American Empire?

[Matt W]

Lose, we already have an empire, and best of all your nation helped create it. Ha

Quite. Talk to me again in 500 years...actually, no, make it 100....and let's compare notes. At the moment your 'empire' is nothing but hot air. :rolleyes:

[swordsman]

Quote by: Matt W Quite. Talk to me again in 500 years...actually, no, make it 100....and let's compare notes. At the moment your 'empire' is nothing but hot air. :rolleyes:

In your opinion, but I believe modern empire is NOT a case of a powerful state controlling other nations business, but rather one nation having a global sphere of influence and the ability to implement their own goals and interest anywhere at a moments notice. Im surprised its a englishman in this debate, take a look outside and count up the american bases in all those european countries, laugh to yourself and rethink your position. Our empire began before even the revolution, remember America was only 13 states...the other states came from France, England, and Spain all empires, all forced to sell. The rest of the states are flat out conquest from Mexico and Canada(like texas and Ohio Valley/Washington) even hawaii was conquered by american citizens. America became 10000 times larger than your island by conquest and money exchanging hands, that sound like an empire to me.
Point is is you do not need to wait 500 years, just look back 300 and you'll realize that your nation nursed us though it all. WWII just solidified our power, it gave us the launching points we needed to enforce our will globally.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: swordsman In your opinion, but I believe modern empire is NOT a case of a powerful state controlling other nations business, but rather one nation having a global sphere of influence and the ability to implement their own goals and interest anywhere at a moments notice. Im surprised its a englishman in this debate, take a look outside and count up the american bases in all those european countries, laugh to yourself and rethink your position. Our empire began before even the revolution, remember America was only 13 states...the other states came from France, England, and Spain all empires, all forced to sell. The rest of the states are flat out conquest from Mexico and Canada(like texas and Ohio Valley/Washington) even hawaii was conquered by american citizens. America became 10000 times larger than your island by conquest and money exchanging hands, that sound like an empire to me. Point is is you do not need to wait 500 years, just look back 300 and you'll realize that your nation nursed us though it all. WWII just solidified our power, it gave us the launching points we needed to enforce our will globally.

Yes, I can see just how you are enforcing your will upon China and Russia. Or Somalia. Hell, you failed to even bully Germany into agreeing to your war, and you have massive bases there. What kind of empire can't even get it's client states to vocally give it's support?

You are an empire, but governing the most shambolic of empires. Even the Hapsburgs would be embarrased.

[swordsman]

Quote by: G. Adams Yes, I can see just how you are enforcing your will upon China and Russia. Or Somalia. Hell, you failed to even bully Germany into agreeing to your war, and you have massive bases there. What kind of empire can't even get it's client states to vocally give it's support? You are an empire, but governing the most shambolic of empires. Even the Hapsburgs would be embarrased.

Thats actually funny, I dont think we forced anyone into war. The allies that did come, like your nation, have their own agenda and their own reasoning for fighting, and I promise its not freedom. They came willingly with their hands out.

I didnt no that russia and china were the type of allies to send troops. How could I have overlooked those two, that was ridiculous. As far as Somalia, dont blame this administration for another presidents tendency to turn tale and run from a conflict and launch missiles from 2000 miles off. And what would you have somalia send? Atomic slingshots?

And finally your right germany isnt backing us, however their bases are more active now with american personnel than theyve been since the cold war. Germany may not have sent 50000 troops but they did the next best thing. And Germany would have been there if they got permission from France.
What kind of empire does what, thats a good question, go ask Tony Blair, our most loyal ally.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: swordsman Thats actually funny, I dont think we forced anyone into war. The allies that did come, like your nation, have their own agenda and their own reasoning for fighting, and I promise its not freedom. They came willingly with their hands out. I didnt no that russia and china were the type of allies to send troops. How could I have overlooked those two, that was ridiculous. As far as Somalia, dont blame this administration for another presidents tendency to turn tale and run from a conflict and launch missiles from 2000 miles off. And what would you have somalia send? Atomic slingshots? And finally your right germany isnt backing us, however their bases are more active now with american personnel than theyve been since the cold war. Germany may not have sent 50000 troops but they did the next best thing. And Germany would have been there if they got permission from France. What kind of empire does what, thats a good question, go ask Tony Blair, our most loyal ally.

You didn't force anyone to join your war, which demonstrates precisely how poor an empire you run.

No, Russia and China arn't the types to send troops unless aboslutely neccesary. They don't share your imperial ambitions, nor do they wish to advance your national interest at the expense of the international order.

When did I blame this administration for what happened in Somalia? I was criticising the US state, which has largely pursued the same goals for the last sixty years.

Germany is more powerful than France, they don't need anyone's permission. However, the German government does care about what there public think, and they thought this was an example of American expansionism. And if your state shares your sentiments, the suspicions of the German, and European, public were right. Moreover, Germany cares about international law and order. They possess the foresight to understand how dangerous a precedent is being set by pre-emptive action.

[swordsman]

G. Adams

Why do you have to force a nation to fight? Apparently more than enough entered the coalition.

As far as Russia and China, I didnt mean I expect them to send troops, weve never been on great terms with them.
Why did you bring up somalia?

Expansionism, I thought we justed ousted a dictator, or has the media completely wiped that out of the worlds memory. Or do you think the Iraqis were better in his hands?

[Chris]

Quote by: swordsman America became 10000 times larger than your island by conquest and money exchanging hands, that sound like an empire to me.

Not exactly 10,000 times larger :rolleyes:

United Kingdom 244,820 sq km
United States 9,629,091 sq km

9629091/244820=39.33

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004379.html

[G. Adams]

Quote by: swordsman G. Adams Why do you have to force a nation to fight? Apparently more than enough entered the coalition. As far as Russia and China, I didnt mean I expect them to send troops, weve never been on great terms with them. Why did you bring up somalia? Expansionism, I thought we justed ousted a dictator, or has the media completely wiped that out of the worlds memory. Or do you think the Iraqis were better in his hands?

Britain entered into the war because our government spineless and it's leader deluded with a messiah complex. Just an addition, no leader in modern times has used his military on as many missions within such a short time span as Tony Blair has. There are five main ones-2xIraq, 1 Afghanistan, 1 Bosnia, 1 Sierra Leone. He has also set them to East Timor and the Congo as part of international groups. This all within eight years.

As for the other governments - Italy, Australia and Spain are/were ran by right wing nuts who adore Bush. Poland still likes you. Okay, now who else made a real contribution? Bugger all, and this lot hardly sent a jot compared to the British and US deployments.

I brought up Somalia, as well as Russia & China, as 3 of many illustrations of where you do not have global dominance.

What does ousting a dictator have to do with expansionism? I'm sure Napoleon ousted many pretty nasty autocrats too but it doesn't mean he wasn't an expansionist.

Where the Iraqi's better under Saddam? As compared to what, the life under foreign occupation? Most probably, at least there wern't bombs going off every five seconds. In his entire reign Saddam killed around 750 000 of his own people. That really is a horiffic body count. The occupation had claimed the lives of over 100 000 by sometime last year (whenever it was The Lancet released those figures). If we knew how many civilians were killed in the second attempt to take Fallujah, no doubt it would be higher. So in that 2 years you've managed to kill over 13% of Saddams total. If this keeps up, you'll be able to beat his record in about 8 years. Go team!

[swordsman]

G Adams

Body count, there is no count how many Saddam killed, we find mass graves all the time. Oh and they would have been better off, because terrorist detonate bombs to scare them into submission. You brought up Napoleon, well let me give you a history lesson: The battle of britain is raging and the nazi goal is to break the will of the english people, to break them...same situation, should you all have given in or is that just muslims. That entire argument was crap, we are not the ones settting off bombs everyday and even when a few citizens die it is still better that Saddam getting upset and killing 30000 at a time. Or was that an example "body count."
If Blair is off fighting a crusade, that is your problem...the US had nothing to do with that. I dont even no or care where Siera Leon is.
As far as E. Timor and the Congo, would you say that genocide is not a good enough excuse to deploy his majesty's soldiers?
Allies, well I guess we had enough after all right?

[G. Adams]

Quote by: swordsman G Adams Body count, there is no count how many Saddam killed, we find mass graves all the time. Oh and they would have been better off, because terrorist detonate bombs to scare them into submission. You brought up Napoleon, well let me give you a history lesson: The battle of britain is raging and the nazi goal is to break the will of the english people, to break them...same situation, should you all have given in or is that just muslims. That entire argument was crap, we are not the ones settting off bombs everyday and even when a few citizens die it is still better that Saddam getting upset and killing 30000 at a time. Or was that an example "body count." If Blair is off fighting a crusade, that is your problem...the US had nothing to do with that. I dont even no or care where Siera Leon is. As far as E. Timor and the Congo, would you say that genocide is not a good enough excuse to deploy his majesty's soldiers? Allies, well I guess we had enough after all right?

Yup, it sure is hard to tell how many Saddam killed, he didn't keep records because he didn't care about their lives and probably didn't want other finding out exactly how terrible a man he was. Huh, tell me, why are the allies not counting how many they kill?

The Nazi goal was not to break the will of the English people, but of the British people. Take a fucking geography lesson, I beg you. As for your point, no, the British people should not have given up repelling the invasion. Just as the Marquis in France should not have given up against the Nazi's. Just as the many nationalists trying to throw out the allied inavders of Iraq shouldn't give up either. I don't who you are or what bullshit excuse, if anyone invaded my country, killed hundreds of thousands of my compatriots and tortured so many more, you deserve you ass handed back to you with a big shiney bootprint on it.

The fact you don't know, nor care, where Sierra Leone is tells me every I need to know about you. This'll be my final response to you. It's fun to take the piss out of the monkeys in the zoo for a while, but eventually I just get bored. Besides, they can't help being monkeys.

[swordsman]

G. Adams

Ok first off, if it were nationalist forces in Iraq id understand, but they are foreign and you wouldnt no that I guess from the BBC. Second I dont give a damn about whether you call yourself english or british, thats your problem. Im pretty sure if the nazi broke the will of the british, whoever the you say the english are would have been just as broken.

Sierra Leon is your problem, dont get upset because you cannot sort that out, and definitely do not blame the mistakes of blair on bush. You dont wanna debate anymore, thats great because, your full of shit. Those despicable allied soldiers who are being killed by those heroic nationalist forces are your countrymen as well. I think you are the first person to actually call terorist heroes, congrats!

[Matt W]

Ok first off, if it were nationalist forces in Iraq id understand, but they are foreign and you wouldnt no that I guess from the BBC.

What, the BBC, informed, unbiased, etc, giving out accurate information? There's a shocker.... :rolleyes:

Second I dont give a damn about whether you call yourself english or british, thats your problem. Im pretty sure if the nazi broke the will of the british, whoever the you say the english are would have been just as broken.

You should - try and learn something about other countries. Otherwise we'll start calling you British - because, as you obviously seem to think, there's no real differences...

Sierra Leon is your problem, dont get upset because you cannot sort that out, and definitely do not blame the mistakes of blair on bush.

Yup, it is. And we sorted it out. It's only when we get involved with Americans that problems seem to emerge.... :rolleyes: