Do you believe in True Love (TM)?

[notthecheatr]

I don't know if there has ever been a thread like this before. If so, I apologize for making it. I'm genuinely curious about the general opinion of Volconvo users on this fundamental concept that exists in our society today. I have a feeling that for the more rational people, this is going to depend greatly on how you define words, so by all means, define them for me! For some of you it's just a feeling, the meaning is self-evident and doesn't need to be defined. Yet you must still justify its existence. Use religion if you must, but I'd prefer some genuine philosophizing on what true love means, how it can exist.

Oh, and it's worth pointing out that even if you've never experienced true love yourself, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist The question is, can it exist for anyone? Or is all love to some degree "not true," i.e. artificial and perhaps conditional and based on self-interest? Would you prefer to use a biological argument? Is it nothing more than basic instincts for the preservation of the species? I tend to think the latter, but that doesn't necessarily deny the value of true love. Do you think true love should take precedence over any other social concerns, or do you think there are social concerns that should always take precedence even over love (and if so, which ones?)

[Judicator]

Should we start by defining false love? If you believe you are experiencing "true love," isn't that good enough to say you are?

Arguably any love is genetically selfish, but this isn't the same kind of conscious, psychological selfishness that we might associate with false love.

[notthecheatr]

Should we start by defining false love? If you believe you are experiencing "true love," isn't that good enough to say you are?

As I said, part of the question is how to define it. Can you really know if it's true? It's hard enough to know if the other person truly loves you, but do you know yourself well enough to know if you truly love them? Would die for them, etc.? (Yes, I'm assuming that true love might - or might not - entail the notion of being willing to die for someone. Not necessarily, but it certainly seems reasonable.)

Somehow I think this is an easier question for men than for women, perhaps based on the instinct that it is the woman who must survive to raise the children. We've only had thousands and thousands of years of hunting and going to war while the women stay home. Instincts die hard, even when women are now considered "equal" to men.

Arguably any love is genetically selfish, but this isn't the same kind of conscious, psychological selfishness that we might associate with false love.

Sounds about right. Like in the last paragraph I typed before, men are more likely to be willing to die for the woman than vice versa (of course this is purely conjecture, and I have no research to prove it) because that is a strategy likely to help our genetic line succeed, perhaps? Although in this day and age it seems like men could just as easily raise his own children, which might explain the fact that we have more "selfish" love today than we did in the past. Again, this is all conjecture - agree with me, or disagree?

[Peter]

I say to my wife, "I love you". She says, "You just think you love me". I say, "So what's your point?"

I'm lucky to have her because I'm no bargain. Is it "true love"? I don't know what that is. I love spending time with her and I can't imagine being without her... that'll have to do.

[Buzz62]

I had an old uncle who'd been married 5 times.
Before he passed away he told me, "Son, love is an abscess of the heart, that grows to a head in the crotch."

Not saying I believe that, but I've always found the sentiment funny.

I've been married 19 years now...to the same Euro-broad.
We've had our fair share of problems, but we keep on keepin' on.

To me, that's love.

[Offeror]

We can love our parents, our wife and children, even our friends, and these could be true love depending on the way a person views things. For some it may be true, and for others it may not. For me I'm not married so I cannot comment on love to one's wife (although I do desire true love), but I love my parents and my brothers and my friends and I always keep myself distanced from money to the extent that it doesn't become more important than human beings ever.

I love but I consciously make an effort not to expect too much from them in return. So, even one way traffic is fine with me. If I truly love someone then his or her reaction should be irrelevant IMO.

[Muckraker]

Subjectively, I would say True Love only exists for hormonally imbalanced teens and unimaginative adults. But that subjective view is from the perspective of a person incapable of experiencing, for anything or anyone, what other people claim is "passion."

Objectively, I think the concept of True Love creates a false dichotomy that screws up people's lives - and is generally depressing. True doesn't exist and all the people that settled on close-to-true will drop their lives and families if something that seems more true comes along. It's selfish, shortsighted, subjective, and it scars and emotionally burdens the children and victims of untrue love. And if they don't give in and abandon their near-love life for the truer-love life then aren't they living a lie?

Objectively, a True Love that exists in a concrete non-subjective sense is incredibly depressing. What happens when two twenty-somethings find True Love and one of them dies shortly thereafter? Is the living person stuck in the prison of True Love for seventy years? How does the replacement near-love feel about being second best?

What happens when law forbids True Love between people or groups of people? What happens when one person is in True Love with someone who is not?

It's depressing because it would be another example of how a handful of elite people live the good life while everyone else settles for second best and screw up perfectly fine, second best lives (not only their own lives) as they claw for the best.

It's a good thing that, objectively, True Love does not exist. It would be even better if the subjective concept of True Love just disappeared altogether from the minds of humans.

[Anguspure]

I say to my wife, "I love you". She says, "You just think you love me". I say, "So what's your point?"

When my wife asks me, "Do you love me?", I have often responded:"Do I?"

[Judicator]

As I said, part of the question is how to define it. Can you really know if it's true? It's hard enough to know if the other person truly loves you, but do you know yourself well enough to know if you truly love them? Would die for them, etc.? (Yes, I'm assuming that true love might - or might not - entail the notion of being willing to die for someone. Not necessarily, but it certainly seems reasonable.)

Somehow I think this is an easier question for men than for women, perhaps based on the instinct that it is the woman who must survive to raise the children. We've only had thousands and thousands of years of hunting and going to war while the women stay home. Instincts die hard, even when women are now considered "equal" to men.


Sounds about right. Like in the last paragraph I typed before, men are more likely to be willing to die for the woman than vice versa (of course this is purely conjecture, and I have no research to prove it) because that is a strategy likely to help our genetic line succeed, perhaps? Although in this day and age it seems like men could just as easily raise his own children, which might explain the fact that we have more "selfish" love today than we did in the past. Again, this is all conjecture - agree with me, or disagree?

Can you really know anything? If you are confident in your ability to differentiate true statements and false statements, then if someone says they love you, why not just take that at face value?

Men and women both practice some levels of infidelity, although I think generally speaking men are more promiscuous than women. So if you take "true love" to mean monogamy only then women have the upper hand there.

I disagree that cultural norms would have any impact on genetic predispositions. Then again with all of that stuff about epigenetics maybe that's going to change.

[ruksak]

Should we start by defining false love?

People do this all the time. They enter a new relationship and sure enough, it happens, "I love you". Have you ever told someone you love them when you know you don't? I have. It feels good to say and it turns the heat up on a relationship. But it also enters one into a binding contract of commitment and monogamy. Now if you leave them you're a piece of shit that screwed her/him over.

True love doesn't die without cause. If it was true love, you don't just fall out of love because you got bored or were titillated to be with someone else. No one compares with your true love, so, you would never leave this person unless they had done something to force you to.

My ex-wife was my true love. I didn't stop loving her until she had made such a fool out of me for trying to get her back for years after the divorce. She had to hurt me repeatedly in such a treacherous manner before the love died, and it took years. Not before or since have I allowed a woman to make a fool out of me, so its not that I'm the pathetic, spineless type.

I truly love my daughter, so I would let her make a fool of me. She would have to stab me into a coma and set everything I own on fire before I would even think of not loving her.

[BlackSheep]

I simply think there is love. If it stands the test of time people call it true love i guess. The thing is love is only part of the connection two people have. There needs to be compatibly and common interests and communication.
I would have to say that if I had to define true love it would be love plus these things.

[Anguspure]

There is confusion on this subject because we are not very good at recognising the difference between a benevolant feeling, erotic passion, the need for relationship and a sacrificial act of will.
We ask whether someone loves us because we feel the need for people to relate to us in a benevolant way. Similarly we feel love for another because they are attractive and benevolant towards us. The truth is however that these feelings are fleeting animal emotions.
When the we and the subject of our love no longer dance in emotional symphony, for whatever reason, the emotion fails and we no longer feel the love.
Emotional love in this respect, as beautiful as it is, should not be viewed as true love because it is unable to be sustained in any meaningful way without a continual act of will to inject the relationship with attractivness.
At this point it is the sacrificial act of will that sustains the relationship and in fact may allow the rekindling of the former feelings.
It is the sacrificial act of will that I would contend is true Love.

John 15:13 (NIV) Greater love (agapē) has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.