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Thread: Reincarnation: A Reason Based Fact of Reality

  1. #37
    Molten Ash
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    (Continued from above.)

    The key idea that you need to make sense out of all of this is that all species, including intelligent species, occupy what evolutionists refer to as "niches." Each niche exhibits a specific set of obstacles to be overcome and threats that must be avoided, by the members of any species which occupies it. In that niche, reproductive success depends on a specific set of skills, and the greater the amount of time required to acquire them, the greater the risk to the individual. Many species acquire the skills they need genetically, by means of the sorts of "hard-wired," virtually reflexive, essentially unconditional behavior patterns that are usually called "instincts." However, for the larger-brained, more intelligent species that must adapt their responses to more complex situations, that which is "hard-wired" into the brain is not so much patterns of behavior as tools of thought. What happens is that understandings of those aspects of reality that are crucial to success at problem solving in that particular niche are built into the brains of infants under genetic control as part of embryonic, fetal, or infant development.

    It must be emphasized that the required capabilities vary from niche to niche and that human beings face more difficult problem-solving tasks than do lower animals. For example, no chimpanzee depends for his survival on his ability to keep an automobile from plunging off of a mountain road, or to fly an airplane, or to perform complex tasks in a steel mill without being burned to a crisp or crushed to death by moving metal. Moreover, such considerations continue to apply as we move up the phylogenetic scale beyond man. For example, consider the members of species whose lives are spent in starships, working with devices that wield more power than all the machinery operated by man on Earth combined. Since their lives would depend on their being able to create, use, and maintain those devices safely, there can be no doubt that natural selection will cause more tools of thought, core understandings, core knowledge, procedural logic, or whatever you choose to call it, to be implanted in their brains than are implanted in the brains of human infants.

    To comprehend the full spectrum of genetically encoded knowledge, in short, you need to follow the evolutionary logic wherever it leads, even if in doing so you are forced to accept the reality that human beings are not really very smart, and are not really very important, in the overall universal scheme of things.
    **********************************************

    You said:

    "... we certainly can't pass any added instinct to our children ..."

    My response:

    First, as indicated above, I'm not really focused on "instinct" per se, but on cognitive tools, understandings, core knowledge, etc.

    Second, I never said that the new cognitive tools which we develop in our lives--by studying mathematics, for example--can be passed on to our children by genetic means. If the son of a mathematician wants to become a mathematician, he is going to have to work hard to master the field, just like his father. How hard depends in part on the mathematically related understandings passed on to him genetically from his parents, and part depends on his environment.

    Third and much more to the point, when an individual appears somewhere else in the universe after your death whose core understandings incorporate both your core understandings and your acquired understandings, he is extremely unlikely to be one of your lineal descendants, or the lineal descendant of any human. He will come into existence (a) because a set of understandings very similar to the set that existed in your brain when you died will be crucial to success in the niche occupied by his species, and (b) because, due to genetic variation, a set identical to yours eventually turned up.
    **********************************************

    You said:

    "... unless you can Vulcan mind meld. I also seriously doubt that anyone would consider an individual with the same instincts as their father to actually be the reincarnated father."

    My response:

    What "anyone would consider" is not the point. We know that there exists a recipe for each of us--an assemblage of material ingredients which will bring us into the world. That recipe, if followed, will produce a being such that, when he opens his eyes, we will see. We know that because we are each in the world right now, and we were not here before. What we do not know with exactitude, however, is the nature of that recipe.

    It seems reasonable, however, to reach the following conclusions:

    (1) If the core understandings of a newly incarnated infant are equal to the core plus acquired understandings that an earlier person had when he died, then the consciousness of that dead person will be restarted in that infant's brain. Hence our understandings are part of the essence of who we are.

    (2) Since we come into the world without memories, I don't see how having memories could be part of the essence of a person. The mind is the thing that is conscious, so it must already be present when sensory inputs begin streaming into the storage area which we call "memory." Result: the presence of specific memories cannot be part of the essence of who we are.
    **********************************************

    You said:

    "What do you think of the theory that this is just a computer simulation running on a supercomputer of the future and we're all just conscious subroutines that get used in one simulation after another? It requires very few assumptions and I can't find a flaw with it."

    My response:

    You can't find a flaw because your question is predicated on the assumption that there is no flaw. In essence, you are saying that if we are brains floating in a vat with electrodes attached, connected to a computer that simulates physical reality flawlessly, then we could never know that the simulated physical reality was unreal.

    You might as well waste your time worrying that there is a leprechaun living in your refrigerator who vanishes whenever you look inside.
    **********************************************


  2. #38
    dead for tax reasons Peter's Avatar
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    Hickory, I'm not getting into a tit for tat, escalating text wall debate with you. We'll have to agree to disagree on instince vs core knowledge. BTW, I do have a leprechaun in my refrigerator.

    Religion is poison because it asks us to give up our most precious faculty, which is that of reason, and to believe things without evidence. It then asks us to respect this, which it calls faith. - Christopher Hitchens

  3. #39
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    Consciousness from the body is doomed to be without the body. Thrown into a foreign land blindfolded and tied to a wheelchair better represents the challenge presented by the new territory. Will the translation be familiar or strange? Most fear strange and new environments. When unexpectedly in freefall weightlessness I freak out and I've experienced such hundreds of times intentionally. There will be much translations of the basics of physicality and few particulars in the worldview that embraces reincarnation. Most particulars are absorbed into the unconscious chaos, the world that sources dreams.

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  4. #40
    Molten Ash
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    To Peter:

    This is an immensely important topic, and I appreciate your willingness to assist me in exploring it. I wish you luck in all your future endeavors.


  5. #41
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    The best that one exploring past lives can do is to explore their own. But how? Is it dangerous? The second best is to communicate with one who has been down the path. The unexpected comes often, horizons of experience expand, and realizations of self are confronted with horror in spite of one's confidence. This happened to a personal friend of mine.

    Amazon.com: Desert Journey (9780595422265): Dr Jerry Burgener: Books

    Dr Jerry author of Desert Journey, goes beyond The Secret in his spiritual journey of self-discovery

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  6. #42
    Staunch Gaytheist Night's Avatar
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    Hickory's entire premise requires one to believe in dualism, which is the belief that the mind (soul, spirit, consciousness, whatever term you want to use...) is an independent entity from the body.

    I reject this idea from the start. The mind results FROM the body. This idea that consciousness is some different plane of existence just has no basis in fact. It isn't true. The mind is a by-product of the brain.

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  7. #43
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Night View Post
    Hickory's entire premise requires one to believe in dualism, which is the belief that the mind (soul, spirit, consciousness, whatever term you want to use...) is an independent entity from the body.

    I reject this idea from the start. The mind results FROM the body. This idea that consciousness is some different plane of existence just has no basis in fact. It isn't true. The mind is a by-product of the brain.
    All I know is that there seems to be things like hammers and furnace intake floor grates that are independent of my mind/brain and get quite a reaction when they tear into my body parts. There is I and then there is the NOT I.

    Sure, you and I want to say mind did this or the brain does that as if there is no significance to mastering either. However many do work on the grey matter to great effect, great signficance. Feedback? Don't see why not. But some choose not to work on improving or even allowing that the brain can improve with training by going into areas that are spoken of in terms such as lucid dreaming or past lives or even weirder stuff.

    I can accept that you see them all the same in objectiveness but in subjectiveness there are other types of consciousness such as dream, drug induced, and normal consciousness that are all produced by the mind/brain. The duality comes from the distinctive differences between the various types of relationships that consciousness has of the environment and the experiencer. Sure its a subjective thing. But one that has similarities in others from their descriptions, and so even if derived from the general structure and architecture of the brain, a curious person has a wide choice of techniques to choose to see just what kinds of things can be experienced by that mindworld generator brain of ours. Just don't get dysfunctional from waking reality and go off a nut and do damage to self or others.

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  8. #44
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    To Minorwork:

    You advocated "exploring past lives."

    My response:

    In my view, our brains contain no information about our past lives. Hence the various methods that have been suggested for recovering that information (drugs, sensory deprivation, hypnosis, etc.) are, in fact, merely producing hallucinations, dreams, and similar phenomena, which are then misinterpreted as information about past lives.

    Understanding why our brains contain no information about past lives requires an understanding of how biological evolution, a.k.a. "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest," works.

    The key concept is that natural selection only retains traits that confer a reproductive advantage on the individuals who possess them. An infant who comes into the world with a functioning heart, for example, lives, hence he has a chance to reach adulthood and reproduce. When that happens, genes capable of producing a healthy heart are retained in the gene pool of the species. If, on the other hand, he does not have a functioning heart, he dies, and the genes which produced that malfunctioning heart are removed from the gene pool of the species.

    Core understandings are retained or eliminated in the same way. If, for example, a human infant comes into the world who does not understand that the noises made by adults of his species are the symbols of a spoken language, then he will make no more attempt to figure out what they mean than he will make to figure out the meanings of random sounds that he encounters in his environment. Result: he will not learn to speak, will remain cut off from the vast trove of information that knowing a language would make available to him, will be perceived as "retarded" by his peers, and will be very unlikely to produce offspring. Result: the genetic defect which prevented him from attending to language cues will be eliminated from the gene pool of his species.

    Why does natural selection, in humans, merely produce an understanding of the importance of focusing on language cues, rather than implanting the language itself in the brains of infants? One reason is that human language is enormously complex. A species of bird can have a few specific cries genetically encoded into its brain--a cry indicating the presence of danger, a cry indicating the presence of food, a cry indicating anger, etc. But human language contains too many symbols for that to be practicable. For advanced species, it is easier to implant an understanding of the importance of learning language than it is to implant the language itself. Another reason is that the human environment requires specialization; hence the meanings of words must vary, depending on the field of specialization in which they are to be used. "Work," for example, means one thing to an economist, and something quite different to a physicist. Thus there is a requirement of flexibility in the use of symbols that precludes the implantation of specific symbols attached to specific meanings in the human brain.

    What this all means is that there is no reproductive advantage associated with the implantation of specific sensory data (memories) in the brains of infants, where large-brained, intelligent species are concerned. There is, however, a massive reproductive advantage associated with implanting concepts that are necessary to success. Result: biological evolution will ensure that the conceptual understandings that you had at the time of your death will eventually be implanted in the brain of an infant on some future world after your life on Earth ends. That will occur because there will be a species, somewhere in this vast universe, for which those understandings will be sufficiently important to success to cause them to be genetically encoded. However, there would be no possible reproductive advantage associated with implanting memories of a past life into the brain of an infant, and no possible mechanism by which those memories might be recreated. Result: the memories you had at the time of your death are lost forever. You will begin your next life without memories of this one, just as you began this life without memories of the life that preceded it.

    You may want to recover memories of previous lives, but you can't do it, because no such memories exist in your brain.


  9. #45
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    To Night:

    You said:

    "Hickory's entire premise requires one to believe in dualism, which is the belief that the mind (soul, spirit, consciousness, whatever term you want to use...) is an independent entity from the body.

    I reject this idea from the start. The mind results FROM the body. This idea that consciousness is some different plane of existence just has no basis in fact. It isn't true. The mind is a by-product of the brain."

    My response:

    The existence of an individual mind requires an arrangement of matter in accordance with the recipe for that individual mind. We come into the world when the requirements of our individual recipes are satisfied, and we leave it (die) when they cease to be satisfied. Thus nothing I have said implies that the mind exists independent of the body. My position is that when you are dead, you only exist as a potentiality--i.e., as a possible manifestation of the laws of physics. That means the recipe for you will continue to exist, but your mind will not exist again until the recipe for you is fulfilled again.


  10. #46
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    To All:

    I just re-read my post of Dec. 22 at 2:13 p.m. and noticed that the third reference I included was the same as the second. I'm not sure how that happened, but here is the reference I intended to post:

    Behavioral Genetics and Animal Science

    I realize most people don't bother to check references, but to those who do I apologize for any frustration I may have caused.


  11. #47
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Hickory View Post
    In my view, our brains contain no information about our past lives. Hence the various methods that have been suggested for recovering that information (drugs, sensory deprivation, hypnosis, etc.) are, in fact, merely producing hallucinations, dreams, and similar phenomena, which are then misinterpreted as information about past lives.
    I agree 100%. Yet in using the reincarnation theory as a base to manage some dysfunctions, presuming past lives is useful.

    Is there no value in a dream? Is there no value to be had from exploring self? I think there is a value and a danger involved in these. If objectivity is lost then one becomes isolated from society in such a pronounced fashion that dysfunction results. The value is in gaining the experience of an alternate realm that is inevitable and correcting existing dysfunction or, most likely, learning to work around that which initiates the existing dysfunction. If the past life experience is experienced in its most conscious immediacy, then the effect if properly handled can, and has been considered a valuable means to managing psychoses, IMO. Not the only means, of course.

    You may want to recover memories of previous lives, but you can't do it, because no such memories exist in your brain.
    I don't disagree. When in the experience of other than waking consciousness the reality that is reacted to APPEARS real enough that it is remembered IN CONTEXT. A context that can be appropriated to something, say an imbalance in waking life, such that an addiction or other problem can be explained and retained, but manage in a more appropriate fashion than dysfunction the psyche's drive that gives energy to living in the waking life. Do you want to kill off the psyche's energy to battle dysfunction or create zombies with meds? The trend since Reagan years has been to medicate. So many fail to take their meds not liking the zombifying effect.

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  12. #48
    Staunch Gaytheist Night's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Hickory View Post
    To Night:

    You said:

    "Hickory's entire premise requires one to believe in dualism, which is the belief that the mind (soul, spirit, consciousness, whatever term you want to use...) is an independent entity from the body.

    I reject this idea from the start. The mind results FROM the body. This idea that consciousness is some different plane of existence just has no basis in fact. It isn't true. The mind is a by-product of the brain."

    My response:

    The existence of an individual mind requires an arrangement of matter in accordance with the recipe for that individual mind. We come into the world when the requirements of our individual recipes are satisfied, and we leave it (die) when they cease to be satisfied. Thus nothing I have said implies that the mind exists independent of the body. My position is that when you are dead, you only exist as a potentiality--i.e., as a possible manifestation of the laws of physics. That means the recipe for you will continue to exist, but your mind will not exist again until the recipe for you is fulfilled again.
    And in this post alone you are correct. But just because something is physically possible doesn't mean it will occur. There is NO evidence for reincarnation. Reincarnation is as ridiculous as Christianity.

    Turning your sacred cows into steak.
    "Reality is for people who can't cope with drugs" - Robin Williams
    Quote Quote by: arX View Post
    Christians must have penis envy. And by penis, I mean Islam.

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