User Tag List

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 LastLast
Results 61 to 72 of 110

Thread: Killing for food and clothing is okay. So is killing for fun.

  1. #61
    Just plain WEIRD Ken Carman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    3,833
    Threads
    89
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Strawman View Post
    I think that it is ethically justifiable to kill animals, not only for food and clothing, but also for fun and sport.

    Many people think that hunting for trophies is bad, and the only way to justify hunting is if you do it for food. Actually, the opposite is closer to the truth.

    Let's take the example of deer hunting. If you are hunting for food, then you will target young deer. The flesh of old deer does not taste as good. However, if you are hunting for a trophy, it is the older deer with bigger antlers that you will target. Which is worse, to cut down an adolescent deer before it has even had a chance to really contribute to the gene pool, or to kill an old, experienced buck who has fathered many other deer and has lived a long, full life?

    I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with turning the slain deer into meat. If you feel like doing all the work, and if you like venison, fine (I myself am not a fan of venison). But there is nothing intrinsically wrong with cutting off the head for a trophy and then leaving the rest of the carcass to just rot. Nothing ever goes to waste in nature. Does it really make the act more moral if the corpse is eaten by a human, versus a coyote or a buzzard?

    Also, the killing of an old, experienced buck has moral value that cannot be found in the slaughter of adolescent deer for food. Generally, the hunter who seeks food just goes to a deer farm, or to some semi-populated farming type community where the deer are more familiar with humans, are less afraid of humans, and hence are easier to kill. Then he just puts out a salt lick and blows away the first deer that is young and stupid enough to come out in the open. The more serious hunter must go deeper into the woods. The old buck being hunted has survived in nature for so long for the very reason that he has learned to be wary of humans and other predators. His senses are sharp, and he will flee at the first sign of man. The territory you are hunting him on is probably more familiar to him than it is to you; over his many years of experience, he has learned all of the trails like the back of his hand. Because it takes more practice and effort, serious trophy hunting has more value than killing for food.

    If the young adolescent bucks knew what you were up, then they would certainly appreciate it. They certainly will experience the beneficial effects: the old bucks with the big antlers are the alphas of the pack, and by getting them out of the way, the younger bucks will gain more access to the females.

    Deer don't have a retirement plan. What is worse? To just get older and older, until you eventually break a leg and die a slow and miserable death of exposure? Or, to be suddenly cut down at your peak, after a long, full life, by an experienced and serious hunter who respects his prey?

    Once again, I repeat, merely eating the corpse does not justify murder. Jeffery Dahmer ate some of his victims, but most people think that this makes his crimes even worse. It certainly does not justify them.

    In conclusion. A lot of people want to debate the ethics of killing animals for food. I respect their position, even if I don't agree with it. It probably takes some real determination to practice this ethic in a society that is dominated by the consumption of meat. On the other hand, I do not respect the attitude of those who want to excuse killing for food, mainly because they like meat and want to continue eating it, but who then go on to say there is something wrong with killing for pleasure. Certain types of killing for pleasure, like trophy hunting, have greater moral value than simply killing for food.
    We can't live without killing something. We can limit the killing. I'm not much for trophy hunting, but have hunted for food. We used every part of the deer and made sure the kill was quick and as painless as possible.

    Many loath hunting but eat plants with little thought. How do we know for sure what feels pain, what does not, what forms of life are more worthy, what forms less worthy? I remember a study I read where they took two plants and separated them in different rooms then tortured another: the one untouched reacted to the torment.

    I do think giving more respect to what seems to be the highest lifeforms: sentient from our perspective, is the wisest course. But we must always remember we may have it far more wrong than we think we do.

    Ken's weekly column...

    Inspection.

  2. #62
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    355
    Threads
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Zeebadee View Post
    Do your thoughts about killing for food and clothing extend to the disadvantaged segment of society that are homeless and living from day-to-day? Is it justifiable for a bag lady to kill in order to get a square meal??
    No.

    Every human has a right to life. When it is a question of your own survival, it is justifiable to commit some minor crimes, especially petty theft. In other words, it is justifiable for a starving bag lady to steal a loaf of bread. However, other humans also have a right to survival, and the bag lady's life doesn't intrinsically have more value than some other person's. So the bag lady isn't allowed to bash someone else over the head, and potentially kill them, to steal their money to buy bread. Any crime that could potentially cause the death of another innocent human would be morally wrong, in this case; she is not allowed to use a pistol to rob a gas station, because this could very foreseeably result in a death. She is, from a moral point of view, in my mind, allowed to shoplift from the gas station.

    Murder for survival is only justifiable if the person you kill is attacking you, or poses some imminent hazard. If the bag lady is being stomped on and beaten by a pack of violent youths, like in A Clockwork Orange, it would definitely be justifiable for her to pull out a pistol and blow one of them away. But if she is robbing a store with her pistol, then it is justifiable for the shopkeeper or anyone else in the store to pull their piece and blow her away, even before she has fired a shot, because she poses an imminent risk of death or injury to everyone else in the store.

    But, I believe the bag lady can kill a deer or something, for food. Any wild animal, anyway. I wouldn't want her killing people's dogs and cats; this is a question of personal property. The rights of animals rate lower than humans, however, and it is definitely more justifiable for a hungry person to kill and eat an animal, versus a human.

    But these are only the simplest, most basic types of murder: murder for survival and self-defense. My original question is mainly concerned with a different kind of murder. For lack of a better phrase, I have been calling it murder for "fun." Murder that is a question of survival is easy to justify, but I think that other types of murder can also be justified.

    Not only can an animal be killed for food, in my estimation, it can also be killed for fun (in some circumstances). I believe that it is even justifiable to kill humans for fun (in automobile races, and other death sports).

    I have been trying to figure out the case of murder for revenge (which does not apply to animals, of course). The revenge-killer definitely derives some satisfaction from his act, but I hesitate to call it "fun." In any case, I think it is justifiable. If I was on a jury, and if the defendant had a legitimate grievance, and had only hurt the person who caused the grievance, then I would always vote to acquit.


  3. #63
    Male Lesbian ruksak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    INDY
    Posts
    3,342
    Threads
    31
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Zeebadee View Post
    Do your thoughts about killing for food and clothing extend to the disadvantaged segment of society that are homeless and living from day-to-day? Is it justifiable for a bag lady to kill in order to get a square meal??

    I assume you mean killing animals for food? We're not talking about soylent green, are we?

    If you can prove that it was absolutely necessary to kill an animal for food, in the absence of a hunting license/out of season, I believe it is legal.

    Dear Optimist, Pessimist and Realist, while you guys were arguing about the glass of water, I drank it! ~ Sincerely, the Opportunist.

  4. #64
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    467
    Threads
    2
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I understand your points on killing for self defense or stealing for survival, Strawman, but I'm puzzled about what appears to me an artificial moral distinction between humans and other animals. You say it's OK for the bag lady to kill a deer for food, but not her neighbor. I'm not clear what places a deer and a person in different moral categories, though. Why is it OK to harm one species and not the other? What qualities does a person have that entitles him to special moral status?


  5. #65
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    355
    Threads
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: seyorni View Post
    I understand your points on killing for self defense or stealing for survival, Strawman, but I'm puzzled about what appears to me an artificial moral distinction between humans and other animals. You say it's OK for the bag lady to kill a deer for food, but not her neighbor. I'm not clear what places a deer and a person in different moral categories, though. Why is it OK to harm one species and not the other? What qualities does a person have that entitles him to special moral status?
    I agree with the following poster, despite the typos.

    Quote Quote by: Ken Carman View Post
    I do think giving more respect to what seems to be the highest lifeforms: sentient from our perspective, is the wisest course. But we must always remember we may have it far more wrong than we think we do.
    To kill plants in order to sustain human life is more justifiable than killing animals, because animals are more sentient than plants. To kill animals for food is more justifiable than to kill humans for food, because humans are more sentient.

    But, my argument is that sentient organisms can be killed, not just for food, but for fun. Trophy hunting, bull fighting, and automobile racing all involve the killing of sentient organisms, and these activities can all be justified by sound argument.


  6. #66
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    467
    Threads
    2
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    But humans are not more sentient than animals, just more intelligent. Nor are we consistent in using intelligence as a moral metric. We place the senile, the dim and children the same moral category we do our neighbors.


  7. #67
    Trolletariat's Enemy Thanatos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Orleans
    Posts
    6,842
    Threads
    605
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: seyorni View Post
    But humans are not more sentient than animals, just more intelligent. Nor are we consistent in using intelligence as a moral metric. We place the senile, the dim and children the same moral category we do our neighbors.
    I believe most animals only have brief flashes of sentience and clarity, just like people.

    People usually have somewhat more interesting mental patterns due to their larger, language-oriented brains and more stimulating environments. Therefore, they're worth more.

    The more you complain, the less I care about your problems.

  8. #68
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    467
    Threads
    2
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hmmm...
    Morality based on linguistic proficiency and interesting mental patterns.

    Interesting.....


  9. #69
    Trolletariat's Enemy Thanatos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Orleans
    Posts
    6,842
    Threads
    605
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: seyorni View Post
    Hmmm...
    Morality based on linguistic proficiency and interesting mental patterns.

    Interesting.....
    What? If it can't understand the phrase "social contract" then it's downgraded and placed on the fringes of said contract, and if it can't process pain at all then it better be really interesting.

    The more you complain, the less I care about your problems.

  10. #70
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    467
    Threads
    2
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It seems to me that few, if any, of our mental or psychic qualities are unique. There's a qualitative spectrum.
    Singling out hominens for special consideration seems arbitrary and self-serving.


  11. #71
    Volcanic Erupter
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,012
    Threads
    137
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If my family is starving, and you live alone, hoard supplies, and refuse to share, is the killing of one human morally justifiable in order to save several??

    I upped my income, up yours.

  12. #72
    Igneous Magma
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    467
    Threads
    2
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, that's a horse of a different colour, innit?


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •