Regarding Cremation

[Nuitana]

You might say, "Howdy, stranger!", as I haven't been here in years. Something has come up that makes me want some input and discussion on the topic of cremation. I've come across various bits and pieces as far as religious views, and would welcome more in depth ideas from those who might have strong beliefs or knowledge, religiously or otherwise.

I know that many people choose cremation, and there are appealing arguments in favor of it that some people agree with. I do not agree, and believe that it is wrong and an act against nature and any idea of God. In addition, I believe that the majority of people who choose it do so solely because of money, and in fact, they believe they have no choice. Many do not care and don't have religious beliefs against cremation. In reading a bit about the Jewish position at chabad.org, I noted that even when a person claims ahead of time that it is his wish to be cremated, if Jews are in charge, they do not honor that wish. The belief is that the person stating his future wish is not in the position to make that choice, because he is not fully informed or in the position he will be in when he has died. This is interesting to me because I also don't believe in "do not resuscitate" orders. Suppose a couple of weeks on a ventilator allows the person to go on to live 20 years? One with a DNR order won't have that chance, and none of us knows what such a circumstance would be ahead of time. Some choices just can't be made ahead of time.

Apart from spiritual reasons, I find the idea of cremation repugnant because of its connotation involving Jews, witches and poor people. People who die in our county without resources get cremated. It seems like a punishment, to me. When I think of the question of how Hitler managed to accomplish his aims and have the support of the people in doing so, I can't help but think the reason is the same as why people would go along with cremation.

Things I've come across -

1) Neptune Society has a coral reef in Florida that looks oh so beautiful, decorated with cremated remains - Neptune Memorial Reef. Of course, it ignores that incineration of a human being is anything but beautiful. This disposition is supposed to be "green", but the informed position is that burial is actually more green than cremation, under ordinary circumstances.

2) Muslims don't dismiss the possibility that the person being cremated can feel it.

3) Gehenna, spoken of by Jesus in the bible, means the garbage dump where bodies of dead people could be found, when these people did not have family to bury them. To me this means that cremation is the hell that Jesus was speaking of, though nowadays through modern "improvements", it isn't quite the same.

4) Some Hindu or Indian religions mandate cremation. I think I could go along with it if I were of those religions, since they have some kind of goal that comes out of a real way of thinking. The idea seems to be that fire offers some elemental completion, and because the spirit of the person tends to cling to the body that it is associated with, it rips the two apart so that the spirit can be free, rather than trapped with/near the body. To me, this also lends credence to the notion that the one being cremated knows it and feels it. It is a violent and abrupt destruction, rather than the natural process that comes with burial.

5) Cremation has been going on in the USA for 125+ years. The number of people choosing it has grown and continues to grow.

We are talking about incinerating a human body. I have seen ads that claim that cremation is carried out in a dignified way, and is a respectful way to dispose of a loved one. This is not how I define dignity or respect, but it does make me think of how some people react to the burning of inanimate objects, such as American flags, bibles, qur'ans and such. I wonder if it would be uber-respectful to cremate someone wrapped in an American flag, holding a bible, with a dollar bill with the words "In God We Trust" as the bookmarker? Or are those inanimate objects just too sacred to burn?

[Dismay]

I know that many people choose cremation, and there are appealing arguments in favor of it that some people agree with. I do not agree, and believe that it is wrong and an act against nature and any idea of God.

Against nature? how? Against god which?

In addition, I believe that the majority of people who choose it do so solely because of money, and in fact, they believe they have no choice. Many do not care and don't have religious beliefs against cremation.

Alright then what is you problem with them choosing to cremate? It isnt your corpse.

In reading a bit about the Jewish position at chabad.org, I noted that even when a person claims ahead of time that it is his wish to be cremated, if Jews are in charge, they do not honor that wish.

So? If you want to be cremated don't put the Jews in charge of your funeral arrangements.

The belief is that the person stating his future wish is not in the position to make that choice, because he is not fully informed or in the position he will be in when he has died.

It is their choice you have no business complaining about other's funeral arrangements.

This is interesting to me because I also don't believe in "do not resuscitate" orders. Suppose a couple of weeks on a ventilator allows the person to go on to live 20 years? One with a DNR order won't have that chance, and none of us knows what such a circumstance would be ahead of time. Some choices just can't be made ahead of time.

If you dont wish to sign a DNR then you dont have to sign one. But dont presume you have ownership of others lives and choices.

Apart from spiritual reasons, I find the idea of cremation repugnant because of its connotation involving Jews, witches and poor people

Really you believe in witches? Anyway despite your personal feelings about witches others who do not share them are free to choose cremation.

People who die in our county without resources get cremated. It seems like a punishment, to me.

A punishment? Hardly it is a cheaper alternative when the state must pay for the burial.

When I think of the question of how Hitler managed to accomplish his aims and have the support of the people in doing so, I can't help but think the reason is the same as why people would go along with cremation.

So if you have no problem with cremation you are equivalent with Hitler? Do you list to yourself?

Things I've come across -

1) Neptune Society has a coral reef in Florida that looks oh so beautiful, decorated with cremated remains - Neptune Memorial Reef. Of course, it ignores that incineration of a human being is anything but beautiful. This disposition is supposed to be "green", but the informed position is that burial is actually more green than cremation, under ordinary circumstances.

And becoming worm food is beautiful? People have an option to make you made up your mind but why do you feel the need to make up everyone's mind for them?

2) Muslims don't dismiss the possibility that the person being cremated can feel it.

Facts do... Your pain receptors are no longer functioning.

3) Gehenna, spoken of by Jesus in the bible, means the garbage dump where bodies of dead people could be found, when these people did not have family to bury them. To me this means that cremation is the hell that Jesus was speaking of, though nowadays through modern "improvements", it isn't quite the same.

And those that could care less what Jesus supposedly spoke of?

4) Some Hindu or Indian religions mandate cremation. I think I could go along with it if I were of those religions, since they have some kind of goal that comes out of a real way of thinking. The idea seems to be that fire offers some elemental completion, and because the spirit of the person tends to cling to the body that it is associated with, it rips the two apart so that the spirit can be free, rather than trapped with/near the body. To me, this also lends credence to the notion that the one being cremated knows it and feels it. It is a violent and abrupt destruction, rather than the natural process that comes with burial.

Why do you care? Choose your preferred method and move on.

5) Cremation has been going on in the USA for 125+ years. The number of people choosing it has grown and continues to grow.

and?

We are talking about incinerating a human body. I have seen ads that claim that cremation is carried out in a dignified way, and is a respectful way to dispose of a loved one. This is not how I define dignity or respect, but it does make me think of how some people react to the burning of inanimate objects, such as American flags, bibles, qur'ans and such. I wonder if it would be uber-respectful to cremate someone wrapped in an American flag, holding a bible, with a dollar bill with the words "In God We Trust" as the bookmarker? Or are those inanimate objects just too sacred to burn?

Why should your opinion be everyone's? If cremation bears a negative denotation to you fine bury yourself but I dont see where it is your place to judge other's funeral proceedings.

[minorwork]

Well my wife wants to be cremated. Told her that, dead, she wan't going to have much say. Figure I'll have her stuffed and stand her in the bedroom so I can play with her tits when I want.

On the lighter side, though, there are many alternatives to cremation. Here be ten. Ten uses for your body after you die - CNN.com

[minorwork]

Seriously, I don't think you've any right to say what happens to your carcass. The corpse should be an equity for the medical sciences to harvest your organs, teach surgeons, and research. And you want to feed coffin flies? They can go down 6 feet you know.

[Nuitana]

@Dismay - Burning a body is not natural when it comes to cremation. It is a deliberate act. Nature is what acts when there is no interference.

I don't have a problem with choice as far as cremation, though it bothers me greatly that people choose it with such ease. What does bother me is that it is often not at all a choice, but dictated by finances or position in society. If a destitute person dies, the county will have him cremated. At the same time, I've known people without money worries who have chosen cremation because of the cost. I think it's an important decision that deserves consideration, and that consideration should not be based on money at all. If a poor person loses a family member, he should not be forced to allow cremation. There should be choice for everyone, regardless of money.

As far as gods, men have created many of them. You mention that if I want to be cremated, don't let the Jews be in charge and I shouldn't dictate to others what to do. Nobody cremates himself, and as far as some of the more popular gods go, it would not be the victim who would pay the price - but the perpetrator. Whether someone directing his survivors to cremate him would be responsible for the results would be another philosophical question that supposes the existence of a god.

Could you tell me if you recognize some basis to choose cremation, completely apart from cost? If burial were the cheaper way, would anyone be heartbroken that he (or most likely his loved one) could not be incinerated?

There's nothing violent about becoming worm food. Why do you feel a need to dictate my motivations? I don't make up the minds of others, but enjoy knowing how (and especially THAT) they think.

I don't know whether a cremated person experiences it. I don't expect ever to know it, but knowing that pain receptors are not thought to function doesn't make me know anything other than a scientific statement.

@minorwork I sure don't agree with you. I believe in freedom, autonomy and authority over one's own business. The notion of being an equity for the use of medical sciences threatens my cherished illusions of autonomy and authority over me and mine. And of course it provides me with additional offense because I believe that the medical system is the #1 biggest scam in America.

[barts]

Apart from spiritual reasons, I find the idea of cremation repugnant because of its connotation involving Jews, witches and poor people.

How is something repugnant because you associate it with a group of people (Jews), people with little or no money (the poor), and mythical people (witches)? I fail to see how any of these groups have anything in common or how if they had something in common it would be intrinsically repugnant. Perhaps you can explain.

[Nuitana]

@barts - The Jews in question, the poor, and those accused of witchcraft and burned were all victims. I find it repugnant because I am a human being with a psyche, and that's how mine works.

[barts]

@barts - The Jews in question, the poor, and those accused of witchcraft and burned were all victims. I find it repugnant because I am a human being with a psyche, and that's how mine works.

Thanks for the explanation, Nuitana.

[Sean989]

Nuitana

It is my personal wish to be cremated and I fail to see your argument against it...I fail to see why you find the idea of cremation repugnant but more than happy to be pumped full of chemicals (mainly formaldehyde) when you die.

Firstly, I would say burial with no intent to preserve the body is greener than cremation but with the intent cremation wins.

Secondly, I have never heard a Muslim claim that the cremated person would feel the 'pain' of cremation and would be scientifically impossible.

Thirdly, Gehenna is not a 'dumping ground' for dead bodies...it is a place for the wicked. I also believe in Mark, Jesus is quoted as saying 'where their worm does not die' in reference to Gehenna.

In your fourth point you completely contradict your post by saying you would go along with cremation if it was religiously demanded...I am confused...

I also recently watched a program about the genealogy of a famous writer. She traveled to France to visit the grave of an ancestor. She was told on arrival that because no family came to claim the body as a family member he was exhumed from his original plot and buried in a communal grave that opened from a hatch. This can hardly be said to be more dignified, can it?

On this point how many can we bury in the earth? We demand so much from our planet as it stands but if every single person in the world was to be buried what would we leave to our descendants? Barren lands, little to no wood, enclosed living spaces due to massive graveyards, less water and less food?

[minorwork]

@minorwork I sure don't agree with you. I believe in freedom, autonomy and authority over one's own business.

I believe in those more than you.

The notion of being an equity for the use of medical sciences threatens my cherished illusions of autonomy and authority over me and mine.

Threatens your illusions? Gee, they won't get you till you're gone. If you want authority over your carcass after you're dead then sit up and tell them about it. No?? Tuff. Your corneas used to restore a person's sight? Screw them. Damn their eyes, eh?

And of course it provides me with additional offense because I believe that the medical system is the #1 biggest scam in America.

A big Mike Adams fan are you? Christian Scientist? Homeopathy heals? No scams there, eh?

[Dismay]

Seriously, I don't think you've any right to say what happens to your carcass. The corpse should be an equity for the medical sciences to harvest your organs, teach surgeons, and research. And you want to feed coffin flies? They can go down 6 feet you know.

You don't have any say about what happens to your body? Really your just a bit of meat for the practicing doctors to poke around at? You are free to donate your body for medical purposes but you have no right to force other to make the decision for other and act as though you own them.

[Nuitana]

@Sean989 - Thank you for speaking up, as someone who wishes to be cremated. I would not want to be embalmed, incidentally.

I read that gehenna was a garbage dump, and along with the garbage were dead bodies. I saw nothing to imply that it was a place for the wicked. The dead bodies mentioned had nobody to bury them. I am neither a Christian nor a bible scholar, but what do you think "the worm does not die" means? If you are a Christian and know the thinking that goes along with it, can you tell me whether a soul or spirit can be destroyed by fire? Or is this dependent upon who is doing the burning - human beings or gods? I am interested in religious thought on this, regardless of which religion it is.

Nuitana

In your fourth point you completely contradict your post by saying you would go along with cremation if it was religiously demanded...I am confused...

What I meant is that if there is any sort of explanation for wanting cremation, such as religious beliefs or anything at all apart from money, I might be able to understand why anyone would choose it. That idea of severing the attachment between body and spirit at least indicates a thought process. And it is the lack of apparent thought process amongst those who choose cremation that bothers me. For one thing, they seem fully confident that even though they are talking about their own body, somehow they will be absent from the process because they are dead.

I also recently watched a program about the genealogy of a famous writer. She traveled to France to visit the grave of an ancestor. She was told on arrival that because no family came to claim the body as a family member he was exhumed from his original plot and buried in a communal grave that opened from a hatch. This can hardly be said to be more dignified, can it?

On this point how many can we bury in the earth? We demand so much from our planet as it stands but if every single person in the world was to be buried what would we leave to our descendants? Barren lands, little to no wood, enclosed living spaces due to massive graveyards, less water and less food?

I don't find that circumstance to compare with cremation. It might sound a bit distasteful to be exhumed from an original grave and dumped into a communal grave, but that is not violent and it isn't a fiery pit burning a human being.

Right now, I can't imagine thinking that cremation is okay for anyone I care about. I think any sort of primitive burial would be preferable. But at least in my little world, it is not a subject that is often talked about or explored. Is your reason for choosing it that cemeteries and graves take up space? Do you have other reasons? If you had cradle to grave socialized health care, and upon death you were able to choose your means of disposal at no additional cost to you, would you still choose cremation? If burial were much less expensive than cremation, would you find cremation such a good choice that you would like to pay for it? Is the idea of being eaten by worms outrageous to you?