Is consciousness a necessary and sufficient condition for free will?

[trobd]

Is it the awareness of one's self that permits one to make choices? If one understands that he exists and that he is the actor in a number of actions, does that bestow upon him the ability to choose his actions?

This is to be a discussion, not an argument. Keep comments to the issues, not the people.

[pbxilixdq]

Is it the awareness of one's self that permits one to make choices? If one understands that he exists and that he is the actor in a number of actions, does that bestow upon him the ability to choose his actions?

This is to be a discussion, not an argument. Keep comments to the issues, not the people.

Awareness in terms of consciousness is always one of many possible states of awareness. What we are consciously aware of in our minds is but a small iceberg of information being processed in the entire network of our brains.

So you might think having knowledge of this would allow you the ability to choose what to be aware of.

And you'd be correct somewhat. You can choose to be aware of different aspects of your brain such as memories or facts about yourself, things you plan to do, etc. But you have to look at the context of everything.

No decision you make, no matter how aware you are of your biological predicament, will allow you to escape the facts. The facts are that your entire brain is a collection of information ready to be processed or recalled. And this information is intimately connected to the biological positioning of neurons. And the biological positioning of neurons is a matter of physics, not choice.

Awareness of one's self creates an illusion of free will because you can choose within the prison of your biological network. This is the identical predicament a computer chip (of unlimited processing power) faces in having free will.

If you feel this qualifies freedom, then you must admit computers have free will. But I won't argue that it doesn't qualify freedom because that depends on what you define as real to you. A mental prison can only be called a prison given the context of the reality outside it. If your mental awareness is the only reality you wish to consider, then it's not a prison and you are as free as you feel.

[R.F.]

Is it the awareness of one's self that permits one to make choices? If one understands that he exists and that he is the actor in a number of actions, does that bestow upon him the ability to choose his actions?

This is to be a discussion, not an argument. Keep comments to the issues, not the people.

Free will is uniformly misunderstood. Yes, it seems we can make choices- but the means that we reach those choices by is unknown. In fact I’m not sure why one assumes will is free at all… Whereas we can will to do a thing- we cannot will to will. When you pay attention to your thoughts, try and trace them to a starting point; try and find where you initiated or chose to think. You will always desire, or want- and you will do so without choice. We will in turn will, or act on these things.

[grandpa]

Free will is uniformly misunderstood.
Yes, it seems we can make choices- but the means
that we reach those choices by is unknown.

For the most part, people can do what they want with their lives. They can always blame their parents later.

Here is what I believe: People are biologically predetermined to have free will, but within the confines of their animalistic selves, their environment, and innumerable other factors (like genetics, as an obvious example).

It's important to not see situations as permanent, or as fate. People decide things based on assumptions related to a given situation.
Consider this issue, for example:
"...The budget fully funds the Violent Crime Trust Fund and
cuts 2,700 FBI agents. Now how do we reduce violent crime while also reducing the
number of people specifically charged with fighting it?"
Senate Session - C-SPAN Video Library

It seems obvious, but another person under other circumstances wouldn't be concerned about FBI agents fighting crime. An Ideal is as good as an unknown.

Grandpa h.

[Peter]

Awareness in terms of consciousness is always one of many possible states of awareness. What we are consciously aware of in our minds is but a small iceberg of information being processed in the entire network of our brains.

So you might think having knowledge of this would allow you the ability to choose what to be aware of.

And you'd be correct somewhat. You can choose to be aware of different aspects of your brain such as memories or facts about yourself, things you plan to do, etc. But you have to look at the context of everything.

No decision you make, no matter how aware you are of your biological predicament, will allow you to escape the facts. The facts are that your entire brain is a collection of information ready to be processed or recalled. And this information is intimately connected to the biological positioning of neurons. And the biological positioning of neurons is a matter of physics, not choice.

Awareness of one's self creates an illusion of free will because you can choose within the prison of your biological network. This is the identical predicament a computer chip (of unlimited processing power) faces in having free will.

If you feel this qualifies freedom, then you must admit computers have free will. But I won't argue that it doesn't qualify freedom because that depends on what you define as real to you. A mental prison can only be called a prison given the context of the reality outside it. If your mental awareness is the only reality you wish to consider, then it's not a prison and you are as free as you feel.

Well put pbxli...lid... may I call you ilix?

We have evolved to feel like we have free will.

I tend to think of true free will as the ability to step back and reverse a decision you've already made. This is impossible of course. I try to start every day with one or two impossible things. My record so far is pretty bad.

[R.F.]

For the most part, people can do what they want with their lives. They can always blame their parents later.

Here is what I believe: People are biologically predetermined to have free will, but within the confines of their animalistic selves, their environment, and innumerable other factors (like genetics, as an obvious example).

It's important to not see situations as permanent, or as fate. People decide things based on assumptions related to a given situation.
Consider this issue, for example:
"...The budget fully funds the Violent Crime Trust Fund and
cuts 2,700 FBI agents. Now how do we reduce violent crime while also reducing the
number of people specifically charged with fighting it?"
Senate Session - C-SPAN Video Library

It seems obvious, but another person under other circumstances wouldn't be concerned about FBI agents fighting crime. An Ideal is as good as an unknown.

Grandpa h.

People make choices. thats all that can really be said. We are are not free to will; for instance can you will to not think? is it even possible to control your brain on a real level? If something else is controlling the level of consciousness used to make choices [ the level at which we think or have dialogue with ourselves] then it safe to assume we are not in complete control of us.


"The physiologist Benjamin Libet famously demonstrated that activity in the brain’s motor regions can be detected some 300 milliseconds before a person feels that he has decided to move. Another lab recently used fMRI data to show that some “conscious” decisions can be predicted up to 10 seconds before they enter awareness (long before the preparatory motor activity detected by Libet). Clearly, findings of this kind are difficult to reconcile with the sense that one is the conscious source of one’s actions." The Blog : Free Will (And Why You Still Don’t Have It) : Sam Harris

[pbxilixdq]

Well put pbxli...lid... may I call you ilix?

We have evolved to feel like we have free will.

I tend to think of true free will as the ability to step back and reverse a decision you've already made. This is impossible of course. I try to start every day with one or two impossible things. My record so far is pretty bad.

Sure and I agree. Our brain allows us that feeling by keeping our awareness in the dark about the processing occurring behind each thought. So instead we feel as though our thoughts are inspired out of thin air by some mysterious sense of "will".

However it may be possible that there is a real concept behind "will" and that our awareness can steer itself somewhat effectively through unconscious realms of information.

My point addressed this, in that it would be freedom but only to the context of what is essentially a computer chip ready for processing information. So, not really free at all unless you define yourself as nothing beyond a mental state of information. Most people don't concern themselves with things beyond their mind so its as free as it needs to be for them. The illusion sticks.

[pbxilixdq]

Here is what I believe: People are biologically predetermined to have free will, but within the confines of their animalistic selves, their environment, and innumerable other factors (like genetics, as an obvious example).

This is essentially part of my point. You're free in your mind, but it's planned that way. So it's like a conditional freedom.

[Peter]

Hows this?

I can't will myself to like liver and onions any more than I can will myself to believe in the supernatural without evidence. Even if I was told about the nutritional benefits of liver and onions and that I should probably force them down for my own benefit and they can't hurt me. Pascals wager for liver and onions.

I don't think we have the free will generally ascribed to us by theists when it comes to believing in gods.

[R.F.]

There is no freedom in our will. The two words should have never been combined- it would have prevented much controversy. We will make choices and we will think, but we are not free to will otherwise. The will is subjugated by different levels of the brain. To say you are in control of your thoughts, is to say you're in control of your heart beating. We are like tools to our brain.

Sure, right now I am choosing to direct my thoughts and write down these ideas... and additionally I can choose to post this or not. What I cannot do is understand what brought me to do either. There is a point where we become unaware, and back tracking our actions leads to darkness, to unknowing. How can I be consciously aware and making choices freely whilst I am unaware of why I am doing so?

[Sigma_Tau_Theta]

Is it the awareness of one's self that permits one to make choices? If one understands that he exists and that he is the actor in a number of actions, does that bestow upon him the ability to choose his actions?

What you fail to take into account with free will is whether or not there is an entity that has the characteristic of all-knowing. If there is an entity with the quality of being all-knowing, does the entity's knowledge of my future actions prohibit me from taking another course of action or does the entity's knowledge bind my actions to the actions the entity knows I will take? Basically, if there is an entity that is all-knowing, can I act in a way that the entity does not know? In relation to the Abrahamic "God", this can be paired with "God's transcendence of time, where He may already be in what humans would call "the future" witnessing my actions. It's all a matter of perception. Humans are subject to the perspective of time, God, is general said not to be.

As for self -awareness in animals, I found this, then again, I don't really feel like looking that hard: Self-awareness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And for choices, this seemed interesting Capuchin monkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2005, experiments were conducted on the ability of capuchins to use money. After several months of training, the monkeys began exhibiting behaviors considered to reflect understanding of the concept of a medium of exchange that were previously believed to be restricted to humans (such as responding rationally to price shocks). They showed the same propensity to avoid perceived losses demonstrated by human subjects and investors. [14]

[trobd]

The question assumes free will.

Is it possible to have awareness of self, and still not have choice?

Is it possible to have choice without awareness of self?

A puppy or kitten chases his tail, not realizing that it is part of him. Then one day he succeeds in biting it, and realizes that he is separate from the rest of reality and that some of his actions benefit him and some hurt him. Does he have free will prior to this?