]

Quote by: Isherwood destiny can be a set future determined by the current state of the present and the states of the past. think of it like a causal chain. if A hits B, then B will hit C, and then C will hit D. So the fact that A hits B will mean that eventually C is destined to hit D. The Butterfly Effect. Since we have no way to experience those other realities where the same sequence has different results, we can only say that once our future becomes our present then our past, it was the future that resulted from past circumstances. But how can future events be "set"? How would we know?

I was giving an example of a reality to which destiny applied that did not require a knowing or acting being to implement it. The example used a deterministic reality. whether you believe this reality is deterministic or not is another matter.

[Jack]

To imply destiny implies determinism. The present is the culmination of all events that occurred prior to this moment. Any future we envision will in some way be a result of past events plus present events projected forward. We have no means to ascertain the future until it becomes the present, and only one version of all the possible futures becomes the present. So to suggest destiny is to consider real that which can only exist in the future...which isn't real yet.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: nookiewookie no, destiny can be a set future determined by the current state of the present and the states of the past. think of it like a causal chain. if A hits B, then B will hit C, and then C will hit D. So the fact that A hits B will mean that eventually C is destined to hit D..

If A, B, and C are in the past and D is the supposed future, how do we know what D is? What is the relationship between each letter other than their clear relation in the alphabet. Put on a time scale, and the example makes no sense.

Quote by: nookiewookie Since destiny can exist in a physically determined reality, no knowledge of the future is needed for it to be an applicable concept to our reality, only determining causal factors..

Physically determined? Who physically determines it? A cause is a cause when we KNOW there is an effect. For example, in 1968, we wouldn't have been absolutely sure that the invasion of Vietname would be a cause to the 1975 fall of Saigon. Even here, the A (past) and B (future) have no relation because one had not yet happened. Events in between may have changed if the time was altered.