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Thread: Determinism on the rack

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    Determinism on the rack

    If I am my brain how can I be controlled by it?

    How can I freely assent to the idea that there is no free-will?

    If the first thought is "I am" how can it get in my way?

    If thoughts are illusions how did I discover the brain?

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    You're doin it wrong R.F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    If I am my brain how can I be controlled by it?

    How can I freely assent to the idea that there is no free-will?

    If the first thought is "I am" how can it get in my way?

    If thoughts are illusions how did I discover the brain?
    You are not your brain. You are more so a tool for it. conscious observation is a small amount of what the brain is responsible for.

    We can direct our thoughts towards a topic, but we are not in ultimate control of where our thoughts come from, thus we can will to think, but not freely. We can never stop thinking- we are slaves to our thoughts,

    I don't understand your third question.

    The premise is not that everything is an illsuion. Lets say for instance your on the couch, and you decide " I want something to eat" so you get something to eat, and eating it was what you willed. However, did you first choose to think " I want something to eat"? or did it more accurately just pop in your head. You can act on yur desires, but you cannot choose when a desire will arise.

    Try to remember every action you've done today. Now try and remember [for each action] when you determined to desire that. It will always draw blanks, I assure you. If we are unaware of why we will, than how can we be free to will?

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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    If I am my brain how can I be controlled by it?
    Easy, all your decisions are made in your brain.

    How can I freely assent to the idea that there is no free-will?
    Whether there is or is not free will is not dependent on whether one assents to free will or not.

    If the first thought is "I am" how can it get in my way?
    You do not, your brain makes that determination most often.

    If thoughts are illusions how did I discover the brain?
    thoughts may or may not be illusions, but they are most definitely a product of the brain.

    Insufficient information. this argument appears to made on the assumption there must be free will. To better understand what is free will, and whether there may or may not be free will by degrees, you pretty much have to give up preconceived biases as to the nature of free will.

    I do not believe that free will is as free as many traditional Christians believe it must be. But nonetheless it is likely that free will exists in a very limited degree, if it exists at all. By far most of our decisions in life fall in a narrow range of possibilities that show a chaos model fractal relationship. Many of our other choices are determined by our culture, and social conditioning. By far most of our decision making process involves survival as social species. According to the present knowledge of science even most choices as to whether we are sexually gay or straight is determined genetically. There a.are of course exceptions and borderline situations, but they are not the rule.

    The possibility of free will necessitates the uncomfortable 'thinking outside the box' and as history is a witness, this is rare.
    The empty cup contains the most

    Frank A Doonan

    Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk

    I do not know, therefore I think . . .

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    Hot Lava pbxilixdq's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    If I am my brain how can I be controlled by it?
    IF you are a brain, then the brain can control it because it is it, which means the brain can control you, because you're a brain.

    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy
    How can I freely assent to the idea that there is no free-will?
    Can you? What would this accomplish, how would this hypothetical accomplishment relate to reality. I have so many problems with this question..

    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy
    If the first thought is "I am" how can it get in my way?
    The only thing the thought "I am" could get in the way of is if you wanted to not be you? I don't think there's a long list. What are you trying to prove by asking this, anyways?

    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy
    If thoughts are illusions how did I discover the brain?
    HOW DID you? There are multiple ways.. yet again I fail to see the point of your questions. Please explain more.

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    Quote Quote by: R.F. View Post
    You are not your brain. You are more so a tool for it. conscious observation is a small amount of what the brain is responsible for.

    We can direct our thoughts towards a topic, but we are not in ultimate control of where our thoughts come from, thus we can will to think, but not freely. We can never stop thinking- we are slaves to our thoughts,

    I don't understand your third question.

    The premise is not that everything is an illsuion. Lets say for instance your on the couch, and you decide " I want something to eat" so you get something to eat, and eating it was what you willed. However, did you first choose to think " I want something to eat"? or did it more accurately just pop in your head. You can act on yur desires, but you cannot choose when a desire will arise.

    Try to remember every action you've done today. Now try and remember [for each action] when you determined to desire that. It will always draw blanks, I assure you. If we are unaware of why we will, than how can we be free to will?
    By my original point, we are still that object, whether you divide it into brain and mind or not.

    "Choosing" is the same as "popping into your head". This is because the reasons for making a choice to eat were based on wanting to eat.

    If we are 'unawar'e of why we will, then what would it be to be 'aware' of why we will? Awareness isn't divorced from willing, unless you conceive the object of a willing as just a spatiotemporal event.

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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    By my original point, we are still that object, whether you divide it into brain and mind or not.

    "Choosing" is the same as "popping into your head". This is because the reasons for making a choice to eat were based on wanting to eat.

    If we are 'unawar'e of why we will, then what would it be to be 'aware' of why we will? Awareness isn't divorced from willing, unless you conceive the object of a willing as just a spatiotemporal event.
    Quote Quote by: shunyadragon View Post
    Easy, all your decisions are made in your brain.



    Whether there is or is not free will is not dependent on whether one assents to free will or not.



    You do not, your brain makes that determination most often.



    thoughts may or may not be illusions, but they are most definitely a product of the brain.

    Insufficient information. this argument appears to made on the assumption there must be free will. To better understand what is free will, and whether there may or may not be free will by degrees, you pretty much have to give up preconceived biases as to the nature of free will.

    I do not believe that free will is as free as many traditional Christians believe it must be. But nonetheless it is likely that free will exists in a very limited degree, if it exists at all. By far most of our decisions in life fall in a narrow range of possibilities that show a chaos model fractal relationship. Many of our other choices are determined by our culture, and social conditioning. By far most of our decision making process involves survival as social species. According to the present knowledge of science even most choices as to whether we are sexually gay or straight is determined genetically. There a.are of course exceptions and borderline situations, but they are not the rule.

    The possibility of free will necessitates the uncomfortable 'thinking outside the box' and as history is a witness, this is rare.
    But if decisions are made in my brain, and I am my brain, then how can the brain make decisions "for" me?

    it doesn't matter where there is free-will or not. Wherever it is, how can I freely assent to free-will or determinism as a truth?

    How can I identify or discover an object of thought - the brain - if ny thoughts are illusions?

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    Quote Quote by: pbxilixdq View Post
    IF you are a brain, then the brain can control it because it is it, which means the brain can control you, because you're a brain.



    Can you? What would this accomplish, how would this hypothetical accomplishment relate to reality. I have so many problems with this question..



    The only thing the thought "I am" could get in the way of is if you wanted to not be you? I don't think there's a long list. What are you trying to prove by asking this, anyways?



    HOW DID you? There are multiple ways.. yet again I fail to see the point of your questions. Please explain more.
    How can I freely consider whether free will is true or not? Because if it is not true, then I can not freely consider.

    The thought "I am" can be seen to act as a determistic injunction, from which other things must follow. But that injunction can never get in "my" way.

    How can I discover an object concerened with thoughts -the brain, if my thoughts are an illusion?

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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    By my original point, we are still that object, whether you divide it into brain and mind or not.

    "Choosing" is the same as "popping into your head". This is because the reasons for making a choice to eat were based on wanting to eat.

    If we are 'unawar'e of why we will, then what would it be to be 'aware' of why we will? Awareness isn't divorced from willing, unless you conceive the object of a willing as just a spatiotemporal event.

    It is [I hope] safe to say that free will would need consciousness. I think we can atleast agree on that. If this can be said, it would [I hope] be agreeable that in turn our thoughts lead us to make decisions.

    But you do not choose to think. You are in more control of your heart beating than you are of your thoughts. Your conscious mind is on autopilot.

    Now it appears we make choices, and that we like wise will- however I'm only saying we dont do so freely- This supposes we are in complete control of every process that brings us to choose or act.

    Awareness is necessary for consciousness. If we freely make choices we have to be conscious of them; ergo being unaware is detrimental to the very concept of "free"will

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    Some pig. Charlatan's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    If I am my brain how can I be controlled by it?

    How can I freely assent to the idea that there is no free-will?

    If the first thought is "I am" how can it get in my way?

    If thoughts are illusions how did I discover the brain?
    Your nervous system reacts to stimulus, and for each reaction there is another reaction. You do not cause actions, you simply react. You will always take the path of least resistance, even though it may not seem to be, it is.
    !! Don't fear the reaper !!

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    Quote Quote by: Charlatan View Post
    Your nervous system reacts to stimulus, and for each reaction there is another reaction. You do not cause actions, you simply react. You will always take the path of least resistance, even though it may not seem to be, it is.
    Stimuli are external, hence contingent, so I cannot necessarily be determined by them.

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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    But if decisions are made in my brain, and I am my brain, then how can the brain make decisions "for" me?
    you are your brain, therefore your brain does not make decisions for you. Your brain makes the decisions.

    it doesn't matter where there is free-will or not. Wherever it is, how can I freely assent to free-will or determinism as a truth?
    You cannot distinguish your free assent to free will or determinism. These concept are defined by human assumptions and free will and determinism may not exist in the extremes defined.

    How can I identify or discover an object of thought - the brain - if ny thoughts are illusions?
    Your thoughts may or may not be illusions. If the object of thought is an objective fact outside the brain such as a gun on the table when you see a gun on the table. If you say I see a gun on a table in a specific place in China, your thought is likely an illusion, unless you have some objective knowledge of the existence of that dun on that table in China.

    I consider both free will and determinism on the rack.
    The empty cup contains the most

    Frank A Doonan

    Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk

    I do not know, therefore I think . . .

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    Quote Quote by: Jonesboy View Post
    If I am my brain how can I be controlled by it?

    How can I freely assent to the idea that there is no free-will?

    If the first thought is "I am" how can it get in my way?

    If thoughts are illusions how did I discover the brain?
    There is scientific evidence that the brain is non deterministic. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem has also been used to prove that human behavior must be non deterministic.

    It makes sense that desire and need come from sources outside of one's control. And it also makes sense that choice is based upon whichever desire or need is strongest. It would therefore follow that choice is based upon factors outside of one's control. If choice is not based upon desires and it is not random, what is really left for it to be based upon? I believe it is in the ability to desire. Consciousness itself is what gives us free will.

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