Black or white? Or gray all over?

[Apeman81]

On another thread lsbskins1 spoke of her disdain for those who "oversimplify" things, claiming this would lead us to believe that any issue could be solved by a kindergarten class.

I countered that others' myself included, disdain the trend to claim complication in many things, which I contend gives excuse to the masses not to address the issues.

So this thread addresses these notions.

I believe that the "shades of gray" argument is advanced who cannot or will not deal with the reality of a black and white world.

At the base of any decision, any answer are the two actual responses: Yes or No. Maybe is the lack of an answer.

The Shades of gray argument proceeds from the introduction of a string of new factors not included in the original decision, designed to obfuscate in order to change a yes to a no and vice versa, which is then fallaciously used to support the non response of maybe.

I welcome comment and debate as you may see fit

[Peter]

With any issue or problem I always attempt to simplify it at first just to see if it even has a simple answer. Complicating things too quickly is a sure way to become paralyzed with indecison. Boil it down to it's essence and then one by one attempt to add the complication while still getting an answer.

[Dodds]

They way I see it is the black and white becomes grey. The debates raise areas where cooperation is necessary and therefore complicating the issue.

[lsbskins1]

In response to the specific question posed in the other thread:

Well, there are text book costs and physical facility costs and the cost of having guidance counselors and the administration and the cooks and the janitors and the cost of the athletic programs and the lawyers, etc cet, ad infinitum. And the answer is rarely, simply, more money. The complicated truth is that the answer is likely different for every single school district. Some are awash in funds, others are not. Some are plagued with an inability to attract stable populations of teachers, others are not. Some suffer from local graft bleeding the treasury, others do not.

My point is, there is almost never a single, sweeping solution to these kinds of issues. No Child Left Behind sounded so simple. Hold teachers accountable. Simple, good! Lets do it. But, how to you hold a teacher whose student base is a majority of poor, rural kids with parents barely squeeking by, working two and three jobs, to the same standard you hold the teachers teaching a student base populated by upper-middle class kids whose parents have the time and inclination to read to them every night when they are young, pay for tutors when they are older and whose school district is one of those awash in funds that have lap tops for every student in class? Like I said, complicated, not simple.

[Apeman81]

They way I see it is the black and white becomes grey. The debates raise areas where cooperation is necessary and therefore complicating the issue.

I retain that the actual black and white remains black and white.

Cooperation may well require that some Black may need to be accepted to reach a consensus, but the black remains black. Example

The "cooperation" required during the formation of the U.S. Constitution required that the enumeration of of the people for the purposes of representation would include 3/5s of "other person" Read slaves

Was it black that slave be counted for representation, seeing as the had none? Certainly. Did it cease to be black once the cooperation based compromise was reached? No. It remained black as was eventually done away with.

[Dodds]

I retain that the actual black and white remains black and white.

Cooperation may well require that some Black may need to be accepted to reach a consensus, but the black remains black. Example

The "cooperation" required during the formation of the U.S. Constitution required that the enumeration of of the people for the purposes of representation would include 3/5s of "other person" Read slaves

Was it black that slave be counted for representation, seeing as the had none? Certainly. Did it cease to be black once the cooperation based compromise was reached? No. It remained black as was eventually done away with.

After a war and a lot of complex negotiations. Hence the black and white issue of slavery became very grey indeed.

A quote I remember from a documentary on the American civil war from a poor confederate soldier when asked why he was fighting as obviously he was not rich enough to be a slave owner. , "I fight em because they are down here".

Thats adding complexity to the issue its self and that becomes a grey area in the whole reason for the war.

[pbxilixdq]

The problem is usually the question, not the answer.

An answer can only be as specific as the question itself.

If you ask a vague question you can't expect anything other than a vague answer.

If you ask a specific question with all loose strings accounted for, then you can expect a specific answer with all loose strings accounted for. (hopefully)

Gray questions have gray answers. Black and white questions have black and white answers.

[lsbskins1]

I retain that the actual black and white remains black and white.

Cooperation may well require that some Black may need to be accepted to reach a consensus, but the black remains black. Example

The "cooperation" required during the formation of the U.S. Constitution required that the enumeration of of the people for the purposes of representation would include 3/5s of "other person" Read slaves

Was it black that slave be counted for representation, seeing as the had none? Certainly. Did it cease to be black once the cooperation based compromise was reached? No. It remained black as was eventually done away with.

In some cases this is plainly true. But, even when it is plainly true, the issue can still be complicated by the fact that for some people, still, black is white and white is black. Has the KKK and their attitude that blacks are lesser, disappeared from existence? Perhaps, in the long run, people will come to the opinion that Mexican nationals who were stopped at gun point at the border were as unfairly treated as those 3/5ths blacks were. But, you will not, in the next 20 years, convince the Minutemen at the border that they are on the "black" side of history. That renders any solution to be far from simple. One must consider the human rights and needs of the poor people looking for a better life, the wants and needs of American citizens who must compete with the wage levels of the poor seeking a better life, the demands of the business population that benefit from depressed wages, the demands of professionals who are employed with trying to mitigate the issues between all sides. Nobody's interests are the same, and what is "black" for one, seems "white" to another.

[Apeman81]

In response to the specific question posed in the other thread:

Well, there are text book costs and physical facility costs and the cost of having guidance counselors and the administration and the cooks and the janitors and the cost of the athletic programs and the lawyers, etc cet, ad infinitum. And the answer is rarely, simply, more money. The complicated truth is that the answer is likely different for every single school district. Some are awash in funds, others are not. Some are plagued with an inability to attract stable populations of teachers, others are not. Some suffer from local graft bleeding the treasury, others do not.

My point is, there is almost never a single, sweeping solution to these kinds of issues. No Child Left Behind sounded so simple. Hold teachers accountable. Simple, good! Lets do it. But, how to you hold a teacher whose student base is a majority of poor, rural kids with parents barely squeeking by, working two and three jobs, to the same standard you hold the teachers teaching a student base populated by upper-middle class kids whose parents have the time and inclination to read to them every night when they are young, pay for tutors when they are older and whose school district is one of those awash in funds that have lap tops for every student in class? Like I said, complicated, not simple.

For the sake of argument, we will not address the morass of problems invoked by the use of state run, federally influenced, public school systems. This will remove the need to provide actual solutions to the issues and address the example.

Within your post is a fine example of shades of gray argument.

" But, how to you hold a teacher whose student base is a majority of poor, rural kids with parents barely squeeking by, working two and three jobs, to the same standard you hold the teachers teaching a student base populated by upper-middle class kids whose parents have the time and inclination to read to them every night when they are young, pay for tutors when they are older and whose school district is one of those awash in funds that have lap tops for every student in class?"

The multiple conditions injected distract from the base question. They introduce unnecessary variables to the central question, erecting a wall of confusion that shield the actual question: Are the teachers providing an adequate level of effort to teach the students in their class?

Is that a valid question? Yes. Can it be objectively measured? Yes. Is the use of standardized testing of the students the best tool to measure it? No. Direct observation of the efforts of the teacher, their adherence to the currently approved materials, their adaptation to the dynamics and needs of the students as a group and as individuals, and their willingness to avail themselves of variable teaching methodology are the proper tools to evaluate the teacher’

Thus, when the onion is peeled to the actual question, we see that black and white emerges.

[Apeman81]

After a war and a lot of complex negotiations. Hence the black and white issue of slavery became very grey indeed.

A quote I remember from a documentary on the American civil war from a poor confederate soldier when asked why he was fighting as obviously he was not rich enough to be a slave owner. , "I fight em because they are down here".

Thats adding complexity to the issue its self and that becomes a grey area in the whole reason for the war.

At what point did the enumeration of at any level of a slave for the purposes of representation cease to be black?

[Dodds]

At what point did the enumeration of at any level of a slave for the purposes of representation cease to be black?

If you look at the example of the confederate soldier, the situation was not about the black and white issue of slavery, it became about another issue which muddied up the whole argument. Those being the grey areas in the debate.

[Apeman81]

The problem is usually the question, not the answer.

An answer can only be as specific as the question itself.

If you ask a vague question you can't expect anything other than a vague answer.

If you ask a specific question with all loose strings accounted for, then you can expect a specific answer with all loose strings accounted for. (hopefully)

Gray questions have gray answers. Black and white questions have black and white answers.

I would posit that gray question have no answer, as the attempted answer changes upon introduction of further "gray" conditions. If that is what you mean by a gray answer, we agree

And that is the nugget of this thread. We must stop allowing others to limit us to arguing gray questions, thus changing nothing, and force them to address the black and white they hide within