The Kalam Cosmological Argument

[LetThereBe]

I'm sure most of you have already heard this numerous times, but I seek opinions.

1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
2. The universe has a beginning.
3. The universe has a cause.

Its a very simple argument. But is it valid?
I think there would be few who question #1. So that leaves a few questions: did the universe have a beginning, and what constitutes a cause? Can something cause itself, or must a cause be external?

Two those who would argue against number 2, I would like to know how the universe being infinitely old is possible if the laws of thermodynamics are valid.

[Son of Belial]

I'm sure most of you have already heard this numerous times, but I seek opinions.

1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
2. The universe has a beginning.
3. The universe has a cause.

Its a very simple argument. But is it valid?
I think there would be few who question #1. So that leaves a few questions: did the universe have a beginning, and what constitutes a cause? Can something cause itself, or must a cause be external?

Two those who would argue against number 2, I would like to know how the universe being infinitely old is possible if the laws of thermodynamics are valid.

I think the biggest problem is we can't think of any explanation that doesn't require something being prexistant.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

I'm sure most of you have already heard this numerous times, but I seek opinions.

1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
2. The universe has a beginning.
3. The universe has a cause.

Its a very simple argument. But is it valid?
I think there would be few who question #1. So that leaves a few questions: did the universe have a beginning, and what constitutes a cause? Can something cause itself, or must a cause be external?

Two those who would argue against number 2, I would like to know how the universe being infinitely old is possible if the laws of thermodynamics are valid.

Maybe that only makes valid the theory that the universe is eternal.

[LetThereBe]

But the idea behind the Kalam argument is that God never began to exist, while the universe did. The exact wording is important. Hence the question: do all agree that the universe began to exist?

[Jack]

1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause.

I think there would be few who question #1.

Like me. By cause, do you mean a reason to exist? I would then disagree. Existance does not imply a reason to exist.

But the idea behind the Kalam argument is that God never began to exist

Which supposes that there is a god. This makes it an argument of interest only to theists.

[LetThereBe]

Like me. By cause, do you mean a reason to exist? I would then disagree. Existance does not imply a reason to exist.

Which supposes that there is a god. This makes it an argument of interest only to theists.

A cause and a reason are different things. I am not trying to say the universe serves a purpose, just that it is, and that is because something made it is, if you know what I'm saying. Simply cause and effect. The universe is an effect, hence a cause.

Secondly, the primary purpose of my bringing up this argument is to combat the idea that the universe has always been. Some may think the universe brought itself into existance, that it was somehow its own cause, and that is something I would like to get into later. At the momen my interest is with anyone who thinks the universe has always been.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

A cause and a reason are different things. I am not trying to say the universe serves a purpose, just that it is, and that is because something made it is, if you know what I'm saying. Simply cause and effect. The universe is an effect, hence a cause.

Secondly, the primary purpose of my bringing up this argument is to combat the idea that the universe has always been. Some may think the universe brought itself into existance, that it was somehow its own cause, and that is something I would like to get into later. At the momen my interest is with anyone who thinks the universe has always been.

Why must the universe be an effect? What is the cause of God?

[Jack]

What is the cause of God?

Just be"cause"? :)

[LetThereBe]

Why must the universe be an effect? What is the cause of God?

Again, why are you making the assumption of God? Lets start this simply with the idea of an infinite past. While infinite time can exist in the sence that it can have infinite subdevisions within any given interval, that is not the same as the universe has always been. Most creationists say when God created the matter of the universe, He also created time, which is proving to be very interelated with all other dimensions. But at the moment, thats not what my question is. Don't turn this to God yet.
Secondly, the exact wording states what begins to exist has a cause. If the universe did not exist into the infinite past, then it began to exist. Hence having a cause. Can you agree with that much?

Point blank yes or no: Do you see any potential for an infinite past in regards to the universe.

[Jack]

Do you see any potential for an infinite past in regards to the universe.

As we understand infinity, no. But time at the moment of the creation of the universe would not be the same time we now understand.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Again, why are you making the assumption of God? Lets start this simply with the idea of an infinite past. While infinite time can exist in the sence that it can have infinite subdevisions within any given interval, that is not the same as the universe has always been. Most creationists say when God created the matter of the universe, He also created time, which is proving to be very interelated with all other dimensions. But at the moment, thats not what my question is. Don't turn this to God yet.
Secondly, the exact wording states what begins to exist has a cause. If the universe did not exist into the infinite past, then it began to exist. Hence having a cause. Can you agree with that much?

Point blank yes or no: Do you see any potential for an infinite past in regards to the universe.

Why must there be a creation, or cause for that matter? Isn't cause just a human concept, like life and death? Must we apply all human made concepts into the depth of the universe?

In short, it's completely fair to say the universe has always existed. It may have never "begun" to exist in the first place.

[LetThereBe]

Why must there be a creation, or cause for that matter? Isn't cause just a human concept, like life and death? Must we apply all human made concepts into the depth of the universe?

In short, it's completely fair to say the universe has always existed. It may have never "begun" to exist in the first place.

Again, you do not think the laws of thermodynamics always operated? Eventually everything would be converted into heat-energy. The universe would be consumed by entropy. How could this be reversed, minus an intervening force of infinite energy, which I could only identify as God? If the universe always existed, all stars would have burned out, all planets would have been cold and dead, and life would be impossible. Anything that could possibly be in any way less organized would have been so infinitely ago.